The Truth About H-1B Visas It's wage theft, pure and simple
neuburger.substack.com
neuburger.substack.com
H1Bs are figuratively a policy disconcertingly similar to slave labor.
Much of this election cycle has been about the schism between the ground truth people observe, and what we're being told by the elites; the economy is good, but many people are struggling, stuff like that. H1Bs are that for me. Everyone says we need them, that our industry would be screwed without them; but what I see is a program which exists only to prop up unsustainable companies on the backs of cheap indentured labor; it does not serve the interests of the American people. The vast majority go to companies like Accenture; trash consulting companies.
Immigration is America's superpower. Temporary migrant workers are not immigration. The goal of every foreign worker entering America should be citizenship, every migrant worker program should pose citizenship as the outcome, and if it would be politically/economically unsustainable to do that the program should not exist.
I think America's natural resources are its superpower personally. Immigration has historically been important in setting up systems for extracting these resources however I think whether its good at a given time needs to be justified every time.
If the SS taxes from my pay had each month been been put in an account that invested in 1-year T-bills at whatever the current rate was at the start of that month, and when T-bills matured they were rolled over into new T-bills, the amount in that account now would be enough to cover what my monthly benefit would be if I retired now for the rest of the expected lifespan of a US person of my age and sex.
I also did a similar calculation with the Medicare taxes from my pay. That account would have enough that if put toward monthly premiums on a decent insurance plan from the ACA marketplace in my state the amount I'd have to contribute monthly is close to the amount of the current Medicare premium.
When you combine that superpower with our insane natural resources; our insane oceanic coverage on the west and east borders; and our cultural and governmental bias toward personal freedom; there's simply no alternate reality or predictable-term future where America isn't a global leader.
Performative interest in diversity is condescending and othering. Well, performative interest period can be condescending and othering, regardless of the topic.
Because Arlington VA also has these software engineering jobs:
https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?base_query=software+engine...
Lots of white-collar professional jobs in HQ2 Arlinton VA:
https://www.amazon.jobs/content/en/locations/hq2
Also, a H1B status that's exempt from the annual cap is still required to have minimum salary of $60k a year (~$30/hour): https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/62q-h1b-exempt-...
The prevailing wage for warehouse labor is ~$18/hour: https://www.google.com/search?q=amazon+warehouse+worker+wage...
[1] >@drsuffy: Anyways Amazon just had 9,200 Warehouse jobs be approved for H1B for 2024. Yes. Because "retail trade"(warehouse labor) is the best of the best and definitely can't be filled by your average American : https://x.com/drsuffy/status/1872679207991669109
Immigration is America's greatest asset, followed closely by the vast oceans that shield our capital from any threats. H1B should be replaced by an auction system that lets in the top paid employees and converts to a green card after one year with the company.
This isn't true. Best I can guess you are referencing the company formerly-known-as-twitter. The 90% number refers to software engineers, not employees and only applies to one of several companies that Musk runs.
EDIT: in general, my point is that he practically triggered mass layoffs at large companies by being so vocal about doing it at twitter. A ton of investors were celebrating it after and pushing companies to do the same.
The market for software engineers crashed after https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE
Also see the layoff charts tab on this site https://layoffs.fyi/
That's an interesting claim, and one I'd be curious to see a more detailed argument for. I'm sure it had an impact, but arguing it had a larger impact than the prevailing market conditions seems hard. The massive overhiring in the year or two before seems like the obvious culprits for the majority of the mass layoffs.
I see a lot of hyperbolic and flat out false things said about Musk. I push back on them because I think that people's habitual innaccuracy when he is involved tends to make the real criticism of him harder.
His acquisition was in October 2022. Job postings started dropping off in May 2022. It was already leveling off as early as February 2022. You'd have to squint really hard to believe this was caused by musk, or that he played a major factor.
What It's Like to Work for Elon Musk - Genius, Chaos, and Burnout (techiegamers.com) :
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42574496
And
US culture breeds 'laziness' and 'mediocrity (telegraph.co.uk)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42574238
In particular :
> “It comes down to this: do you want America to WIN or do you want America to LOSE,” Mr Musk posted on X. “If you force the world’s best talent to play for the other side, America will LOSE. End of story.”
> The world’s richest person later clarified, however, that he only advocated bringing in the top “0.1 per cent of engineering talent”.
