With 10 months of support remaining, Windows 10 still dominates | Hacker News Reader

With 10 months of support remaining, Windows 10 still dominates

theregister.com

39 pointsLorenDB50 comments

Anyone else here holding out?

I am a hold out on upgrading, but mostly because of what I gather Microsoft's vision of the future of computing.

They took a page out of Apple's notebook, the one where the user doesn't know what they want, the company does.

Apparently we want:

  - A requirement of a non-local Microsoft account to install or use it, with no opt-out
  - An AI subsystem that tracks everything we do on the machine
  - Requirement to upgrade hardware to install the OS
  - Ads in our face
  - A worse start menu
  - A worse taskbar
  - Dark patterns to get us to accept it all

I just want to buy an operating system for my hardware, not have Microsoft claim said hardware as their property. I'm the landlord, not the OS developer.

I'll be using Windows 10 until I can't any longer for things that require Windows. For everything else, Linux.

I worked around several of those pain points:

  - A requirement of a non-local Microsoft account to install or use it, with no opt-out

With some effort, you can use local account: https://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-windows-11-without-mi...

  - Ads in our face
  - A worse start menu
  - A worse taskbar

Fix Explorer with Explorer Patcher: https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher . It was unusable otherwise for me.

> With some effort, you can use local account

For now. Microsoft has been trying to close that for a while, and I suspect the only thing keeping some of it alive is the stark security requirements some of their corporate/business customers mandate.

The existence of these workarounds allow Microsoft to achieve their goals. It doesn't behoove them to tighten the screws completely, because they still get to capture the vast majority who do what they're told to. And after enough years of acceptance of surveillance creep, the Overton window will have shifted enough that subverting these controls will be perceived by normies as suspicious behavior.

ledragonx windebloat tools my friend, your life will become much better. it strips out sooooooooooo much adware. It's like every service in windows from MS, dozens of them, all has telemetry. WHen it runs it's like getting a colonic and you think to yourself "wow, all that was in there?!?"

Let's not forget regressions in gaming performance. This is my number one issue, and the devices I do have Windows 11 on arent changing my mind, and I suspect this holds true for many others out there.

Why upgrade if I just get downgraded?

I'm not holding out, I'm taking the cue that it's finally time to exit Microsoft altogether. Their October deadline is when everything MS finally gets wiped from my hard drives.

It does look like I'll have to make some sacrifice going fully Linux. VR isn't great. Simracing hardware is inconsistently supported. Daisy firmware flashing doesn't work.

But I'm done being a pushover. If a product needs me to stay in the abusive relationship that is Windows in 2025, I will loudly choose other products.

I had some experience with the IoT LTSC variant of W11 recently and found that while it's not perfect, it solves a lot of the telemetry and UX complaints people have with W11.

Any complaints so far? I'm still on windows 10 LTSC.

I’m not the end user in this scenario, but the person using it has had no issues for the several months it’s been on their machine. This was a vanilla installation with no UX extras like start menu replacement

I keep a Windows 10 installation around just in case, but over the past few years I've only booted it to install updates. I also have some ebook and hardware config applications that I haven't been able to get working in WINE, which I very very occasionally want to run.

I haven't decided what to do. I suspect I'll end up deleting the Windows partition and just reclaiming that disk space.

Yup, your list of '-' items is terrific. Well put. I've seen the same.

Had an HP laptop with a version of Windows 10 I liked okay, but after several years the mechanical hard disk failed.

Got another HP laptop, with Bit Locker and Windows 11. In one word for multiple reasons, unacceptable. Finally had (failed to keep good notes on where from) a thumb drive with apparently a recent version of Windows 10, installed it, and then discovered your list with '-' -- yup, I'm not the only one.

Looks like now Microsoft and 10 want to force users to accept updates: Sounds like should take backups of 10 and reinstall after the updates. The Windows 10 I had on the first HP didn't have the junk in your '-' list. Gee, should try to get and install the version of Windows 10 I had, uh, get a list of all the Windows 10 versions and pick one of the older 5-6 years ago?

In general, I'd like the tools I use to stop doing things I didn't ask for.

My distant #2 (I even game exclusively on Linux) OS is Windows 10. 11 seems like more of the things that suck about Windows and nothing worthwhile.

Honestly, I really like win11. But I'm using the pro version. The only thing I really really hate is the account requirement.

Other than that, I like the new clipboard, the much (much!), improved settings menus (I know a lot of people disagree but I couldn't stand the windows 10 settings mess), etc. The UI is also more pleasant and not as flat as windows 10 is.

I'm not sure if it's specific to windows 11, but compared to the version of Windows 10 I used before, it has a lot of multi-screen QOL improvements like making different screens of different sizes and resolutions seamlessly work together.

