Comment by voidhorse | Hacker News Reader

Comment by voidhorse | Hacker News Reader

After trying out a bunch of digital zettelkasten tools, I just went back to paper.

This take may be a bit hot, but I actually think paper and pen is already the optimal maxima for thinking—not for retrieval, mind you, but for helping us produce new thoughts. Zettelkasten (at least the way Luhmann used it) is meant for this purpose—it is not a system for storing information and retrieving it but rather for supporting the creation of new connections.

The computer aided tools are suboptimal for this because they lack the good constrains of paper (severely limiting the search space) and the good features (seamless ability to incorporate a variety of representational modes, text, image, equation, with zero overhead, and the ability to organize things freely in space). As much as the digital knowledge base sounds good in theory, I don't think it will ever be as optimal for generation of thought. If all you want to do is summon existing information, digital tools are evidently superior. I personally think a hybrid system where one "thinks" on paper and "archives" digitally (after the thinking is done) might be best, but ultimately, we will be most productive with whatever system we actually enjoy using.

Tried Inkscape? I was all paper for a long time but it's taken over as I've gotten used to it an the hot keys. I carry a little Wacom tablet that works good with it too, but seldom even get it out of my bag.

It does have a (configurable) fixed page size, no ability to multi-page which was kind of annoying but I started thinking of it as a feature as well.

have you come across scribus?

https://impagina.org/features

you don't have to use all the desktop publishing features, but it does have multi page, flows the text from page to page, some basic vector drawing etc.

Inkscape does have multi page, now, if you still want that.

> the ability to organize things freely in space

This is the key. It's not enough for digital tools to just put things in folders or tag them. It's the links themselves that need elevation. People need to add metadata to links, they need to apply rules specifying what links to crawl and how to arrange them in space, they need to specify how content should be displayed in islands of connected content. Then they need to be able to arrange islands on a 2d, 2.5d, or 3d canvas.

We have information input and retrieval solved. For some reason it's taking a real long time for people to get to spread out.

This is the core principle of LimanDoc.com I am building, a canvas that holds files and diagrams, but most importantly an inner board (a folder) that you can see through.

Wow, so glad to see the author's idea and this as well.

After playing with this stuff it hit me why these systems are simultaneously so attractive and also not amazing.

Human brains are still way better at the very cool linking thing. We make those connections better than the bots.

Which is why I dream of, and tried to start work on one that was basically "cards."

I'd love to see one with "the card" as the main atom/unit -- but that had a zillion different visual "arrangement" methods. Give me alphabetical, give me semantic, give me random etc etc.

My experience echoes yours. There’s something about writing longhand that is very difficult to reproduce digitally, and I have tried them all, including Obsidian and LogSeq.

The only digital exception I’ve found is OneNote. It’s 20 years old but nothing else comes as close as to reproducing the experience of pen and paper. In fact, I found it superior and I regretfully gave up my fountain pens and paper long ago. Recent research has shown that tablets with a digital are equivalent to pen and paper for comprehension, both of which beat typing:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8222525/

The advantages of OneNote over paper are practical: digital notebooks are more portable, can be automatically synced to other devices, converted to text if desired, searched, and has the superior feature of being able to easily insert images and screenshots.

My only regret with OneNote is that it is closed source and syncing requires a MS account. Using it on iOS also requires an account. It’s high time someone came up with an open source alternative that can be set up locally.

I disagree.The human mind is adequate for coming up with new ideas, ;) and it has been reported by many good authorities that staring at a blank page, :) no matter the quality and fineness of one pen can be madeningly unproductive. For my day to day work, a pen and paper is indispensible for the making lists of, and crossing out things needing doing. The aquisition of perspective is vastly more important than meer knowledge.Removing blinders and having the scales taken from our eyes, a new light, etc. VS getting a bigger market share by whatever method, works, best.

I agree with your disagreement. The retrieval of pen and paper are awful.

The problem is that we are overly complicating PKMs and and knowledge systems and focusing on storage instead of thinking or active retrieval which mostly comes from the fact that people tend not to know what is important and how to engage with it.

A simple journal timeline with bullet points and insights / interesting things that are relevant to me made a difference.

I have no idea how I would have stored these in a paper format dragging with me whilst travelling.

would something like an ipad + apple pencil not bridge this concept? The usage of pen & paper with the addition of the digital world; OCR, tagging etc.

You would think so, but the micro-interruptions of switching modes, selecting documents, selecting tools, etc make a huge difference in terms of flow.

It sounds small, but "taking a second to select a new brushstroke from a list of options" is exactly what OP is talking about in terms of raw creation vs synthesis.

I guess so, but those are also all optional right? IF you would only write freehand with a ballpoint in real life then you wont use any of those menu options on-device either? IIRC the native notes app on iPad will dynamically create bullet lists, rule lines etc from your freehand typing without needing to select things.

Every piece of the digital experience is (in this case) simulating the real world imperfectly. Paper is, screens are pixels and direct light and refresh rates. A pen is, a menu option is not.

There are definitely advantages to digital, but there's no denying that, by adding a middleman between yourself and the world, you lose raw experience.

There are a couple apps that try to address that problem. My favorite is Muse. You just open it up, pan to a blank area and start writing. Tools are deliberately limited so there’s no point futzing with colors and thicknesses. There’s no document selection, just optional nested boards, so your spatial orientation is always engaged, like with paper.

I sometimes dream of video stickers, where you could put some short video on it, and then just put it on the paper notebook page

Hypothetically with a sticker printer like a Cricut or something you could do little QR stickers…

Why do you prefer paper to a word processor or latex?

The Livescribe pen goes well with this philosophy.

http://dynamicland.org or https://folk.computer too.

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