It's funny, looks like, at a meta level this also explains both my burning hatred for Twitter (even before Musk) and why Musk doesn't give a fuck about this context issue :
> “Are people really dumb enough to think they can convince Elon Musk, an immigrant to the United States who has generated untold wealth and national security advantage for our economy and nation out of thin air, that high skilled immigration is bad for Americans? Like, seriously?” Mr Nelson wrote.
> “My tolerance for subtards is limited,” Mr Musk replied.
I can certainly see how this philosophy can work wonders at his level. And even produce tremendous improvements for *everyone : an invention has a one-time cost, but a "forever" benefit.
Still, even Musk needs a society that is liberal enough to produce the kind of people that can reach for the stars, and an environment pristine enough that something like an industrial civilization is possible. He would do well to not jeopardize these...
He (and presumably Musk) think that a society of Terence Fletcher overlords and Andrew Neiman whipping boys is an ideal to strive for, not a cautionary tale.
This is what happens when you don't get any exposure to the liberal arts.
In the simple terms, as per the title, it is protectionism. Without making an argument for either position, it seems a bit hypocritical when tariff critics, "You know this means the consumer will pay more, right?", reverse their position and demand protectionism for labor.
Of course there is much more nuance. Many H1Bs are not the mega-geniuses proponents allege. I lose interest when the argument turns towards IQ distributions and ID politics.
"Wage theft" is a bit spicy as well. Are employees entitled to their job at a given wage as some kind of Nativist birth right?
Comedian Sam Hyde had some interesting takes. I'm not convinced of his position, but he did well to illustrate how the dialogue around this issue isn't getting us there.
We need to have an honest conversation about not only the economic aspect, but the cultural aspect as well. We know that key cultural traits like social trust persist for generations in immigrants: https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-tran.... What is the effect of importing H1B workers, who are mostly elites back home, into the U.S. where many of them or their children attain positions of power over Americans?
My extended family has been extremely successful as immigrants from Bangladesh to Canada, the U.S., and Australia. But temperamentally, even the second generation folks are still basically Desi. They lack the egalitarianism and conscientiousness of Anglo Americans, and retain much of the “everyone for themselves” from back home. Ross Douthat wrote a fascinating article about the ramifications of this change: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps...
I'm sorry, but egalitarianism is not a trait I would attribute to Anglo Americans. America is a very selfish nation, built on selfish ideals. You'll have communities that aren't, but they aren't Anglo Americans: it's mostly germano-americans, maybe Acadians, or Swedish/Norwegian late immigrants communities. And probably Sikhs recent immigrants, although I'm not sure about that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charita...
US ranks #1.
the-world-s-most-charitable-nations
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-most-charita...
#4
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charit...
#6, only 2% less than #1.
E.g. Desi culture is communal—people lean on each other for support. But it’s not egalitarian—social class, family reputation, and even birth order are important in social interactions. I have cousins that married above their league because our family reputation carries weight back in our town. Americans by contrast are not communal. The difference is especially stark within extended families, where the bonds of mutual support are very weak. But they are egalitarian. Nobody cares about your family reputation.
Egalitarianism is one of the things that makes America so attractive for immigration. Immigrants by definition have no spot in established familial hierarchies. In a society where that matters, immigrants can’t get to the top.
It is my opinion that any argument against a native birthright to work and collectively demand the peak wage you can get is a fools errand. It just seems a natural extension of labor unions to have the whole country itself block access to jobs for foreign workers, to the extent that it does not subsequently drive ourselves out of a job through non-competitiveness. USA (arguably!) does not have a competitiveness problem yet in tech. But it also fits with the value of competition to have foreign workers enable our own businesses to succeed, such that they enable it through irreplaceable innovation, rather than wage suppression. Stealing scientists makes sense. Importing cheap labor does not.
So, on paper, it fits with my values. In practice, that's another problem, and that's where we can change it.
"Entitled" and "Nativist birth right" is loaded language that I think you're using to discredit valid labor concerns. Most people besides techy libertarians with empathy trouble generally think that workers should be getting paid enough to get by on, although opinions on what that level is or how best to accomplish it vary considerably. Having to compete with the slave labor of authoritarian regimes isn't right. Having to compete with indentured servants on H1B visas isn't right. These things are good for corporations, but as Sam Hyde pointed out, they make America worse.
I think everyone will agree that workers, or anyone else for that matter should live comfortable lives. The question is how and who? Should those poor souls slaving away under an authoritarian regime be given a chance to escape to greener pastures?
