Belgium will ban sales of disposable e-cigarettes | Hacker News Reader

Belgium will ban sales of disposable e-cigarettes

npr.org

179 pointsgeox122 comments

I think a lot of people outside Europe will see this as overreach by the state, but given waste cleanup is paid for by the tax payer and is an ever increasing cost/problem, banning products needlessly adding to rubbish when inexpensive reusable alternatives makes sense.

I think you mean "a lot of people in the USA" :) In most of the other parts of the world, people would either see the wisdom of this approach because they understand good government, or not bat an eyelid because they're used to bad government (and consequently overreach).

Well the EU smokes more than the US so it's also just a bigger problem there.

Not so much, for e cigarettes :

% of users between 01/23 and 03/23, top countries:

Indonesia 32

Switzerland 30

Italia 25

UK 24

USA 23

[french] https://fr.statista.com/infographie/19421/part-des-fumeurs-q...

Also can’t find the source but I read they more prevalent for richer, more educated, urban people.

US wide averages for smoking are pretty useless. It varies a lot from region to region. It’s like taking the average of Europe, the continent.

Anyway, as someone from the states, I think banning disposable electronics is a great idea in general. E-cigs seem like a great place to start.

Yeah in the Netherlands most young people don't smoke anymore. In Spain a lot of them do and people even smoke in clubs etc while this is banned EU wide.

It doesn't bother me at all but it does happen.

He said smoke not just e-cigarette.

The state is responsible of public health and waste management anyways and those useless disposable vapes falls on these two categories.

Disposable vapes are also causing a lot of garbage truck fires now.

Throwing battery into trash can is a bad idea. And make the battery unremovable from trash is obviously even worse.

Another option would be to tax for the negative externality of waste disposal

Far more serious is that these disposable vapes are easily accessible to kids as young as 12. Literally one third of the kids in my child's secondary school are vaping in the toilets between classes. It would be much harder to do this if they had to pay for and use a large permanent vape . It's an epidemic and that is not hyperbole. The environmental gains of this ban are just icing on the cake.

I am one of these people that think its overreach.

People find some value in this product. Enough so they're buying it even though its expensive and potentially hazardous to their health. All the problems associated with that problem should be managed. We should have technology to manage the waste. It's an engineering problem and I'd much rather prefer that we engineer technology to serve what people want than try to engineer humans to adapt to limitations of our technology.

The most absurd manifestation of this attitude is an image heating people vs heating spaces and tries to unironically argue that people should prefer to live in cold spaces and just adapt with things like cozy furniture, warm clothes, hot drinks and local heating. Real dystopian stuff to anyone who has lived like this.

https://sketchplanations.com/heating-people-heating-spaces

Nowhere does that post or the image argue that people should prefer one over the other. Wearing warmer clothes instead of turning up the heater isn't a bad thing either, so I don't understand your hostility towards the idea?

Well, on the other hand, we as a society should be able to decide if we want to allow some people to make $billions selling purely addictive substances to other people in our society. And whether they get to mass produce a bunch of e-waste in their pursuit of those $billions that the rest of society has to deal with.

The personal choice aspect is actually the lesser consideration.

>but given waste cleanup is paid for by the tax payer and is an ever increasing cost/problem, banning products needlessly adding to rubbish when inexpensive reusable alternatives makes sense.

Why not tax it instead?

I buy disposable vapes because I convince myself it’s my last one. Once it runs out I’ll quit.

Buying a rig is accepting defeat.

Except this vape ran out faster than I expected. I have a big week at work coming up and I can’t afford the dip in energy level and productivity that comes with withdrawal. I’ll buy one more just this once and then I’ll quit for sure.

Amazing the hoops my mind jumps through for an addictive molecule.

Sounds like it could be time to get some professional help.

It might be better to accept what is right now and buy a rig but then play with the nicotine level to reduce it step by step. Once you reach 0 you won.

>be me

>do drugs because they're fun

>be you

>do drugs because they make you more pRoDuCtIvE

We're not the same.

You know they contain rechargeable batteries but are just missing the charging port and a few tiny chips?

Some of them are rechargeable, but you'll only cycle the battery 2-3 times before the juice is gone.

I went from disposables to a refillable one as part of my cutting down.

