VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data
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They don’t really think about competition. That’s an arena for power fights, empire building and incompetence on every level. Think about software and Cariad disaster. Cars were a byproduct. Germans associated them for generations with good life and bought without thinking. I would say, until Golf 5 the cars were brilliant, advertising fun and I would buy one. But now… just another expensive car brand.
There’s no telemetry left in it (3G was turned iff years ago).
It has all the safety features.
It regularly gets 60 something MPG (Imperial).
The Adaptive Cruise Control is all the self driving I need.
It’s great.
1) VW Group collects data on its customers.
2) Chinese-made vehicles have potential two-way telemetry and control (we don't know, it's closed-source), and we've just allowed tens of thousands of 1.5-tonne, potentially autonomous vehicles with goodness-knows-what sensor packages, plenty of demonstrated ability to kill, injure, catch fire or block critical infrastructure, and backdoors to a not-exactly-friendly foreign government, unfettered access to our streets.
I'm not saying Chinese EVs are a Trojan horse, but I can hardly think of a more effective way to do it, if they wanted to. Even assuming there's no "actor" component and they do nothing more than passive data-gathering, that's still.. huge.. right?
I don't care how much media tries to brainwash us that China is my enemy, facts are that there are way more tangible proofs of all us being consistently spied by US-led agencies, we have proof that from dams to electrical grids the US has one button methods to create chaos in most of the world, and yet, people consistently go into these far fetching anti Chinese speculation when the proof is that the spying, meddling boogeyman is in Washington.
This all feels like the usual US exceptionalism, where the only country that is exceptional and allowed to ignore rules is US, and others cannot.
I think it's reasonable to be sceptical about whether a state that brings us disposable vapes, TikTok and throwaway fast fashion has our best interests at heart.
He’s also talking about interfering in my country by giving huge sums of money to a wacky Spode-a-like conman that’s already taken billions out of our economy.
To my mind we should be skeptical of all foreign interference no matter where it comes from.
On the other hand Musk is part of the US government now and he is out to fuck us up.
So what do we do? We live in interesting times unfortunately. We’ll just have to see what happens.
Times change. Your allies of today are your foes in a decade. You don't know.
Still, there's billions and billions of spying devices and US-controlled electronics.
And I'm not making this up, we know for a fact NSA has put backdoors and hacks in both commercial routers and chips that are used everywhere in the world.
Yet you americans think it's fine if you do it, and it's also fine to speculate about other countries maybe doing it, and going into these crazy scenarios where Chinese EVs start ramming people.
Give me a break.
Such comments do nothing but remind me that US exceptionalism, the idea that the US can play by a different playbook is a huge danger and menace to world peace. It will keep pissing off allies and non-allies alike.
Musk going into bed with AfD puts him on an “adversary radar” for me, an immigrant in Germany. So hold your horses. US is cool until it isn’t. Political goals decide who US likes and this can change from one election to another.
2) Musk is literally a member of the next cabinet. And you have no clues and are probably delusional if you think Tesla vehicles aren't sharing their data with US agencies. It's obvious this happens.
3) China is not my military rival. Not sure why do you believe that, unless you live in the strange american exceptionalism where US has to be the biggest military dog in the world and if there's another country that could threaten this position it has to be limited.
It has never attacked my country or any of my allies, whereas I can remember many of my allies putting their foot, colonising and fighting China and its neighbours.
> 2) is ridiculous speculation and fearmongering. Why shouldn't I feel the same about Tesla's or any other car?
The idea expressed is the notion that one should be afraid of this "special threat" posed by Chinese-made vehicles... which is utter nonsense and fearmongering.
It seems like you and the OP are in agreement here.
EDIT: Fixed my bad Engrish and grammar in the second-to-last paragraph
You aren't? You should.
That is no little difference my friend!!!
the above is all I can come up with. For many none of that applies and so the data can only be used against us.
Correction:
They just don't have a known collection of blunders that allow access.
I bet if you look closely you’ll find more.
it must be 1984 because otherwise collecting centimeter precise location data of vehicles would definitely be malicious....
no. they already have too many policies. and this and that. adding one more is how we got there. (of course they have policies for making sure PII is kept safe.)
no. this is a cultural issue.
The fact is they let you pay $100k for a car and then they behave like Facebook and other consumer platforms where you pay with your data and can buy add-ons.
