PlasticList's Advice for Food Companies
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Plasticlist Report – Data on plastic chemicals in Bay Area foods - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42525633 - Dec 2024 (188 comments)
think it would be a helpful tool for people interested in this topic!
For example, you list Fairlife Core Power Chocolate Protein Shake as 100/100 but it is on the plasticlist report as containing levels of DEHP and DEHT, likely coming from the packaging. Not sure what an accurate rating would be, but not 100 for sure.
Maybe it works for non-food items better, but for food it might be counterproductive.
This group is calling for foods companies to test all of their inputs. Eventually it is going to point to recycling's plastic processing & grinding stage.
It's also basically just a very viscous fluid and I suspect would flow into grooves when a knife blade hits it, without releasing particles like harder more solid plastics would.
Personally, I try to avoid having most plastics contact my food and water, but make an exception for HDPE.
In general, each plastic polymer is very different from another chemically, and it makes sense to consider their safety independently, and not group all plastics together.
I'm not 100% sure HDPE is safe- and if not it might depend on how it is used, but I am less concerned about it than a lot of other plastics.
https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2023/10/making-meals-... https://phys.org/news/2024-12-microplastics-multiple-human-t...
The first study you linked is interesting- it does seem to confirm what I suspected, that HDPE does flow on knife impact causing it to release less plastic debris than other plastics, but still not zero.
The second one seems to be a fairly low quality review article looking at what does sound like a concerning issue, but doesn't really consider different types of plastic independently. It might be useful in the sense of citing a lot of papers in this area that could be looked at directly.
You can get really good HDPE, stainless steel, and glass water bottles with a silicon impact cover.
This is all just completely made up -- starting with the assertion that "plastic polymers" (whatever those are; you're not being specific enough to have a debatable claim) are "toxic" in the first place.
If you'd like a more specific example of what I am talking about, take for example Bisphenol A (BPA), one of the monomers used in making polycarbonate - which most people have heard of, and has now been eliminated from consumer products like water bottles (edited per correction from reply below). It is chemically similar enough to steroid hormones, that it can bind to steroid hormone receptors (in particular estrogen receptors), making it a potential endocrine disruptor. HDPE does not contain complex functional groups that are likely to mimic natural hormones and bind to receptors or enzyme active sites in a living system.
In general, molecules that contain a lot of aromatic rings, or reactive functional groups are more likely to exhibit drug like effects or toxicity. Such properties are systematically enriched for in chemical libraries used for drug discovery, but if trying to avoid unintended biological effects, it makes sense to exhibit more caution with such molecules.
Why did they find large amounts of BPA in more than a few foods they tested if it has been eliminated from food manufacturing process?
If they make a fine wine or a quality beer and put it in plastic (or something coated with plastic) I can't take the company seriously.
Tomatoes are the worse I hear because of their acidity. In the store there is a whole wall of canned tomatoes and plastic bottles. Non of the more expensive brands use it. The Tupperware comes out of the microwave all red? It even looks unappetizing.
If you can choose why go with the experiment? I'd pick the silverware over the plastic utensils every time.
Sure, go ahead. Nobody could verify what you claimed, because it was so vague to be undefined. That's the point.
You said something vague ("plastic polymers"), then you asserted toxicity (which is also a meaningless word -- nearly everything is toxic at some dose). As for the rest of the comment...I actually do have some training in chemistry and I have no idea what you're talking about. Just for example:
>> polyethylene (HDPE)- which is just a fully saturated perfectly straight hydrocarbon, similar to saturated fat or wax
No. Saturated fat is nothing like polyethylene. A fat is a triglyceride. A polyethylene molecule is not. You can't just wave your hands and say "they both have carbon chains" and draw broad conclusions from that.
Similarly, A "wax" can have all of the stuff that I think you'd (probably?) characterize as a "reactive functional group" -- things like esters, alcohols, and ketones.
> take for example Bisphenol A (BPA), one of the monomers used in making polycarbonate
You're trying to overgeneralize from very specific examples. Setting aside the evidence (or lack thereof) regarding the specific harm of BPA, the difference between BPA and even other kinds of polycarbonates is so vast as to be a meaningless comparison.
In biochemistry, the stereochemistry of a single bond can make orders of magnitude difference in toxicity, even if all the other atoms are the same. You can't just go "oh, it has rings/oxygens/whatever, so it must be toxic", or even "it looks like a fatty acid, so it must be safe".
