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Comment by slurgfest | Hacker News Reader

If some black girls want to code, what possible reason do you have to object? Let them. Leave them alone, if you aren't supportive. That's all you need to do.

The group isn't preventing white people from coding. If you want white people to code, you can make your own group. And it will fly really well anywhere in the South and many places in the West and you won't have to say anything about how it's only for white people, there are a hundred ways that can be signaled.

Again, if you want to help boys specifically - I actually think that's an important target for 'affirmative action' because boys are falling so far behind in academic achievement. Do it. Good for you.

And good for the people trying to help black girls

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So if I started a charity called WhiteMenCode, do you think that it would be fair to all of the other races and genders? Would it be fair that one segment of the impoverished get special treatment? Surely it would be better to organise something like PoorPeopleCode, since that is the segment of society which, in fact, needs help - poor people. Who gives a crap about race or gender? It's bigger than that.

"Surely it would be better to organise something like PoorPeopleCode, since that is the segment of society which, in fact, needs help - poor people."

Women code less than men of the same socioeconomic background. Not everything is about money. Plenty of these girls would make decent livings for themselves in other fields, but thanks to this program, some will find that programming is their true calling. That is a worthwhile effort.

Well...

Not really.

To be COMPLETELY fair, we would need to concede that in this particular demographic...

That is... poor, black children...

NO ONE has a real opportunity to code, male or female. So I think a PoorPeopleCode would have made more sense here.

Having mentioned that, I believe firmly in the principle of people being able to contribute charitably to whatever cause they please. It's just that, quite naturally, there will develop in any culture... well ... let's call them 'preferences'. In India, the government just started an investigation of private schools which forced Dalits to wear different uniforms, stand in the back of classrooms etc. In Indonesia... it's not good to be a Chinese Christian. And... in the US ... I'm not letting anyone in on any secrets when I tell you that you don't want to be a black boy in our school system for instance.

These 'preferences' usually manifest themselves in charitable giving and... VOILA. This doesn't make the charity 'bad', just puts it in line with most of the other charitable giving in the US. Not so much 'bad', as just... 'unexceptional'.

Sorry to be so longwinded. Was just trying to be fair to both sides.

So if I started a charity called WhiteMenCode, do you think that it would be fair to all of the other races and genders?

No, of course that's not fair. White men need very little help coding and getting involved in tech. However people who do need it, should get it.

In the current situation white men don't need any help with this, they already dominate the scene. Not that I really mind, I am a white man.

But you could easily implement this plan and be lauded just by naming it something other than WhiteMenCode.

If this were a government welfare program it would be important not to be partial but this is self-help.

I think it would be very laudable to go to very white parts of Appalachia and found HillbilliesCode or whatever you wanted to name it.

Plenty of people give a crap about race and gender. In a way that works against black women.

I got into programming because my dad did it, not because of some rational calculus of my abilities and society's needs. Role models are like that.

At least until the point black women are vastly overrepresented in positions of power in the tech industry, I don't see anything wrong with a black woman programmer acting as a role model for young black women.

If you would also like to set up PoorPeopleCode, nobody is stopping you.

'So if I started a charity called WhiteMenCode, do you think that it would be fair to all of the other races and genders?'

Do white guys need more help in America? Statistically, white men have a higher chance at being well... anything. Actor. Model. CEOs. Executives. Managers. Interracial marriages. Politicians. Lack of racial profiling. White men getting worked up about this is like rich people getting worked up about poor people getting welfare.

That's making the assumption that white people cannot possibly be poor and that black women cannot possibly be rich. I, for one, was poor most of my life and I'm white, albeit not in the US but just across the pond. There are plenty of white people who live in abject poverty. Deprivation of basic needs knows no colour, creed or gender. Why draw lines when it would benefit more people to refrain from doing so?

That's the problem with statistics - they work on large masses and derive means, medians and modes. There are real people who aren't accurately represented by such statistics and making decisions solely on said statistics is unfair to them.

"There are plenty of white people who live in abject poverty."