You can't combine the two. In this case you paid for your car, so it's yours and they are hands-off unless you ask them for something. Also, the car should not randomly stop working after three years and ask you for extra money.
Unfortunately, I don't have any faith in Tesla either. While in front of innovation surely they are behind moral. If I were to buy a car today, I'm not sure where to look.
Call it a failure of the free market and competition to provide effective alternatives. Call it a lack of oversight and regulation from governments that increasingly back businesses and economic figures over protecting their own people. It doesn't really matter. Until there is clear law that says selling products to people that will actively act against the interests of the purchaser must at least be prominently disclosed before purchase and probably in the more serious cases simply be banned by law the enshittification will continue because it makes the decision-makers a lot of money.
Obviously this should be seen as a disaster scenario (and highly likely outcome) for a capitalist society.
In particular I reject the notion that any organisation or system is too big to fail. If any commercial organisation or cartel is reaching a position or scale where its failure would represent a significant threat to the economic stability or indeed the democratic government of its host nation(s) then it is imperative that it should be quickly - and if necessary brutally - brought to a position where either it no longer poses such a threat or it is effectively destroyed and space is created for alternatives (possibly derived from the original) that will better serve the society they are part of.
But you are absolutely right on the loss of money aspect.
Yup, especially since that many cars artificially limited to "segment" the model into more models but are basically the exact same car. Some ECU modders, at least in the EU, also play it fully legit: they'll reprogram the ECU so that you've got more power and they'll help you with the paperwork for the DIV / insurance so that it's all legal.
I can see a future where auto manufacturers lobby to make “unlocking” features highly illegal due to the DMCA or some other.
Vehicle mods exist in the same sort of patchwork of "illegal to various degrees but nobody cares" gray areas that weed does.
At the end of the day enforcement is capped by political will.
We just had a few counties discontinue emissions checks and now only do safety checks up to 30 years past which they don't inspect at all.
It's all well and good to say "you can get away with it", but the businesses selling these products can't.
Don't underestimate the globalists' plan to control every single individual. They have an agenda "you'll own nothing and you'll be happy" (World Economic Forum plan).
Lately the EU wants to establish a registry of every single possession of every single EU citizen, down to watches, jewelry and paintings. There are literally vids with members of the european parliament asking the EU commission "guarantees" that this new registry won't be used to then confiscate these goods.
Tracking every single car is part of the plan.
And, no, I'm not seeing things.
People should vote to GTFO of the EU and should vote for much smaller goverments because the only things awaiting citizen at the end of the road is misery.
The EU is heading at full speed towards a dystopian totalitarian supra-state.
[1] https://myconvergence.bna.com/ContentItem/ArticlePublic/2620...
edited to fix link
They literally cause more harm to non-participating bystanders than cigarette smoking, with even less ability to opt out. (For those of you aged under 35 - non-smoking bars, restaurants and public spaces used to be a rarity in Europe).
And why? Because we somehow ended up in a situation where we use the same piece of equipment to drop our kids at school 1km away as we do for ten-hour, 1000km inter-city journeys with two weeks' worth of luggage. They're vastly OP for most of what people use them for, but it feels necessary because everyone else has one - we end up obligated to carry around big, heavy, impact-protected vehicles to protect us from all the other big, heavy impact-protected vehicles.
Being in the EU is literally the best thing that has ever happened to my country, and it continues being an incredible benefit to everyone here. The suggestion that we would be better off out of the EU is actually insane.
>>And, no, I'm not seeing things.
Fantastic, that means it should be trivial to provide sources for everything you've said.
There’s no need to talk about hypotheticals here, let’s look at a country that actually left the EU. The UK so far is worse off financially, has worse trade deals and literally no better “sovereignty” nor privacy since leaving the EU.
The real totalitarians are the national governments who claim they should operate without oversight and then blame everything on foreigners.
Edit:
"computing your yearly carbon emission to then decide if you can go on vacation or not and how far."
I am one hundred percent behind that idea. Make this law. Please. People need boundaries. Freedom is not the absence of boundaries.
No, of course not. Freedom is total control.
here [1] is a feasibility study released by the EU in 2024 re: "Feasibility study for a European asset registry in the context of the fight against money laundering and tax evasion".