The main point of contention for me is rather than establishing all HDPE as 'safe', it might be worth mentioning that some HDPE may have other chemicals added to it which could be harmful. Most HDPE doesn't have plasticizers like phtalates/etc added, but it's not completely unheard of. Some HDPE has been analyzed to contain ethylbenzene, xylenes, etc. And some HDPE is partially fluorinated.
https://www.pfasinsights.com/2024/01/u-s-epa-seeks-to-elimin...
Everything I said was very simplified, but could be much more specific with a lot more details that would be inappropriate for a HN comment- however I am happy to clarify exactly what I meant if you have more specific questions about what I mean. Indeed, each individual chemical structure can and should be evaluated for it's actual effects, and very small changes in structure can make a big difference. The importance of stereochemistry, and using biosynthesis to control it precisely is something I am very focused on. I stand by the claim that it is realistic to generalize that straight chain alkanes are well understood and have a lower risk of drug like effects than other classes of compounds, and mentioning fats and waxes here is an appropriate comparison in this specific context of risk assessment from limited evidence. Natural waxes - and most living things- actually do have a small fraction of saturated "fatty hydrocarbon" molecules that are not triglycerides/alcohols/etc. [1]. Some will even be unbranched alkanes, but with much much shorter chain lengths than HDPE. We also have liver enzymes that can convert these to alcohols.
I am an academic PI in this field, and much of my labs research is focused on discovery and biosynthesis of novel small molecule drugs, new plastic polymers predicted to have low toxicity, and saturated hydrocarbon biofuels. However, it is inappropriate for me to lay out a full technical description of exactly what I am thinking rather than a high level generalization in a HN post- for an audience that has largely never even had an organic chemistry course.
When I (or anyone else) is talking about the potential toxicity of plastic polymers, there are a lot of (hopefully) mutually accepted assumptions: we are talking about the real world exposure levels from real world regular use of products made from these. If I say "plastic polymers" in this context I'm talking about all of the common ones that are used in modern times to make things that contact food and water as a group- as done in the context of the article we are talking about. Doing so doesn't in any way conflict with the fact that this is a very heterogenous group with very different potential risks in different contexts.
Is it possible there is something else you are upset about here other than the specifics of what I actually said? There seems to be an undercurrent in your replies about being very skeptical of the idea that any of the widely used plastic polymers are possibly harmful, which I suspect is our real area of disagreement- and we would need to discuss the actual evidence of that for specific molecules with a lot more specifics to actually get anywhere. In a lot of cases the evidence is very minimal, and vague generalizations about the drug-likeness of monomer structures of the kind I am making here is the best current evidence one is going to have. One should absolutely be aware of how small changes in structure can massively alter toxicity, while still making generalizations with the evidence we do have about the relative probabilities of different biological effects from different broad categories of chemical structure.
We must make our decisions with the evidence that exists now, even if we don't like how little we have. One can and should collect better evidence to make better decisions as quickly as it is possible (to get funded to do so). If you're offering the funding, many people including me are quite prepared to collect better evidence starting immediately.
[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030881461...
The USDA also recommends wooden cutting boards be used so long as they are properly washed and sanitized before and after use: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and...
The main issues with using wood are 1) that generally you don't want to put them in a dishwasher, 2) it's trickier to track cross-contamination as you might with color-coded boards, and 3) they're much more expensive than plastic.
https://www.euroceppi.com/en/blog-en/why-cant-wooden-cutting...
Makes sense to me, I never process meat at home on a wooden board. Only plastic and dishwasher after use.
But hey, I used to do that. No matter how much you take care of them, the hot water wash and drying leads to those chopping boards splitting after so many uses. Those plastic buggers last for years.
You can oil them occasionally if they are drying out too much and cracking.
But yes they probably won't last forever. Shrug. Get another one.
Now I don't cook meat, so maybe that is why my experience doesn't match yours.
I personally have a dedicated wood cutting board that is for meat only. I cook my meat to safe temperatures anyway so i’m not too worried about sanitizing it perfectly. I just do my best with hot water, soap, and a sponge.
I hope you don’t use any polyester if you’re so concerned about my plastic board. Just imagine all that plastic from washing polyester. Or maybe you have a car with seats made out of plastic bottles fished out of the ocean?
I dislike polyester in general, with the exception of exercise shorts and sneakers. I buy cotton or wool if possible. Polyester just feels cheap to me, and avoiding it also means i have less microplastics exposure. :)
There’s no hiding from microplastics. I do take some steps to avoid them where it’s easy, instead of purposely adding more to my body.
> Waxed cotton came in either black, or an inconsistent dark olive. Colour was controlled by the amount of copper left from the cupro-ammonia treatment.