Being able to mix my own liquid meant I could slowly reduce my nicotine levels, whilst maintaining the habit of smoking, making it easier to finally come off it at the end.

Good luck!

Switch to unflavored. The flavorings likely act as MAO inhibitors and synergistically boost the neurological effects of nicotine which by itself is not significantly addictive (but can be habit-forming for some people).

Exception to the rule is menthol flavoring. Menthol is a kappa opioid agonist. In the nervous system, it produces dysphoria — opposite of euphoria, i.e. feeling bleak, anxious, depressed. This effect lasts longer than nicotine’s effect, leading to redosing.

This isn't a bad thing.

Financially it's ruinous to buy disposables when you can pick up a simple cigar sized vape with rechargeable battery and replaceable coil/pod for the same price, then refill it over and over again.

The amount of lithium ending up on the road and in bins is silly. The tax on vaping is putting the price of everything up, so now is the time to buy an Xross Pro or something that lasts all day.

For adults (who don't need to conceal their habit) it makes a lot of sense to buy coils/pods in quantity and keep a spare in the car/handbag.

Also ... Can we stop vilifying this life-saving habit? Smoking kills, we all know it. Vaping is MUCH safer and yes, just as addictive. Nicotine isn't the killer ingredient in smoking, so encourage people to vape, don't demonize them for it.

One thing that makes my blood boil, and I've seen it in many countries I've lived in, is that people who vape tend to see it as being fine to vape e.g. on trains. Here in Germany people are vaping in the trains nonstop, and while it's not as bad as people dropping cigarette butts on the street (usually literally directly next to a bin!), it still makes it difficult to respect the group, given how shockingly common it is.

> while it's not as bad as people dropping cigarette butts on the street (usually literally directly next to a bin!)

People are spitting on the streets here in the UK and it's disgusting.

But I've noticed it on transport here in the UK. They take a puff "cheeky-vape" then exhale it under in to their coat or in to some bag.

Could there be a device that would filter the exhaled air?

Make it a part of the e-cigarette, so that one can exhale back into the same thing or into a different port on it.

There is a filter type device for use indoors but it is standalone.

Honest question, asking for informed responses: How harmful is second-hand vape?

Littered cigarette butts don't biodegrade.

Second-hand smoke causes cancer and the smell lingers on material.

Does other people vaping near you in an enclosed space have a meaningful physiological effect or otherwise? Or is it just association with second-hand smoke that people decry?

Anecdotally, it seems to depend on the liquid. Some are very thick and give me an impression like I can’t breathe. Others aren’t so bad, but have an extremely vile smell.

I’d say I’m not particularly prejudiced against vaping in general, I actually do vape from time to time.

The vapor droplets contain the nicotine and other dissolved particulates so yes. And there are numerous studies showing heavy metal dissolution into them. I avoid them like the plague.

> Does other people vaping near you in an enclosed space have a meaningful physiological effect or otherwise?

Yeah it makes his "blood boil"

Honestly for most people their dislike of people smoking/vaping in shared areas is first about the smell, and only second about the health risk.

Even if it's 100% safe, which it isn't as are every other particulates you inhale, I don't like it, I don't want it. I don't walk around farting in elevators and burping in my fellow train commuters' faces even through it's perfectly safe, it's just basic common sense and politeness.

Vaping is safer, but calling it a "life-saving habit" is a stretch.

Your logic is the same as "picking up a rattlesnake is OK because it's not as deadly as a taipan".

Calling vaping safer without there being any good evidence for that is quite a stretch. However I despise this pure resource waste. Can we just stop that instead while we investigate the effects of inhaling burning copper and plastic?

We would need sufficient evidence to conclude it's as dangerous as smoking, which I'm not sure we have.

Also, we would need sufficient evidence to conclude that they all have the user inhale burning copper or plastic, which I'm not sure we have.

No, because that takes time, but that is my entire point. Claiming it is not as dangerous without actually knowing that is just, weird :/

It makes intuitive sense: all other things being equal, inhaling combustion products is worse than not inhaling combustion products. Thus, nicotine with combustion products is worse than nicotine without combustion products. We would need sufficient evidence to veer away from this data.