[1] https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/0d8...
There are already national registries of land, residential/commercial buildings and most types of vehicle. Business ownership and shareholding is also a matter of public record in most territories.
And while there may not be a national requirement for registries of other classes of high-value financial asset, you can bet the banks know, and above a certain size, $100k or so, I can't see the down-side relative to what's already legally mandated. (By all means argue for "total privacy", but this is not what the law has decided on in most places - that ship sailed long ago.)
Looks like they're not all working that great: [1], [2]
I don't think all assistants are that bad in general, but I'm not sure that taking all capabilities and responsibilities (well that point is a bit of an open question with these systems) away from the driver is the right approach.
If you drive like a decent human being (and as required by law in most places), it can be quite safe already, adding complexity may actually cause issues. That some people don't drive that way shouldn't be the reason to force these systems on to everyone, better to do a good job in teaching driving (driving schools in my country are expensive, but otherwise mostly worthless except for the safety training which strangely enough is done after getting the license), etc.
[0]: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/80f... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38472167 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41968551
While an VW-owned, separately-managed Scout appear to be making a better EV, but could still take it in the direction of the corporate drones.
Surely hackers have figured out how to block radios in the new cars?
Explicit instruction isn't necessary or desired, it's trivial to write a unfunded 'compliance' requirement, practically guaranteeing a specific outcome.
There is a technical or moral concern that does not immediately make money, or worse, reduces income.
Every development sprint tasks are prioritized.
All that needs to happen is for the desired items to have, say, a priority of 3, while items in the sprint are always priorities 1 and 2.
That ensures those items are never done.
Examples? Google web applications tested and bugs fixed for Firefox.
If that person, and that person's management, think that security and privacy are a priority, then things get fixed.
As long as there's no incentive to improve security, there will be no security.
Examples of incentive: laws. Fix security or you can't sell your product, if you can't sell product you don't get a bonus or get fired. Don't gather location data if it's not critical for the functioning of the car or you can't sell your product, etc.
Surely it’s all about risk mitigation; some out-of-date NPM package with a minor flaw might cause the can to be kicked, but a major flaw with demonstrable consequences should get priority.
Arguably they'd be better off actually doing that as a true buyer and just engaging B2B for their easily solved CRUD variants than this weird go-between that combines the negatives of managing employees with the negatives of buying unknown solutions.
That's also why you don't install these little trackers to find your car when it gets stolen, because when it isn't stolen, they make money selling your location data, and that's the real product.
Weaponizing convenience, as usual.
And yes, I know that legally you don't have to service the car at the official dealer to maintain the warranty(at least in the EU/UK). The problem is that even if that's legally true, dealers will always try to weasel their way out of it. The service can be done at any VAT registered garage, but it has to be done using the exact compontents advised by the manufacturer and as advised by them - so if your garage gives you an invoice for "engine oil" you're screwed, it has to say "engine oil 5W20 SAE23531" or whatever is officially advised. Same for every other item or your service is invalid. And even if you do everything exactly as described, the dealer will just reject your warranty claim because you didn't service the car with them, then you have to take them to small claims court and you will almost certainly win, but it's time and effort. So as always, the law says one thing, and in practice things aren't that simple.
>>That's also why you don't install these little trackers to find your car when it gets stolen
Certain cars are impossible to insure without a tracker. And if you're a new and young driver good luck finding any policy that will insure you without a tracker. It's not always about convenience.
they make money from regular service as well and want you for that. However warranty work is too valuable to them to ignore
Of course it is in the manufactures interest to reject claims where they can. However it is also in their interest to pay out for claims since ease of handling issues is what builds loyalty.
The cost of first party service for 2-10 years (warranty period) is just part of the cost of ownership it’s as simple as that.
Just have the official dealership ask the customer for $300 to replace the prefabulated amulite on the ambifacient lunar waneshaft, and when the customer declines, you can refuse their future warranty claims on that basis.
The way this works is that if you need warranty work done, the dealer submits a claim to the manufacturer saying "this car will need X hours of work and these parts to fix it" and if the manufacturer can see it's been serviced within their dealer network they just approve the claim. If they can't see the full service history on their own system they will ask the dealer to submit full documentation and proof that the car has been serviced properly before approving any work, and that requires effort from the dealer - so they'd rather say no. It's not that they want to scam you out of warranty - they just don't want to put the effort in.
