Could the Soviet Union have survived?
historytoday.com
historytoday.com
I think subsequent events have proven that Soviet Russia had the capacity to retain at least some of its empire by force, especially if they coupled that with a de facto return to a market economy, the course that worked so well in China. But to his credit Gorbachev decided not to send in troops, and the coup that resulted was too ineptly planned to stick. Gorbachev was a complicated man, certainly no saint, but the decision to let the Soviet empire go merits him a statue or two.
[1] The Solidarity movement in Poland in 1981 was suppressed by the Polish army without foreign involvement, but the military junta all but said that the alternative was a Soviet invasion. Whether or not this is true is actively debated in Polish historiography, but was universally believed at the time.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events#January_13 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_January [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Barricades
not to people like putin, who claim that the dissolution is the greatest mistake in russian empire's history.
"Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains"
https://aforisimo.ru/30185.html
Unwinding a communist system is incredibly difficult and always yields a collapse in living standards, although temporary. Less extreme forms of it are often called "shock therapy" for this reason, but Russia's transition was handled especially badly and was especially extreme as the dissolution of the USSR wasn't a planned event.
If you look at opinion polls, a significant fraction of the Russian population does wish for a return to the Soviet system. You will also find some nostalgia in the former DDR. This isn't because they thought it was a perfect or good system, but the memory of the collapse and return to market competition is painful, and of course some of them are naturally left leaning anyway and liked a world where there was no competitive pressures.
Back to Putin - I see him as harking back to pre-communist Russian empire days, rather than the Soviet Union per se.
So he is in the same camp as people in the UK who are nostalgic about the British empire.
I think it would be much harder to do in the Soviet Union - it was much more ideologically committed to communism than China, such a pivot would probably not happen without major political turbulence.
- The Soviet Empire never transformed into an assimilative empire and was always something of a post-war occupation state. If you look at other empires that managed to last longer, they almost always had an “absorbing” of the captive areas, adopting some of their cultural ideas, incorporating local elites into the state apparatus, etc. (think of the Romans in Greece, for example.) This didn’t really happen in Soviet member and client states and was more of a top-down promotion of particular individuals and parties.
- The existence of Poland. Soviet history really goes back to Russian Empire history, which includes the partitions of Poland and the numerous uprisings for independence during the 19th century. I don’t think it was ever realistic to think Poles would be happy in a Russian empire, and the continual existence of such a large, unhappy client state in the Soviet sphere seems like it was an inevitable weak spot. The Solidarity movement was key in bringing down the USSR, so that is essentially what happened.
As for Poland, the Solidarity movement was quite effectively suppressed in 1981 and ceased to be an effective political force until the Polish government badly miscalculated and allowed it to reconstitute itself eight years later. The biggest mistake the Soviets made in Poland was in giving a large degree of autonomy to the Catholic Church.
As for Solidarity, I suggest reading about its influence on the Soviet bloc as a whole. Again, even if it didn’t work, it was just another example of a resistance movement in Poland. Another one would have likely occurred a decade or two later.
This is part of several massive ethnic cleansing campaigns under Stalin so successful that we forget about them today. But you are right that there was substantial continuity between imperial Russian and Soviet policy around russification of the various provinces.
With regard to Solidarity, there were plenty of resistance movements in Eastern Europe over the years; the real shocker around its 1988 incarnation was that it was allowed to peacefully assume power, and the Soviet Union didn't impose a red line enforced by tanks. That was new! It wasn't the return of Solidarity so much as Gorbachev openly saying "we're not going to intervene" that got the process of collapse rolling.
Again I don’t think as a whole the Soviets really did a great job assimilating cultures outside of historically Russified areas. Maybe they just didn’t have enough time to do so, but more in a broad geopolitical sense, I’m not sure it ever would have worked.
I think you have to be careful excluding "historically Russified areas" in your evaluation, because then that kind of begs the question. Those areas didn't just russify themselves! I agree that the process happens on longer time scales than the Soviet Union lasted for, but I think they continued a quite successful tradition from Tsarist times, with the added help of extremely aggressive and mostly forgotten ethnic cleansing campaigns under Stalin, like the removal of the Volga Germans.
A good metric of assimilation might be the alphabet. Seems to me that if the imperial core is using one alphabet (Cyrillic) but outlying areas with a hostile history are using another (Latin), then the assimilation process wasn’t working and perhaps never would work. And more broadly this alphabet difference is really a religious-cultural difference going back a millennium.