It reminds me of this cling-wrap alternative i use in the kitchen: https://www.beeswrap.com/
Switched to this kind of stuff instead https://www.dm.de/profissimo-frischhaltehauben-aus-silikon-p... + normal cotton towels and paper for everything else.
This looks great for wrapping avocados, cucumbers, etc. Thanks for the tip!
Not that I use a plastic board anyway.
Edit: Also there are literally some forms of cheese that you cannot make in sanitized stainless steel. The combination of bacteria you need needs to be impregnated in the wood.
I've never heard anyone say this.
Separately I've heard that while bacteria can live in wood cutting boards, they tend to stay where they are rather than migrate out of the board and into the food -- but I can't back that up with any actual references.
One for anything which is not likely to harbor dangerous bacteria. (eg: vegetables, bread, etc.)
One of meat, which gets cut and then gets cooked, and so theoretically a bit of bacteria is no issue in any case.
I can see how this would be much tougher for a commercial kitchen, though.
Cooking meat does not kill the toxic byproducts of bacteria. Many bacteria produces enterotoxins, which survive cooking and cause what we know as "food poisoning".
You would not want your cutting board harboring and growing these bacteria under any circumstances, even if you're cooking the product you're cutting.
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/3053/cutting-boards.html?fi...
It also has trouble with repeated washing cycles as a material.
There's some evidence that biologically, wood fibers will dessicate and shred bacterias, and there's the historical anecdotal evidence of wood cutting boards having been used throughout history, but those anecdotes aren't enough for commercial kitchen operation where food needs to be able to be given to all comers, including infirm, allergic or immunocompromised.
on a serious note, I try to avoid putting ANY plastic in a dishwasher unless it’s silicone. what’s wrong with buying a cutting board that is used for meat only? do your best scrubbing it down with hot water and soap, and it’s not an issue. Especially if you cook your meat to a safe temperature anyway.
Even better, avoid a plastic cutting board to begin with:
How does your cutting board compare to tire dust, shed particles from textiles, and latex paint in terms of your exposure and the danger thereof?
I really do try to triage "things to worry about" by severity and likelihood. At my age I'm mostly worried about not getting hit by cars and my mental health.
I agree it’s low on the list in terms of risk (big picture). I guess shopping for plastic free alternatives isn’t stressful to me, i view it like a shopping game. Plus the plastic free stuff tends to hold up better anyway over the long term!
I do wonder how rinse aid affects this too. Might reduce the residue left behind.
I'm grateful to have moved from the Bay Area, parts of which are so criscrossed with freeways that it's impossible to not live near/under one (all of Oakland), to somewhere where, despite the density being overall much higher, I live far enough from a freeway or highway that I can't hear them at all at night.
If your dishwasher doesn't have a sanitize cycle (or you aren't using it) you may not be getting hot enough at home anyway to be up to the standard a commercial kitchen would need.
Of course you may not have a dishwasher at all.
Then again, I also exclusively use serrated knives and think people that use ultra-sharp knives in the kitchen to make food cut like butter, crazy.
Edit: I remembered that beyond being simply slower, some important operations are extremely impractical without a cutting board, like mincing. Flat out impossible to do with a serrated knife as well.
What is your aversion if you’ve never cut yourself?
Besides that, serrated knifes make it practically impossible to cut yourself. You'll feel the cut way before you've sliced through any of your own meat, and that's precisely because you're "sawing" the food, or your flesh in that case.
I honestly can not think of anything (other than sticky cheese) that would be impossible to cut with the serrated knives I use. I cut up herbs, vegetables, meats, fruits everything. Come to think of it, they even cut crunchy bread with ease too, which usually requires a "bread" knife in a usual kitchen.
I don’t know how you could possibly mince herbs or dice vegetables into small cubes with something like that knife though. You need the flat slicing motion. Interrupted cutting like a bread knife does will lead to very messy cuts.
An easy go-to meal I guess is like stir-fry with a diced-onion base, which includes a lot of cutting of the above. I've never struggled as long as the serrated knife itself is not super old. They do eventually get dull and the bumps aren't enough for comfortable cutting.
My go-to knife that's really good quality and cuts everything with ease is this one: https://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Classic-Serrated-Utility-H...
I was recently trying to find one without plastic to replace the $25 all black plastic one I've had for years. The only one I could find without any plastic was one of those all metal Bunn ones you see at diners. It was more than $400! And even that still required you to purchase a separate all metal basket as the one that comes with it was plastic. And that coffee maker doesn't really make "good tasting" coffee. Any premium "good tasting" drip coffee maker will have plastic, and probably black plastic at that.