Hits the nail on the head. I was surprised they even removed the ability to customize the taskbar location - but it still employs the same registry entries, so you can relocate it by messing with obscure manual modifications.

Yet half the menus will just ignore it. The start menu will pop up at the correct location, but then glitch to bottom left as soon as you start typing/searching

What's beyond is that even if we were to accept all the dumbing down and reduction of the UI as a sacrifice to make the OS more touch/hybrid friendly - it'd be really bad design, since keeping the taskbar on top makes it quite ergonomic to access on touch ultrabooks.

I'm picking this specific example, since it really questions the "trust us it's how it's best" excuse, and makes it much rather feel like 11 was simply rushed into production

The fact that all my existing computers are incompatible with the new version of Windows and that I need to buy all new machines is the dumbest decision ever. I resent Microsoft’s decision and do not plan on ever upgrading to 11 because of it.

Didn't MS once say something to the effect that Windows 10 would be the 'last' major Windows version and that they'd switch to a more continuous update model? In reality, it was probably one of the versions with the shortest time until the update was announced. Windows 11 reminds me of the old rule that every other Windows version is best skipped.

>Didn't MS once say something to the effect that Windows 10 would be the 'last' major Windows version and that they'd switch to a more continuous update model?

No, a Microsoft employee said something to that effect in a speech in 2015, but it wasn't an official statement.

I have, unfortunately, upgraded to Windows 11. As far as I can tell, it's Windows 10 but worse in a number of ways. It sucks. My first several hours with Windows 11, I was constantly sending a friend things that had changed for the worse.

I don't think there are any user-facing improvements that Windows 11 brings, which really isn't a surprise.

I do like the tabbed explorer... that is nice.

That's fair, the tabs are nice. If only they hadn't killed the file menu, the address bar, and sane navigation in the process.

You mean 10 months of free support remaining.

Pretty sure there is going to be an option to pay for additional support duration even for home users.

And there is an edition of Windows 10 that is supported until 2032, so it's not like they aren't still doing security patches anyway.

I would be willing to bet MS may even decide to extend the free support duration. But if they hold out on making that decision until the last minute, they can still persuade more users to switch to W11. So if they are going to extend the free support, I wouldn't expect to hear about that until much closer to October.

It's a sad state of bad features, unwanted behavior, reduced functionality, and regular regressions in behavior/performance. Honestly, it's an embarrassing situation for them that shows how much they've lost whatever way they had left.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-windows-11-24h2-bug-list-1...

And let's not forget the biggest layoffs in 2022 were on the QA teams. It shows.

Only use WIN on dedicated games-only computer. Please save us, Steam OS!!

Once Steam OS becomes mainstream, I will never boot Windows anywhere ever again.

Windows does NOT care. What kind of OS comes with bloatware out of the box???

So many bugs.

So many bs out of the box behaviours when installing that require secret recipes from the internet to work around.

No thanks.

What is going to happen with this? It’s pretty unimaginable that Windows would drop support for 30% of PCs or whatever, exposing them all to viruses.

It seems like everyone will be forced to switch to Linux or something. Obviously I’m not going to upgrade my perfectly good CPU to make windows happy.

How would everyone be forced to switch to another OS? These machines won’t suddenly refuse to boot.

There will be paid security updates from Microsoft [0], 0patch [1] (if you trust them), the LTSC version (which however takes you back to 21H2), and lastly you can still take your chances with just Windows Defender signature updates. I know a couple of people who still run Windows 7, including a security researcher (and not for research purposes), which still receives Microsoft Defender signature updates.

[0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended...

[1] https://blog.0patch.com/2024/06/long-live-windows-10-with-0p...

I don't think security updates are actually that important

Cloud PC might leap to the fore here, sold as a way to get "the latest Windows goodness" without needing anything more than a minimal client and decent Internet. It would solve all the patching issues, give Microsoft excellent data on how people use "their" computers, and generate a little cash on the side. Then windows on the desktop could shrivel over time to just be a stub and a client.

64-bit Windows XP with the 2000 look and feel was the peak

Even Windows 7 with that classic look enabled was still fine.

wow. never knew. will try. thank you! :-)

I just built a new PC literally yesterday and decided to try Win11. It has been shocking how terrible of an experience it is.

The very first thing I saw was TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and some other bloatware apps installed in the start menu (this is a Pro install, not Home edition)

The start menu itself is basically just a copy of a mobile phone's home screen.

I can no longer place my taskbar to the top as I've done for the last 20 years.

A disgusting amount of telemetry is enabled by default, including what is basically a keylogger, and I don't trust them for a second that they actually stop sending everything through even if you disable it in the group policy editor.

The right-click context menu requires 2 clicks to get the usual list of actions.