In short, IMO the Latin-using Catholic Poles had a long history of being different from the Cyrillic-using Orthodox Eastern Slavs, and were large enough as a group to not get relocated or assimilated, and therefore basically never would have been properly assimilated into the Russian-dominated Soviet identity.
That's a very odd adjective choice to apply to the Georgian one.
The other 3 are usually cited as Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Chernenko, but the former two were of Russian ancestry.
That leaves us with Stalin and Chernenko in our multicultural icon set. The latter having of course served but a year, mostly as a walking corpse.
The war with Ukraine has made questions of Russian and Ukrainian ethnicity much more salient then they used to be, but it's important not to project that onto the past. The situation with Khrushchev and Brezhnev is a lot like W's—they grew up and made their political careers in Ukraine; Khrushchev in particular had a strong southern accent.
Аnd if you absolutely insist on blood tests, then you'd have to count Gorbachev as half Ukrainian, which would be a further bit of proof about the effectiveness of assimilatory policy...
You can take the matter up with his granddaughter if you like:
I remember my grandmother saying that Khrushchev spoke Ukrainian all the time and that it was so embarrassing because it wasn’t the real thing! That said, Khrushchev was a Russian. It’s erroneous to say that he was Ukrainian—as Henry Kissinger just did, in a recent article. He did not transfer Crimea to Ukraine because he was Ukrainian. He was a Russian.
https://macleans.ca/politics/worldpolitics/nina-khrushcheva-...the counter-factual is that ukraine survived primarily due to western aid, without which they'd be defeated already and is more likely to have to adapt a gorilla war against russian occupation.
It seems probable that the spirited resistance the Ukrainians offered and the level of western intervention that has been observed were what threw the Russians off and they are more strategic factors. When it became clear that there was going to be a real conflict they immediately started mobilising a much bigger force than they started with.
There isn't really that much evidence of Russia's military power either way yet, the fog of war is too thick. There were catastrophic mistakes in their planning assumptions though.
Even if your theory is true, that they didn’t anticipate a “real conflict” and so didn’t bring the necessary forces, that’s still a catastrophic military failure that speaks poorly of their martial prowess. That stuff is part of military power too. A big army you can’t apply effectively doesn’t win any prizes.
I think this is because they boiled the frog slowly. They could not have started the draft right away.
Russia can claim that title (or at lest 3rd place) solely based on its nuclear weapons program.
And realistically, they're probably going to end their adventure with a big chunk of conquered Ukrainian territory permanently in their hands.
It's that conclusion I disagree with. Their relative ranking has nothing to do with their absolute capability. Russia being able to do what they've already done in the face of the opponents they have probably makes them 2nd or 3rd strongest military power in the world. I think few other countries could manage to do even that.
Sure, maybe in an alternate universe a totally politically unrestrained US military could conquer a Ukraine (receiving a similar level of foreign material assistance) from halfway around the world, but that just means the gap between 1st and 2nd/3rd is large.
Dang..
I didn't actually register one, but they quoted a price of $28.31 for the first year then $63.98/year afterwards.
Very interesting page, reminds me of old internet in it's writing style.
This article seems to be a narrative person's perspective. Once the Communists gave up control of the media, blam. Game over. The realist argument would probably be that reforming to a justice system with some integrity and adopting some policies to score consecutive years of 10% growth was all they needed to keep treading water. People do make reference to their actual real-world experiences when pushing for change in government.
> In fact, in 2006, Gorbachev pinpointed Chernobyl and the resulting media fallout as the real cause of the collapse of the Soviet Union.
I just struggle to accept that Gorbachev was being intellectually honest with this one. Is that really where he assigned the blame? The USSR had real economic and legal problems. The US had spent decades showing up just how bad Soviet policies were.
We kind of saw a similar process in the beginning of COVID, when China was actively suppressing information internally. But it may not have had the same results because of deeper state centralization and information control, as well as other countries having to bother with the same issue. Yet it still sparked a number of protests across China, due to directly or indirectly being affected by COVID-19.
Gorbachev probably did assign blame to Chernobyl. The USSR collapsed not due to internal revolution but because the people at the very top of the system became so demoralized they basically gave up on it. Key people just stopped fighting to defend the system, and the event that demoralized them was a bit different for each.