In the US, Magnonson-Moss prevents denial of warranty service unless the denier can prove that the damage being repaired under warranty was caused by "third party" work done on the thing being brought in for service.
Briefly looking at the market it seems it's mostly focused on those two use cases plus parents attempting to monitor their children's driving locations and habits. So they're also weaponizing our children to an extent.
Clearly some cellular technology is in use but this would require an eSIM or something from your local carrier. Do modern cars have "free internet" baked into them somehow that lets them upload this data? Whats the technology/protocol called ? How does it work in foreign countries with different carriers.
Edit: there also seems to be an “SOS” button to connect you with an operator of some kind. There is a dedicated button for that (saw it in this car, and a few other I’ve rented).
Edit 2: and this car seemed to know the speed limit. At first I was sure it’s doing some OCR, but then I realized that it gets it via the internet based on my location.
For a several years now, all new cars sold in EU must have an S.O.S. button that will call emergency services. As a result each and every car has some sort of SIM card built-in and a cellular plan that works across entire Europe.
This SIM card must be free, but its a gateway to things like upselling (pay us $XX and get a wifi in your car) and also a way for the manufacturer to have always-on connection with the car.
Some manufacturers (KIA/Hyundai, Ford, Toyota) offer complimentary free app that you can use to check car location, open/close it, turn on AC (hybrid/ev) etc. with option for more paid features.
Edit: As for the speed limit, its also Europe regulation from this year - car must know the speed limit and beep if you exceed it. Different manufacturers do it differently, but since this has been optional feature for so many years in every car, all manufacturers had this ready - and its mostly based on built-in navigation + road sign recognition. It could use cellular but since this has been feature for so long I don't think this is how it works in majority cases.
> VW Group proved their incompetence with regards to vehicle data and everything people accused Tesla of seems to happen at VW Group.
It is practically mandatory for manufacturers to do this.
Thanks to Starlink it is also possible for a private entity to track every device with cellular access. I don’t think people on here are ready for quite where all this goes.
Exactly.
People should vote for less government and should vote for those willing to defend freedom of speech.
Actually: we're heading towards that dystopian future because of all the government lovers and apologists.
There are only 40% of the EU citizens that don't want the EU. It's not enough.
40% of EU citizens are not right in their heads then. That number should be a lot smaller.
So per se both a bad thing, but I personally regard such expressions as dangerous for the long term democracy
"Democracy is the worst system, other than the rest". Ideally we would have an LSAT-like exam as a qualifier to vote, but any kind of testing to be allowed to vote would be manipulated eventually by corrupt administrations. Therefore, the only remedy to an ignorant society's decisionmaking is quality public education and broad suffrage.
The other half is what government there is should be doing a lot more to protect the privacy of people on their territory from foreign state and private entities.
If you float the idea of clamping down on the privacy violations of one thing in some sector of the economy you'll have the existing big players and the regulatory agency they're in bed with instantly complaining that they "need" these things in order to satisfy the regulators demands for records and paper pushing.
Imagine if there was a push to force cars back to the degree of connectivity they had in 2004. The EPA, the NHTSA, the big OEMS, they'd all be up in arms because they've gotten so used to all the number crunching make-work they've created for themselves over the past 20yr.
Sure, I understand that there is little I can do about it, but why are powerful people okay with their car company or phone company knowing everything about them?
Are people in California and the EU at least covered by data privacy laws?
The rich and powerful companies literally make the laws they want.
There will be no products without those “features”.
From the consumer standpoint, what’s the alternative? Every new vehicle has one of these devices (recently mandated in USA by 20XX). If you want to buy a new vehicle, there’s no option but to have a telematics device installed. If you think you’re competent enough to rip the component out yourself, hopefully it’s not integral to the functioning of the vehicle. If it isn’t, your warranty will be void if you do
At any rate, governments are all made of people who are also tracked at all times. Just because some parts of government would like mass surveillance, why would legislators who can do something about it be okay with having their car be constantly monitored by private parties or the police or anyone?
Why would legislators, donors, and lobbyists be okay with their own location data (and in some extreme cases like with Nissan their "sexual behaviors" etc) being sold to data brokers, for example?
Because using mass surveillance you can provide better service. That's a fact you can't argue with.