There's plenty of evidence, like most, you've just not bothered to search for it before forming your opinion.

If you're genuinely interested, I recommend starting with this report: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e-cigarettes-an-e...

This is honestly getting tiring. Not only is the billeting tone pointless, neither are those reports conclusive or evidence on their own. I formed my opinion over the years of the diseases that are being caused by a lot of people using these devices. Now these could be by overuse, other issues, bad mixtures, shoddy made devices, idk the list can continue. Maybe vaping is overpowered if controlled correctly. Could be. Just don't state it as a fact, when, in fact, it is not known.

Out of curiosity, can you list the diseases you mentioned?

It's pretty wild to call out someone's source as inconclusive but not link your own.

Not surprising though.

> Also ... Can we stop vilifying this life-saving habit?

As a former smoker I’ve recently started vaping because I love nicotine and I think the risk / reward is worth it.

Vaping has been around at this point for over a decade, yet the evidence of harm is minimal. Some inflammatory responses, oxidative stress and potentially pre cancerous changes in gene expression. But that’s pretty much it (for UK legal products at least).

I wouldn’t call it healthy but consider it more like alcohol or sugar rather than traditional tobacco.

Nicotine consumption causes the vascular system to constrict and a person's heart to start beating faster to push the blood through. Similar environment to a fetus in a over pressurized antibiotic sack, too much fluid. Doctors monitor for this and may remove fluid to depressurize so the heart and other major organs don't fail. Just like alcohol, nicotine does not have any health benefits.

People often over simplify complex systems. It is not just one, smoke, but multiple factors that cause health issues. Chewing tobacco proves toxicity is not just from carcinogens and tar build up in the lungs. Vaping may decrease the probability of dramatic health issues it does not drop it to 0.

It's actually not the nicotine that gives you cancer in chewing tobacco. And given all this harm with cigarettes isn't it sensible that we legalize a less harmful method that people have used quite successfully to wean off cigarettes when other efforts have failed them? Social smokers/vapers are always going to exist, the buzz goes together too well with booze, but there are people who do use this stuff to actually see substantially better health outcomes.

Here in Oz the banning of disposable nicotine vapes has led to an increase in organised crime activity.

Schoolkids are getting the vapes without any problems.

Great idea, but poorly implemented. I'll be interested to see Belgium avoids the issues we're having here in Australia.

For those not aware, they are most likely referring to an ongoing "tobacco war" among organised crime groups in Australia, with tobacconists becoming the targets of many arson attacks.

Obviously the illicit tobacco trade is a large/primary driver of this, but illicit vapes are also becoming a part of their business.

with tobacconists becoming the targets of many arson attacks

Are you saying that legitimate tobacco stores are being burned down by illicit tobacco traffickers? To eliminate competition?

More they are trying to intimidate rival gangs, or extort protection money.

They’re being attacked both for refusing to work with gangs or for working with a rival gang.

«many arson attacks» is a hyperbole.

There have been few isolated incidents of the tobacconist stores having been set ablaze, but it does not equate to, e.g. east coast Australian capital cities, being engulfed in putrid smouldering fires emanating from the said tobacconist shops.

Australian government introduced a (rushed) law in July this year that outlawed street sales of vapes and obligated local pharmacies to sell the officially licensed vapes instead, which has caused a uproar and a revolt on behalf of the Pharmacist Guild who bluntly refused to stock and distribute the vapes. The pharmacies that are not the guild members have made decisions at their own discretion. The drama is still unfolding.

A few isolated incidents?

There have been more than 70 arson attacks on tobacco stores and other businesses believed to be involved in the sale of illicit tobacco since March 2023, according to the Victoria police assistant commissioner Martin O’Brien.

Very well. You are correct, and I will admit my own ignorance with respect to the situation in Victoria as it appears to be wildly (in the literal sense of the word) different, and I used the NSW situational numbers.

ABC[0] reports following numbers for arson attacks on tobacconists across Australian states:

NSW: 14

Victoria: 130

Queensland: 30

South Australia: 12

Western Australia: 8

Whilst 14 (NSW) is more than a few, the order of magnitude difference compared with 130 (VIC) is a bewildering revelation, indeed, especially considering that NSW has a larger population. I do not know what makes NSW and VIC so different with respect to the matter at hand.