If you look at the career trajectory of Yeltsin, who never gets enough credit for the ending of the USSR, then it's a very clear case of someone at the top levels of the Soviet system suddenly realizing just how far ahead the US was in its provision of consumer surplus. The USSR was very effective at censoring information, including from people very high up the ladder. He visited a Randalls supermarket as part of a diplomatic mission to NASA and after realizing it wasn't staged or fake, it changed him forever. He became an outspoken critic of the system from the inside, which destabilized the regime. He was exiled from power and the pressure nearly killed him as part of this, but the other Soviets never did put a bullet in his head in the way they might have done in an earlier era.
Why not? Well, perhaps because the experience of dealing with Chernobyl had sapped their confidence so much. It's easy to overlook what an absolutely massive drain on the USSR's resources and time of senior party officials it was. And because everyone knew, and everyone knew everyone knew, it dealt a huge blow to their own ability to shape the view of the Soviet system. They suddenly had to divert vast resources and years of time to cleaning up a huge disaster of their own making. Undoubtably this demoralized Gorbachev significantly, and many others.
"all they needed" - as if that's easy to achieve consistently for decades.
In the end what killed it was the combination of stagnation and the ability to freely talk about it.
<Multi_key> <c> <c> <c> <p> : "\xe2\x98\xad" #symbol representing proletarian solidarity between agricultural and industrial workersGorbachev could have acted more skillfully.
"Deng Xiaoping thought Mikhail Gorbachev was an idiot."
A more competent new edition of Brezhnev could have prolonged the misery for a few decades.
A Legendary Exposé of the Brutality of the Soviet Union
Russia's economy was about the size of Brazil's at the time, and he said socialists would go into a holding action in Russia while the real socialist revolution happened to the west.
From the perspective of its inception, there was no failure in the Soviet Union, the failure was in the revolution in Germany.
But the mistakes started earlier. The arrest of Khrushchev in 1964 may already have been the point of no return. When you are faking the procedure, at least you retain some possibility of belief in democratic — or at least bureaucratic — principles. But when you just arrest the leader one day, the illusion is broken. Nobody can really believe you anymore.
The Five-Year Plan of 1965-70 — the Kosygin reform — was a success by almost all conventional economic measures [1]. Growth improved, innovation occurred, wages went up. But it was reversed. Some people in the party didn't believe that it was Marxist enough. Brezhnev, having come into office how he did, could never have had the courage to demand some kind of pragmatism that could have led the Soviet Union to the transformation that China underwent just a few years later. A nation can't be run like a mob, with everyone looking over their shoulder to see if they're going to be taken outside next. It paralyzes decision-making.
So when Brezhnev had a stroke and could barely even perform the superficial functions of leadership, nobody even wanted the job. Surely, if Khrushchev could be ousted from his position for his drunkenness, Brezhnev's incapacity should have been more than sufficient. Andropov, the leader of the KGB, was effectively calling the shots at that point, and when Leonid finally kicked the bucket in 1982, it was indeed Andropov who took over. But isn't it telling that for seven years, Andropov could have easily become the leader of the world's second-largest economy and simply didn't want to? What does that say about his confidence in the system he was running?
By the time Gorbachev was in the chair there just wasn't anything left to save. You can't have a vanguard-party government without a functioning vanguard party. The multi-party systems have all proven more resilient because when one of the parties starts to malfunction, it is removed from power and has the opportunity to reinvent itself or be replaced. No single-party state has lasted longer than China's current run, which is also starting to show a few cracks.
So far the two-party system in the United States has avoided the notionally unlikely situation that both parties become highly dysfunctional at the same time. But I don't like the news these days.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_Soviet_economic_reform
Perhaps worth noting, shortly after the fall around 1991, Yeltsin hijacked the Russian government and prevented Communists from retaking power. The pattern of events immediately after the fall (and their strong support from the West) raises an eyebrow about how exactly the "collapse" was precipitated.
Yeltsin used self-anointed emergency powers to abolish the Constitutional Court and dissolve parliament. When the people protested, he ordered a military attack on parliament, killing hundreds and jailing hundreds of protesters.
Yeltsin seized control of all broadcast media, banned opposition publications, and permanently outlawed 15 political parties. He ordered assassinations of his political opponents, parliamentary deputies, and journalists.
