Comment by joecool1029 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by joecool1029 | Hacker News Reader

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Unlike most of the other commenters I have personal experience fighting a college administration in court. It was a massive time waste and I came out losing a years of my academic career where they lost nothing (money is absolutely not a factor for a large university, nor is stalling court proceedings to waste your life). I'm not even allowed to elaborate deeply on what it was about, the settlement for putting it behind me was a binding NDA.

This isn't advice it's just a story about what happened to me, to give you an idea of how things *could* go for you:

What I did to warrant initial sanctioning by my college was filing a witness statement describing a petty disorderly offense another student did. Apparently the college didn't like that I filed a statement with the police and it did not go through their internal system. The school placed a hold and I contacted my dean by email. I was told by the dean, in writing, that I was not being sanctioned but the hold would remain until I attended a hearing to describe the incident as prescribed in the handbook. When I went to this 'procedural hearing' with the other witness, they brought us in one at a time in front of representatives of the student body and the administration. At the end of my account they told me I would receive their decision and sanctions by mail. They issued formal academic sanctions and created a remediation plan not unlike what they are requesting of you.

I retained a lawyer at this point and ended up filing a complaint in civil. There's nothing speedy here, judges stalled, the school stalled. Almost 2 years went by and we finally had the lawyers draft a settlement that made it possible to pursue college again. In the meanwhile they increased the sanctions on the remaining witness that didn't sue in order to retaliate. The student we filed the statement about, apparently the school couldn't touch since the police charged him. He got off paying a ticket and no other sanctions, last I heard he was in postgrad for mathematics and doing well for himself.

Unlike most of hte other commentators I also have personal experience fighting a college administration -- and winning. By threatening lawyers, too.

I got into an Honors Study Abroad thing through the school, but was worried about an incomplete grade screwing up my GPA or causing issues. Emailed the admin about it + study abroad office -- they said all good, it's kosher.

Turns out it wasn't, and after dropping 41k to lock in housing and study abroad they told me I couldn't go because I couldn't transfer credits. Well here is a lesson in "keep your emails" cuz I dug that out and picked a fight with the administration.

They eventually gave me all of my money back minus the $600 non-refundable deposit. I was ready to go to the mat for that, too, but they offered to get me a guaranteed slot for on campus housing and permanent first crack at class selection similar to athletes and disabled students. I was sick of commuting by that point and took the offer. I figured out it was a way to get more money out of me pretty quickly -- solve an issue and make money via housing -- but my RA in the on-campus apartments was super cool and basically let me and a roommate squat for multiple summers. Still friends with a lot of those folks I met living on campus too.

Worked out okay, all things considered. Lawyers won't be a guaranteed win, but don't assume that just giving up is a better deal.

Thanks for speaking up. The internet talks about getting a lawyer like it’s a magic (and free) button you press to resolve a situation.

It’s not, and in some cases it can turn your problem into a more expensive and protracted different problem if you’re not careful.

I’d be especially cautious around a University that has already proven itself to have bureaucratic people who will turn small issues into threats of expulsion. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have legal counsel who is equally overstaffed and itching for something to do.

It is usually free and kind of magical to talk to a lawyer, though.

"You can beat the rap, but not the ride".

I am still dealing with a case with a 3 letter agency, going on 6 years now. "Bureaucratic violence" is a thing.

I didn't have it quite as bad as you, but I did go to war once with my alma mater regarding a particularly small lab director and part-time instructor who had a Napoleon complex going on. He was directly and obviously infringing on student's First Amendment rights, not to mention bullying the class as a whole and attempting to threaten people. Ironically, his heart was in the right place, but his execution was way off.

I was fortunate in that I went to college much later in life, after a career in the military, and as I'd had enough bullshit there, I made the conscious choice not to tolerate any out in the world.

Long story short, he and I butt heads. Then he wanted to take up to the Department head. For someone with a Ph.D., she definitely didn't think it through, just proving you can have a Ph.D., even in a STEM field, and not be too fucking bright... but... when it got to the Dean of Students, and the campus's VA liaison all sat down for a meeting with me, and I started pointing out that F.I.R.E. would have a field day with this, and would we really want a veteran-led incident on campus with a lab director that's flat out admitted in recorded interviews (I was attending college in a one-party recording state, so I had recordings of every one of these meetings) that he doesn't care about students' First Amendment rights??

That put everything into perspective really damn quick. I have never forgot that meeting because there, in that moment, we all looked at each other and everyone understood exactly what I was saying. The Dean of Students stood up and said, "Do you want to apologize to the department dean...?" and I just raised one eyebrow and he immediately shot back, "Right... we should probably all let this go." I nodded and said, "I think that'd be the best option for everyone involved, after you guys sit down with Lab Director and straighten him out."

I've done some things I'm not too particularly proud of in my life, but this was one time I really felt like I did the right thing.

The First Amendement limits what the US Congress/government can do, not what a private person can do.

> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If parent went to a state school, that is the government. If he went to a private school, FIRE goes after them for violating their own contracts that often mirror 1A language.

That's a wild oversimplification, it of course applies to state and local governments as well and has for a long time. A public university is a state entity.

If your college or university accepts money from the government, in public spaces on that campus, like say... anywhere outdoors, for instance, out on the quad, where this happened, that is considered a protected area for speech.

Please familiarize yourself with the various ways higher education comes under the umbrella of “state actor.”

Funnily enough, today I am I am (re)starting my post secondary education after a decade and counting in the military.

Your comment reminds me of one of the misconceptions that friends have of me/military. I am not as it happens a particularly good shot/fighter/camper/adventurer. However the military has more then prepared me to wade through a bureaucratic swamp to tell a room full of people paid more then me that they're wrong and will fight to the proverbial death over it.

That being said, other then some culture shock, not expecting anything too dramatic, ought to be a good time really.

I'm always curious in cases like these what the actual exercise of your "first amendment rights" was that the other person took offense to.

Made fun of a post-doc lab instructor that was under the lab director's purview.

I shit you not. He got upset that someone was - verbally - making fun of this guy. He was a goofy as fuck guy, so I see why 18-22 year olds would do that. I wouldn't because he was a good guy with a good heart, he just looked goofy, acted goofy, and plain old WAS goofy, but that's not enough for me to make fun of someone.

It is enough, actually, but I would never do it maliciously, and I would always do it to someone's face, and it would always... always be good-natured, not intentionally cruel.

That's a mafia with extra steps

Welcome to the US justice system

Wow this sounds like extortion to me.. I mean not just from the school, but also in the court system. I don't really understand Academia much or if this would effect a person attending another collage, but with something like this, I would drop out of college entirely and take the self-teaching route or online education. I'm not going to allow myself to be subjected to an abusive educational and court system.

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