[0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-29/two-men-arrested-over...

I don’t think many is a hyperbole, it’s surpassed 100 arson attacks in Victoria alone…

Australian police: "We're not saying all tobacconists are linked with the sale of illicit tobacco, but what we are saying is that people are being targeted, businesses are being targeted because the organisers police allege are linked to the sale of illicit tobacco are simply standing over them."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-15/tweed-tobacconist-ram...

I have a hard time understanding that sentence.

Organizers of what? The businesses, or illicit tobacco?

What does standing over mean?

It's not clear to me why standing over would be a motivation for attacks.

Organisers of the threats to others.

To “stand over” is a verb meaning roughly to “threaten, with menace”.

But it doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s the party or parties that have undertaken the attacks.

It's multiple lebanese family/gangs (Haddara family and others) vs biker gangs - as far as I can tell from news reports.

Both these parties run tobacco stores in many states - licensing was/is non-existant or minimal, although they are now increasing the overview and requirements in states that were lax.

These stores were mostly branded as vape/convenience stores until the recent regulation changes, now they often sell american candy and various random things along with local gov sanctioned cigarettes ($50/pack minimum) or the imported packs ($15-25 pack) - you can guess which one they pretty much exclusively sell.

Asians (Vietnamese/Chinese) are also selling the imported cigarettes out of their own branded stores and also some of the big chain tobacco stores (TSG, Cignall).

There have been dozens of arson attacks against the Lebanese and Biker stores over the last few years, supposedly over territory and payments.

A lebanese nearby had its security facade destroyed and was torched black the day after last years Christmas.

The asians don't seem to be involved in the arson attacks, they may be importing it as many of the packs are korean/chinese, but unsure as also eastern european and english brands are available.

The government engineered this situation with its ridiculous taxation policy, it was effective up to a point but it's becoming reminiscent of the era of alcohol prohibition in the USA.

$50 a pack? Yeah at those prices you can bet a black market crops up.

IMO this is only causing more problems. It won't put people off smoking because cheaper illegal alternatives arrive and it will create heavy crime syndicates.

Had they made reusable vapes legal this wouldn’t have been an issue.

Reusable vapes are beyond commonplace in the US and there's still a huge problem with disposables.

For kids, they're expensive to purchase, expensive to replace when mom/dad take it away, and much harder to conceal from teachers and parents. It's harder to swap flavors and such, too.

Really, the issue is that public officials and police don't care. It took 3-4 years for NYC to start doing something about the thousands of illegal smoke shops.

They're only going to be expensive if they're the "premium" option. If reusable is the only option, then these $5 basic reusable vapes I see in google will go into stores everywhere on the same shelves that used to have disposables. They're small too.

The overhead of a charging circuit and a refillable or removable chamber is not much.

I know people who are grown adults who still buy the disposable vapes. You save zero money of course since they charge more than the given amount when you don't have to get the battery. I have no clue why they do it. I think part of it is psychological, like "oh I don't use the vape much I won't get myself an actual battery," then three beers in they are running across the street to the smoke shop for a disposable.

They wouldn't want to harm the profits of their friends big tobacco and the tax the govt get from ciggies.

If they cared about health you'd be able to get Snus too

If it's about taxes why not impose a tax on ecigs?

Cigarettes are the only form that is relatively easy to tax as they come with a standard dose of non nicotine that needs to ship with them to be accepted. Places that have tried to limit the volume of disposables or ban all nicotine liquid have found that it easy to smuggle a huge amount of value in a small space and/or to add purer nicotine at the last moment.

The tax wouldn't need in the nicotine though but on the devices since that's what we are disposing. How high would the tax need to be to make up for the cost of disposal? Would it be high enough to make smuggling attractive? AFAIK products in Germany (and the EU?) already have a recycling tax built-in for things like plastic packaging and it seems to work. Would this tax need to be that much higher to the point that smuggling is encouraged?

> Here in Oz the banning of disposable nicotine vapes has led to an increase in organised crime activity.

That organized crime already existed and this is just one of a dozen or so income streams for them. Hard drugs, human trafficking, and money laundering are probably orders of magnitude more profitable.