Yeltsin illegally dissolved the Russian constitution and replaced it with one that gave himself nearly absolute power over policy.
By 1996, he was losing badly in his bid for re-election. A communist candidate was far in the lead.
During re-election, his administration was bankrolled to the tune of $10B by the IMF and World Bank. Even so, he was still trailing the communist candidate by a long shot. So, he threatened civil war, making it clear he would not relinquish power. About half of the country thought there would be a civil war if the communists won. Ultimately, he rigged the vote count, as reported by ABC news in the US.
When he won re-election, Bill Clinton famously lauded the event, saying Russia has "turned its back on tyranny".
That’s probably how it goes when an oppressive empire falls. The core will suffer while the oppressed periphery gets a chance to flourish.
NATO bombed the shit out Yugoslavia shortly after, one part of the world that remained communist.
Virtually every remaining communist country was bombed into oblivion or subject to suffocating sanctions.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/11/02/end-of-communi...
I have no idea what you’re talking about with bombing or sanctions. What formerly occupied Eastern European country suffered this? For that matter, what formerly occupied Eastern European country isn’t wildly better off today than they were in 1989?
Laos is the most bombed place on Earth..
If you had any sense you would be on your hands and knees thanking providence for the luck you had being born in a time and place where you are able to pick and choose your own destiny instead of being shoehorned into a blue collar 8 to 6 factory job refining crude oil for the soviet state or being sent to a front line like those poor North Korean soldiers.
Milton Friedman has a good summary on why this happened:
https://www.npr.org/2006/11/16/6498016/friedman-on-free-mark...
USSR didn't compete with other countries outside of the oil and some other resource markets. They imported food (wheat) and now are one of the largest exporters (or they were before the full-scale war).
Arguably. Russia's most successful period since the mid 19th century was under Communism.
Note that this happened to most post-communist countries. 90s were uniformly bad, in the 00s things started to get better. The troubles likely don't have much to do with the liberal democracy as such, but with the transition of the economic system.
> Arguably. Russia's most successful period since the mid 19th century was under Communism.
The early decades were indeed quite impressive (transformed an agrarian country into an industrial powerhouse), but they did not manage to keep up the momentum, and it's questionable whether it was even possible with the planned economy.
It's sort of an article of faith in economics that a centrally planned economy can't work, but there are some rather large centrally planned systems now. Walmart and Amazon are each probably bigger than the USSR's entire consumer economy.
On an annual cycle, GOSPLAN could only provide general guidance - add up everybody's steel needs and tell the steel plants. That sort of worked for big stuff, but not for small parts. Factories tended to make too many of their own small parts. (Some US companies used to do that - IBM, Remington Rand, and Teletype all made their own screws.)
GOSPLAN never made it to bar codes, either. Today, everything in business is tracked as it moves. GOSPLAN never had that kind of info.
https://www.amazon.com/Cows-Discover-These-Farm-Childrens/dp...
No central planner is going to sign off on selling that. More importantly, Amazon doesn't try to set all prices. On its market, sellers are allowed to set their own prices and frequently use complex strategies to do so. The heart of central planning is an attempt to have one institution set all prices.
> It's sort of an article of faith in economics that a centrally planned economy can't work
It is now, sure, because of all the attempts to make it work that failed. Back when the USSR was new it was the other way around, the intellectual class were convinced that the Soviet system was better and the future. That included some economists!
The problem with centrally planned economics wasn't a lack of compute power, it was that the information needed to select the correct prices isn't something you can gather in one place. A lot of it exists only in people's minds and isn't even written down anywhere.
I think there might be a similarity in our market economy models and their blind spots related to limited resources and environmental considerations.
I'll post here a long excerpt from the best book on the topic.