Sure, but just by being another race, there is very little if any chance for non-white males to do certain things. A feel-good story like Jim Carrey would NEVER happen for a Asian male in America. Heck there was even a survey that found women estimate Asian men would need to earn about $200k to have the same 'status' as a white male. So yes, while being poor sucks for all, but be a poor minority is even worse.

I've heard my Asian friends make similar remarks about a lack of Asians in Hollywood. I see it as mainly a consequence of the fact that A. they don't traditionally view acting as a noble or lucrative career path and B. they only make up a small percentage of the population (4.5%)

I don't think it's that simple. Notice how there are arguably more Asian women in the media (newscasts, roles in movies, fashion shows) than Asian men. I don't think there is a lack of men who want to go into it, I think it's just a lack of demand.

I don't think you're actually reading the words that you're responding to. Saying that "[s]tatistically, white men have a higher chance at being well...everything," does not, in any way, assume "that white people cannot possibly be poor and that black women cannot possibly be rich"

Saying that white men have a better chance of being rich does not imply that white men are never poor.

>That's the problem with statistics - they work on large masses and derive means, medians and modes.

Great lesson, but if what you're saying is that poor people are disadvantaged, the statistics back that up, too. Both of these statements are true:

1) Black people are disadvantaged

2) Poor people are disadvantaged

These are separate problems. A black individual making $60,000 a year still has fewer privileges than a white person making the same.

Maybe you don't think it's as dire a problem as the poor/non-poor problem, but so what? They are still doing something positive. Maybe I think their resources would be better applied to some other problem, but unless I'm going to volunteer to fix it myself, I'll leave them to their work.

> Why draw lines when it would benefit more people to refrain from doing so?

Being rich does not negate all of the issue that people of color face. Class and white privilege are not the same nor mutually exclusive. They are intersectional and related. When a person of color wants to do something to empower other people of color, that doesn't make them a racist. To say that since some people of color are poor means that a program must be for all poor people is a form of moving the goal posts and derailing.

> There are real people who aren't accurately represented by such statistics and making decisions solely on said statistics is unfair to them.

Statistics tell us the same thing people of color do: they are not treated equally and face racial discrimination, micro and macro, all the time. There is a reason why people of color have less access and opportunity to engage in tech.

Do white guys need more help in America?

Some do, yes. Depending on whether your concern is for actual living, breathing individuals, or for statistics and metadata about some collective.

Sure, it's easy to talk about how white men have "privilege" and are "over-represented" in some group, etc., etc., ad infinitum. But somewhere, out there, is a poor white male kid, growing up in some impoverished neighborhood, whose family can't afford a computer, who attends a slummy school with no computer education, and who would absolutely benefit from a "White Boys Code" initiative. And to that individual, all the statistics about white male privilege and over-representation mean bugger-all.

Note: none of this means I'm against the Black Girls Code initiative, BTW. I just think the person who posed the question above about "White guys code" has a point in a way. In this case though, if an individual wants to put their time, effort and resources into helping one specific group, well, that's their right. No one can save the entire world (except Bruce Willis, I guess), so we all have to pick our battles.

No need for scare quotes around "privilege" and "over-represented". These are real things that you can't hand-wave away for the sake of your theoretical exception.

100% agree. Continuing to create division with gender or race biased events/groups doesn't seem helpful. The greater issue here is the disadvantaged at large. Why continue to divide our efforts in smaller niche segments? What's wrong with allowing anyone to join in on these sessions?

A lot of these groups, and their titles, just seem to further stigmatize the segments they're trying to help. True equality will only come when access to information and opportunity are available globally and without bias. Drawing lines in the sand isn't the way to go about change.

> Who gives a crap about race or gender?

Bigots, for one. And beyond that, we all harbor subconscious biases that collectively act to disadvantage certain populations of people.

> Surely it would be better to organise something like PoorPeopleCode

Oh SURELY it would be BETTER. Are you actually physically sitting in a belfry made of ivory right now? Maybe that would be better, if someone had the resources and know-how to make it happen.

But back here in banal reality, how about a black woman starts BlackGirlsCode, and a Latin@ person starts LatinKidsCode, and so on, with each of them using their particular strengths and personal networks, each biting off and fixing a tiny little portion of admittedly larger problems?

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