Also: people get murdered all the time, despite it being illegal. Clearly the law isn't working, so let's make murder legal! /s

Oh, and legalizing weed didn't do jack shit about dealers selling weed; the dealers are much cheaper, provide better service, and often better product (well, except the illicit stuff is likely to have much higher pesticide content.)

> Oh, and legalizing weed didn't do jack shit about dealers selling weed

This isn’t universal. Oregon estimates roughly 80% of marijuana purchases are through legal sources nowadays.

The real issue the state sees now is apparently illegal grow farms to supply other states that haven’t legalized or where the taxes are too high.

Source: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/01/14/oregon-mar...

People really don't want to believe that "just make it legal" actually works for some reason. There's primary and secondary industry in organized crime and cutting off the primary starves the secondary.

A drug policy that makes it so that nobody who does party drugs has contact with a dealer breaks the entire supply chain because there's no outside money coming in.

"just make it legal" has unintended consequences. The cartels, faced with the loss of income from illegally selling now-legal weed didn't starve. they didn't go "oh, hey, I guess we should stop being criminals". No, they pivoted to heroin which turned into dealing fentanyl with disastrous results for the US. We'll keep losing the war on drugs until we start fighting it with community assistance programs and jobs and houses and doctors and therapists.

Also just other types of tabacco. Either untaxed loose leaf or cheap cigarettes from overseas.

The ban hasn't really changed much on the crime side of things. Nicotine vapes were already illegal and they continue to import them through the same channels. The organised crime is primarily tobacco. It's low risk and poorly enforced, and probably very high margins where a pack of Chinese or counterfeit cigarettes is resold for $10 to $20 or so. Vapes and nicotine pouches are part of that too but I would wager tobacco is moved in significantly higher volumes.

Whether ecigs were legal or not, presumably kids would've had to go black market anyways?

Wouldn't it be better to tax all disposable objects in proportion to their impact on the environment or something like that? These single shot bans seem easy to go around.

That's not going to get rid of trash, its just going to remove more money from people's wallets as the tax gets passed to them. Might even open up a black market like we see with nyc cigarette taxes. Maybe if the tax went to local street cleanup initiatives or something it might do a sliver of good, but that's just one sort of litter out of the rest.

It would do a lot to reduce the amount of single use plastic packaging.

Sure, the plastic Coke bottle costs 1-2 cents less than the glass one, but the ecological problems it creates are at least an order of magnitude higher than that.

If Coke can either increase their prices by $0.01 or $0.10, and the $0.01 option is preferred by consumers, their choice will be clear.

It always depends to what scale you chose to measure the harm. Environmental plastic pollution? Sure plastic is way worse. Less broken glass on the sidewalk? Now that plastic is saving your kid and your dog a hospital trip. We are also assuming making the glass bottle is more environmentally friendly than making the plastic one.

Throwing plastic bottles on the sidewalk is plain littering. Throwing glass bottles is not just littering. Someone throwing glass bottles around definitely knows what he's doing and should be dealt with accordingly

In Belgium you already pay a specific 'disposal' fee when you purchase an appliance. This is on top of the regular sales tax of tyically 21%.

But most people don't recycle them, just dump them on a street corner or in a normal waste bin. This is really the problem. So much lithium is wasted and this is very heavy on the environment to extract.

All disposable items should be made illegal by default

Condoms too? Or do you suggest people wash them for reuse?

I have no answer for that. This does not mean there is no answer (yet). But if we never say "enough!" we can rest assured that nobody will ever innovate beyond what we currently have.

Meanwhile our governement has said it's not allowed to do this because it would need to be done at the EU level due to "market harmonisation rules" or some nonsense like that. Looks like they're full of shit, given that Belgium managed to do it...

It would be really helpful to know what government you are referring to.

This is (almost) always an excuse. The almost being if legislation is being prepared. There are so much examples of these kind of differences in neighboring countries, mainly alcohol and firework rules come to mind.

There was a time coke would give you a small amount to return the glass.

I don't really see the problem enforcing the same with disposable capes at the least. As others have commented they're almost reusable as it is.

Glass is highly recyclable. Some old plastic juul pod with burnt residue all over the atomizer I'd guess not.