The Struggle to Save the Soviet Economy:
Mikhail Gorvachev and the Collapse of the USSR
By Chris Miller
©2016
Page 181-183
The only force that proved strong enough to break the military-industry-agriculture coalition that dominated Soviet politics was the collapse of the Communist Party - which in turn caused the dissolution of the Soviet state. Until mid-1991, the three economic lobbies were bound together by interest, ideology, and inertia. Had Gorbachev been able to divide the coalition partners, playing one interest group against the others, he might have had more success in asserting control over the Communist Party and the Soviet state. But a strategy of divide and rule proved impossible. So long as they dominated the Communist Party, and as long as the party controlled the state, these groups’ shared interests overwhelmed any tactical alliance Gorachev could have conceivably offered. In the years after the collapse of 1991, with the military divided and discredited by the failed coup, and with industry and agriculture writhing under the pain of inflation and depression, Russian president Boris Yeltsin finally managed to split the groups, co-opting much industrial support while slashing farm subsidies and cutting military funding. Even though the Soviet Union by then no longer existed, however, Yeltsin still faced several years of resistance in his attempt to break the lobbies’ stranglehold on the federal budget and on the central bank. Only after Yeltsin shelled parliament in 1993, pushing the country to the brink of civil war, was the military-industry-agriculture coalition finally destroyed.
Was the Soviet Union simply unreformable? China’s experience proved that there is nothing inherent in Marxism-Leninism, in autocratic political systems, or in centrally planned economies, that makes a transition to a market economy impossible. In the USSR, to be sure, decades of wasteful investment left the country a burdensome economic inheritance. Yet the most damaging legacy of the command economy was not economic inefficiency, but political sclerosis. The Soviet system proved unreformable not because its economic problems were insurmountable, but because it entrusted vast political power to groups that had every reason to sabotage efforts to resolve the country’s economic dilemmas. In part, this situation was the result of the USSR’s relative wealth. When Deng took power in China, for example, the country’s farmers were on the brink of starvation. No matter what Deng did, the state of China’s countryside could hardly get worse, so China faced no built-in lobby that opposed change. By contrast, the USSR was stuck in a politically induced middle-income trap: many Soviet citizens, especially among the elite, lived decent lives that were threatened by change. Whereas Chinese farmers embraced decollectivization, Soviet farmers - who had benefited from several decades’ worth of farm subsidies - found that Gorbachev’s agriculture policies offered risks as well as rewards. A similar mechanism obstructed change in Soviet manufacturing and service enterprises.
Economic efficiency was also restrained by the relative leniency of the Communist Party during the postwar period. Under Stalin, the party had few interest groups because the Soviet dictator enforced his writ through purges and mass killings. Enterprise managers dared not miss production targets, on pain of death. The rapid rotation of cadres, facilitated by Stalin’s purges, reduced the influence of patronage networks. Brezhnev’s policy of “stability of the cadres” ended the use of the firing squad to encourage effective management. That made the Soviet system more humane, but it degraded incentives to work efficiently. Bureaucrats and managers now faced few reasons to act effectively: their firms could not go bankrupt, their salaries did not depend on performance, and they received promotions based on political connections. In China, the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s had shaken up the party and the bureaucracy, cutting back the strength of interest groups and paving the way for Deng Xiaoping’s market reforms. In the Soviet Union, by contrast, the 1960s and 1970s saw patronage network and interest groups solidify. Gorbachev inherited a system in which economic lobby groups played a larger role than ever before. Yet his powers as head of the Communist Party were weaker than any Soviet leader since the Bolsheviks took power in 1917.
The Shenzhen Special Economic Zone was established in 1980, less than nine years before the collapse of the Soviet Bloc.
After Putin, the oligarchs will scrabble about trying to get the most of what's left. If it gets really bad Russia will descend into civil war. Russia just recently had a mini-civil war with Prigozhin's rebellion.
If Russia ends up in civil war then China will invade Siberia under the guise of peace keeping to secure the resources it currently depends on from Russia.
China will cut deals with whichever oligarchs win out and part of the deal will be that China takes territory that they see as historically Chinese (such as Outer Manchuria).
https://www.rfa.org/english/opinions/2024/11/23/opinion-myan...
https://theconversation.com/chinese-security-companies-are-p...
https://www.voanews.com/a/china-backed-election-raises-fears...
If Russia decides to have a civil war, China will do the same in Russia.
China will also not invade Siberia, it's much easier to control it economically than turning your quasi-ally into a mortal enemy. (besides, nukes)
Or you have a military weakened and degraded by a pointless war of choice in Ukraine.
And you have many armies controlled by oligarchs and warlords looking after their own interests (like Prigozhin).
And you have many separatist movements, such has for example a movement for Siberian independence.
And you have a power vacuum after the head of a mafia-style state is deposed or dies.
After Putin all bets are off.
Exactly this is happening in Myanmar right now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42572620