In order to change to the dark theme, you have to login with a microsoft account. Many other settings are also disabled until you login.

Edge gives you a truly pathetic nag if you type in Firefox on Bing. It constantly nags at you afterwards. I actually laughed out loud at how sad and pathetic it was, literally begging you to keep using Edge.

Explorer hangs constantly and is infuriatingly slow, even on my extremely fast and for now empty SSD. Search is useless despite the indexing feature.

I could go on. There're some small nice improvements like better dark mode support (though still not perfect and there's still lots of legacy windows). HDR support is better. The new settings app is better if only cause things aren't split between the control panel and it anymore.

However there being ads and suggested items popping up in my start menu disgusts me. The fact that you have to debloat the OS yourself, find 3rd party tools to fix all the garbage decisions M$ made, all for what basically amounts to microscopic sidegrades compared to Win10 just makes it a nogo.

I don't care about security "updates", I'll be using Win10 for a long, long time.

Of course, most Windows 10 PCs don't have the newer hardware to upgrade to Windows 11. They are stuck at 10 and when support runs out it will run out.

Doesn't seem to be the case anymore: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42369757

That article was incorrect when written and has since been retracted. The link now takes you to a rewrite that reaffirms Microsoft's commitment to TPM v2 and that reports Microsoft's current position that they reserve the right to break your computer if you install Windows 11 on unsupported hardware.

They walked back the official TPM requirement

I've been running Gnu/Linux for my desktop for over a decade. If I can't make a windows app work in my preferred OS, I just don't use it. There is a decent free alternative almost everything and I can make do with that.

I know Rufus allows you to bypass certain requirements like Secure Boot and TPM 2.0, does anyone know if it can cause issues?

So far it doesn’t. But Windows 11 24H2 now requires support for the POPCNT instruction and otherwise won’t boot, which excludes some older CPUs. Conceivably future Windows 11 updates will add further hard requirements like that.

IoT LTSC is supported until 2032

I don’t think you can run the IoT version for general purpose use.

Also if you’re using windows on an IoT device…

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise...

Enterprise IoT is "binary equivalent" to Enterprise.

> Note: Microsoft does not publish feature updates through Windows Update for devices running Windows IoT Enterprise LTSC.

This sounds like a strict upgrade to consumer-grade windows...

How does an enterprising user get a legal hold on one of those licenses?

It is possible to change your Windows edition using open-source tools:

https://massgrave.dev/change_windows_edition

Should link this article instead https://massgrave.dev/windows10_eol

The other child comments are responding with how to obtain this in a way that is of questionable legality, which I think is not what you are asking. The officially blessed Microsoft way is essentially not available to non-enterprise customers, and it's only available to some subset of enterprise customers from my understanding. And that the cost to acquire the license is quite expensive.

Also if you’re using windows on an IoT device…

Microsoft is using IoT in a loose sense. The "thing" could be an industrial PC at the train station that plays a recorded message saying the 8:15 will run late today.

I've got one machine and a VM on Windows 11, but I use Windows 10 on my primary gaming laptop and work laptop. People always ask me why I'm still on Windows 10. Obviously there's nothing I can do about the enterprise version installed on my work laptop, so let's just focus on the gaming one. It's got an i7-11800H, RTX 3080, 64GB of RAM, and a Samsung 990 PRO nvme drive. When I bought it, it came installed with Windows 11. Even with the proclaimed performance enhancements of Windows 11, this laptop seemed quite slow for the specs it was sporting. I decided to revert back to Windows 10 and all of a sudden we're flying. I've tried on one other occasion to upgrade with Windows 11, but the performance just does not match up. I don't understand the problem, but it's the primary reason for keeping me on the platform. The other reasons for staying on Windows 10 are: no ads, less telemetry (although I disable this with Windows de-bloater and O&O shut-up anyway), and more intuitive interface. I hate having to customize the shit out of Windows 11 to get the experience that was out of the box on Windows 10; things like start menu placement, context menu behavior, taskbar settings, notifications, etc.

I wish I could switch over to Linux, I truly do, but it's still not ready. I recently tried out Linux Mint and immediately ran into an issue with my mouse wheel + back/forward buttons not working. Off to search for the solution and the level of effort to get it working right seemed in line with operations tasks I have to deal with at my FAANG job. I don't have the time, energy, nor patience for this bullshit just to get my mouse working properly. Imagine the hoops I'll have to jump through for all my games to work right. Also when I raise grievances like this with the Linux crowd, I either get the "try this distro" (which has its own problems) or some snarky answer. So yeah, we're not there yet.

I think that the problem might be that people don't trust that Windows 11 isn't enshittified somehow relative to 10 or that the upgrade won't screw them over somehow. Seems like corporate bad behavior coming back to bite us.

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