Glass bottle fees in Belgium are 0.1€. You pay it at purchase and get it back when you return the bottle.

Only thing that surprises me is that it took so long.

I don't mind people vaping at all but there's no point in destroying the environment at the same time.

The UK's ban on disposable vapes will come into effect in June 2025.

Shouldn't we ban the word "disposable"?

"being able to get rid of by throwing away or giving or selling to someone else."

Most items labled as disposable don't just disappear. They disappear out of our mind but not from the planet.

The word gives the impression of false simplicity: The word makes complex waste management issues seem simple, absolving consumers of responsibility.

It is not a "new product" it is at least five years old product and it contained nicotine from the beginning.

This ridiculous timing always makes me wonder if it is result of lobby or sheer ignorance slash incompetence.

Finally! No more one use batteries, please!

What I find most maddening about it is that the batteries are technically rechargeable! The vapes just aren't configured to support it. (And the presence of nicotine "juice" in the vape - especially if it's been damaged, e.g. by being run over in a gutter - makes them difficult to recycle safely.)

What about typical AA and AAA batteries? They’ve been everywhere for decades.

Are they really more sustainable that these one-time -used lithium ones?

I've only used rechargeable AA/AAA batteries for a decade.

Not having to buy new ones is very convenient.

My favorite are the ones with built-in USB-C charging - they are so handy to have around! Posting here to help more people discover them:

https://www.amazon.com/MXBatt-Rechargeable-Battery-Capacity-...

I’m nervous that they’ll have poor or defective BMSes and catch fire.

Yeah, this worries me a bit! Never seen any issues, and I'm only using them in low-impact environments (keyboards + mice), and only charging while present.

Someone in the reviews posted test results and found they only had a 253-333mAh capacity at 1.5v (so 0.5Wh). 10440 lithium-ion cells (which closely match AAA size) have 250-350mAh at 3.7v (say, 1.295Wh).

If they actually had the 1200mAh capacity they say they'd have 1.8Wh which is much higher than a straight lithium-ion cell without the charging and voltage regulation circuitry taking up space.

I believe the review knocking the capacity, but I'll note the label says 1200mWh, not mAh.

Though even at their promised capacity, that's barely better than a normal rechargeable AAA.

I think if we sold daily short-term use items with sealed AA/AAA with the amount of sales as disposable vapes, we'd be having the same discussion about AA/AAA batteries now. But we don't. Aside from anomalies like, say, the Gameboy or Game Gear, traditional batteries are used in things like remotes or smoke detectors, where you might need to replace the batteries every few months.

> Aside from anomalies like, say, the Gameboy or Game Gear

And at the time there weren't good rechargable options. If modern NiMH had existed a few years earlier, lasting just as long as alkaline for a dollar each, they would have been the normal power source for those hungry devices.

Even back then, people I knew would use NiCad in those devices to save money.

I had an external battery pack for my Gameboy, could play and charge off the wall at the same time.

IIRC, no indicator of charge, just had to guess based on the contrast setting. I think it did eventually fail to hold a charge, but it lasted several years, at least. Not as good as NiMH from several years later though, but it was better than buying batteries all the time.

Not powerful enough to power an ecig coil... they would die after a few pulls at most.

When was the last time you saw a AA/AAA battery on the ground ?

I see discarded disposable vapes multiple time a day every day, I don't remember the last time I saw a battery.

That's not enough. See sell it with a charge port. It will still be thrown away after one use.

Is there any money in collecting and recycling disposable vapes?

Nope!

YouTubers have made rechargeable battery packs and e-bike batteries out of them. That could save you money or you could sell them on eBay/Etsy/etc.

It makes me unreasonably angry when I see disposable vape litter. Such a waste of valuable resources. I’d love to see disposable electronics and disposable lithium batteries strongly discouraged everywhere.

Not disagreeing with you but vape trash is a great way to collect totally functional rechargeable batteries.

Turning Disposable Vapes into a Fast Charge Power Bank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehp23hrrEHY

How well manufactured are these batteries though and would you want to rely on them in pack?

Yeah this seems like a great way to burn down your house.

That's just one example. You can use them also for hobby diy hardware projects like arduino and raspberry pi to convert them into being battery powered iot things.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com