The question of wages is well outlined, but more concerning is the purchasing power of those wages. This relates directly to productivity, specialization and the cost of goods.
As for the concept of nativist birth right entitlement, for myself, I must start somewhere with first principles. Perhaps you have an alternative method of reasoning that you might outline for us.
Many here take libertarianism to be some kind of Gordon Gecko caricature, or perhaps the Monopoly Man comes to mind. Yet if they propose that the state take matters (authoritarian regime?) into its own hands with central planning, they assume it to be a purely altruistic endeavor. Regulatory capture and a host of other malign incentives are lying in wait.
Please don't assume a lack of empathy. It is simply a different approach to solving the problem of how workers or anyone else can prosper in an economy.
That a pretty loaded statement on its own too.
I was an H1B, but I most certainly didn't feel indentured. Nor did other recruiters who wanted to talk to me.
I did actually end up moving back to Denmark, but that's another story.
I think my point is that even for Europeans that have competitive job offers elsewhere, H1B is still the easiest visa, if you want to work on the US.
I'll admit I think I mostly did it for the experience -- it was fun, I learned a lot -- but it's not like I couldn't have gotten the same job in Europe or Canada. I probably could, probably even with the same employer. I did even work remotely a few months from Denmark before my H1B kicked in.
I would be sad to see H1B go, I had a lot of fun. And if I wanted to stay I'm confident I would have found a green card sponsor with ease.
Until the US had better visa programs, it would be a shame to dismantle the H1B program.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Make a replacement, then talk about changing H1B.
Good luck finding a new employer willing to sponsor your H1B within just 60 days (the grace period allowed before self-deportation) in this job market.
Additionally, switching employers resets your green card approval process (if it has started), which can take years. This serves as a significant disincentive to change employers unless you've already filed your I-485. Considering that an H1B worker has only 6 years to progress through this process, there is even more pressure to avoid changing employers.
Does anyone with more understanding and good numbers weight in about that?
No matter what the real numbers are, the 85k ceiling is strictly enforced, meaning the program introduces up to 85k new people per year, excluding their dependents. Their dependents cannot work in the US though.
I have watched brilliant young devs have to jump through the OPT hoops in hopes of finally getting an H1B to live out their startup dream. I have also met H1Bs who have the mental acuity of a mildewy scone.
There needs to be a difficult, but fair and clear path to citizenship.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA
2. https://web.archive.org/web/20241230014341/https://www.nytim...
Those H-1Bs live, work, spend, and pay taxes in the US. They are cheaper and you can kick them out on a whim.
It makes sense to a certain extent. You need to secure the infrastructure for that particular job to remain in your country but you want cheaper labor.
From an employer perspective it shifts the balance of power. Those pesky citizens, they change jobs, have all these rights and demands… The visa is tied to the employer. The visa holder cannot just change an employer without the new employer applying for a new visa.
Don’t like your job? Suck it up. Boss is a bully? Suck it up. Underpaid for your skills? Suck it up. Otherwise leave the country within 60 days max.
A director gently reprimanded me for my naivety and said his standard practice is to always promise dinner in the office and dinner is always late like 9PM. He expected a 996 culture in the US.
As an Australian, I could easily earn at least twice what I earn here in the US, but no amount of money would entice me to put up with dealing with your healthcare system or to subject my kids to "active shooter drills" at school.
I lived in Europe for close to a decade, and I can assure you many Europeans share this sentiment.
Weirdly enough, I grew up an Americophile, watching Beverly Hills 90210 while reading about Jefferson and Washington as a teenager. To this day I have a picture of Abe Lincoln on my wall.
I had a friend here on a visa whose boss definitely committed wage theft, making anyone who was not a citizen or on a green card work extra hours for no overtime. He was not even a techie. This is apparently very common.
That is before you even get into the "body shops" which I find quite believable.
There was a bit of cultural exploitation as well - Japanese workers were expected to put in 12 hour days (it was a Japanese company) even though the bosses weren't all Japanese. It was surreal to hear about - a Korean boss saying, "You have to work 12 hours, because you're Japanese".
This is just the stuff I recall. There was more I am forgetting as well. A fair bit has to be illegal I'm sure, and was back then even.
2) Remove the family extension. 80k/year shouldn't end up being 500k/year.
Companies would have to [gasp] offer substantially more pay. Which would of course defeat the point ad far as corporations are concerned.
The average American salary is less than 70k per year. Don’t you think 200k is a bit high?