I hope their compensation is a little more than $10 a day! By the looks of the fire, those guys/gals are heros.
This was a big deal after the Camp and Complex fires because of some viral articles that drew well justified outrage among Californians so they went a step above and just allowed them to expunge their records completely (so that they can get hired everywhere else too, they don’t have to become fire fighters).
There are some stipulations like the sentence they served must be at most 8 years, but they’re not all banned from continuing their work.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fires-set-by-firefig...
I'm honestly surprised at the downvotes. I thought this was common knowledge.
That seems really really low!
Also, arson convictions are extremely rare. Most arsons are unsolved.
You can imagine how much more likely it is to be unsolved if the person investigating is also setting the fires
We sanction Chinese companies for using prison labor in their products because it's ethically wrong. We shouldn't be engaging in the same practice we sanction other countries for.
Depending on slave labor from prisoners also creates a conflict of interests for society because it creates incentives to imprison people rather than prevent crime. It should never be a smart financial move to imprison your citizens.
"In prison" is doing a lot of work there.
> And the state can't afford to pay them fully.
Then the state can't afford to be on fire. An externality that isn't accounted for.
> Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane.
I'm really shocked to hear someone just casually say slavery in the United States in 2025 isn't insane. I mean it's legal so maybe I am the crazy one but I'm personally troubled that this practice is going on. I don't even like that my state uses prison labor for license plates and that's not life threatening.
IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is a restricted privilege that prisoners actively seek and compete for.
It is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.
Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different.
> It it is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative.
Yep, no objection from me.
> I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.
To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free.
The incentives here are perverse. The worse prison conditions are the more "appealing" still-awful conditions become. Access to free labor creates an incentive for the state to create more of that labor. Rehabilitation becomes a threat to the practitioners.
I think the biggest difference is that you believe there is a choice and I don't think that choice is meaningful.
I guess if you don’t consider prison labor to be slavery then it might be palatable but I just can’t draw that distinction. Especially given the history.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St...
Nobody is claiming picking bunks means they're not a prisoner. It's still a free choice among bunks
Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?
A person who is forced to do work.
> Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what?
They are slaves as long as they are forced to work.
> What would make them not slaves?
Not being forced to work.
> Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?
I have no idea where you got this impression. If you need it spelled out then no, I am not opposed to all forms of punishment.
Makes perfect sense to me, even if the prison was a five-star hotel. The human mind is hard-wired to want to explore and get out. Universally, one of the most difficult parts of being in prison is being forced to stay within the prison walls. The fact that these walls exist is a necessary compromise between keeping society safe and the natural rights of those imprisoned. Any opportunity to get outside the walls will of course be desirable.
We also have a self preservation instinct.
This difference in perception is what prison labor exploits in prisoners.
Your argument is a fine hypothesis, but I think it falls apart in the data.
It's the benefit of promised freedom early that is in play. Not that prison is unendurable (many endure it). It's that freedom is preferable. The entire point of prison after all.
Given the recurring history of California prisons being found (systematically, not just in cases involving special mistreatment of individual prisoners) in violation of the 8th Amendment and the way that has been the main driver of California prison reform over the years, that's not a minor issue.
It is literally not in California (though which work, within bounds that differ by prisoner, may be), and California this year defeated a ballot proposition which would have made your claim true.
“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
Trade-offs are different in all sorts of situations. All choices in life have consequence. The fact that one is better than the other does not negate anything or create slavery
At some point you have to draw a line and say, there is choice, but there's not enough choice to say it's not slavery.
It is slavery because the State requires prisoners to work for the benefit of the State (though there are some choices of what form of work), punishes them additionally for not working, economically exploits that work, and has (through all four branches of government, including the people exercising their power to legislate directly) worked to maintain that condition, and in many cases the prison firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it.
Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen.
Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight.
>firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it.
Cited by a proponent of maintaining prison populations, or cited as allegations against such a system?
>Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen.
What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation?
If the proposition was passed, and the State acted in accord with it (as I stated before, not just the passage, but the action), then the labor would not be coerced, because the mechanisms by which it is currently coerced would be prohibited.
That was the whole point of the amendment, banning California continuing to exploit the penal servitude exception to the 13th Amendment ban on slavery and involuntary servitude.
Forced prison labor is legal in California. This means if a prisoner refuses to work they can be punished for that refusal. This could be with solitary confinement or revoking or removing good behavior benefits.
> Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight.
Firefight maybe but 40% of California’s prisoners work. A choice in what type of labor doesn’t change the fact that this is slavery.
How do you distinguish incarceration from slavery?
What is happening in California is indentured servitude. I consider that to be a form of slavery. The labor is precisely what makes it slavery.
> How do you distinguish incarceration from slavery?
The compulsory uncompensated labor.
If prisoners received a fair wage and work was optional then I would have no objection. But they don’t receive a fair wage and working is not optional. Thus the prisoners are enslaved.
I dont think it is unreasonable to expect non-voluntary labor to be included as part of a normal sentence. Ideally this non-voluntary work would be limited to supporting prison operations (e.g. cooking, cleaning, upkeep, ect). This work offsets the substantial costs of their incarceration to society and is part of the punishment.
I think it is also reasonable to offer fully voluntary service outside of the prison if it benefits society at large. I think it is reasonable to view this as accelerated restitution to society for their crimes, and reward it with earlier release and additional benefits.
I think the main area where we might agree is preventing the prison (or state) from selling their labor for the benefit of a 3rd party.
Overall, I would like to see the expansion of productive prison labor where possible to provide social benefit (for example cleaning up litter, ect.)
Taking the option away doesn't help anyone.
Except firefighters, prisoners, and society.
Everyone is better off.
Firefighters get additional support combating a huge problem, prisoners get shorter sentences, in society gets better fire prevention leading to fewer lives and Land Lost
Prisoners have to do dangerous work and suffer long term health consequences for no compensation. Reduced sentences don’t count because the base sentence can be set to whatever the state requires to meet slave labor demands.
Society loses because slave labor artificially reduces the cost of natural disasters. If slave labor is required to make an area safe for habitation then I submit that is not a safe place for habitation.
The ends do not justify the means.
At the end of the day, I dont think each of the things you said are true. I dont think there is wage competition, I dont think the state is setting sentences based on labor demands, and I dont think there is an impact to locations of habitation.
These two Wikipedia pages show examples of why I don’t think this practice is ethical.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St...
However, I do agree that the moral hazards are too great around combining it with for-profit prisons and corporations.
I think the one area where I would find private employment acceptable is work release programs at market rate, provided the pay goes to the prisoners instead of the state. I think these programs should be expanded, and could help with child support, victim restitution, and stability upon release.