Hacker News Reader

Comment by vunderba | Hacker News Reader

From the article:

> But I have yet, until now, to point at the elephant in the room and ask whether it is ethical to work for Big Tech, taking all of the above into consideration.

People often highlight "boycotting" as the most effective action an individual can take to drive change, but for those who work in tech, the most powerful message you can send is denying your labor.

To me, this isn’t even about whether "Big Tech" companies are ethical; it’s a matter of ideological principle. FAANG companies already wield far too much power, and I refuse to contribute to that imbalance.

View on HN

> denying your labor.

that's still boycotting. but it needs to be active rather than passive to send a message. not applying for work is not enough, you have to decline at offer stage on stated principles. i dont think most would go through that effort.

only the highest level individuals who Big Tech tries to poach can do this without much time invesment because they effectively have offers at first contact.

I don't think anyone is obligated to go through the entire interview process just so they can decline the offer.

Yes, you'd waste a few hours of some expensive engineers' time, and more hours of relatively cheap recruiter time - but sending the recruiter a big ol' fuck you on first contact gets the message across just fine.

not sure if recruiters will give a shit. they cast really wide, low-effort nets. until you get to offer stage you're a nobody, and to get to offer you usually have to expend non-trival time/effort.

You'd be surprised: Next time a recruiter from some big tech corp sends you an e-mail try explaining why you don't want to join them.

I've had a recruiter try to convince me that working for Facebook isn't all that bad.

But I'm not sure how much of this sentiment that they hear from people is actually routed to the companies themselves.

I don't think any of these things ultimately work. There will always be someone who will take the money or the deal. Advocating for regulation is the most effective way forward. But probably the first thing to advocate for is some notion of "equal speech," not just "free speech," otherwise it will be very hard to get any new regulation passed.

By equal speech I mean that people should have equal opportunity to be heard and pitch ideas when it comes to political advocacy. If the rich can send a million messages for every one of yours, no one will ever hear or listen to you.

> There will always be someone who will take the money or the deal.

And even if there wasn't, that'd give them even MORE ammo to go screaming for easier access to H-1B and similar such imported labor.

I agree. This is what I have been doing:

- Respond with a template explaining why I don't want to work for Google|Amazon|Meta|Microsoft|Apple

- Include information of some tech unions the recruiter could join and give reasons to do so

- Talk to colleagues about concerns and what can we do to mitigate current power imbalances

- Talk to family and friends about the industry, its impact on society, and provide help if they would like to try alternative technologies

Wouldnt it be even more effective to take a job there and provide them half assed labor?

No.

How do you think we got here?

Turns out network effect can compensate for a lot of incompetence and lethargy. Many (most?) big tech engineers are likely already cruising.

Try do something you actually believe is good instead of coping by telling yourself you are intentionally failing to do something bad.

I would consider that unethical, and would not do it.

For many reasons, I live a life of extremely rigorous personal ethics.

I don’t insist that others do the same, but I do need to protect myself from others that assume my ethical stance to be weakness.

For example; I make it a point to always keep my word.

Unethical folks that know this of me, are constantly trying to get me to make commitments, without divulging the costs to me, or the boundaries of said commitments.

It’s my responsibility to make sure that I have full disclosure, before making a commitment.

Many people become quite jaded and misanthropic, when faced with this. I tend to find it amusing, watching people try weaseling out of giving full information. Often, these efforts tell me more about things, than full disclosure up front will.

I like people, and can call some really rapacious bastards friend. My ethical stance is truly entirely personal, and I have worked closely, with some spectacularly flawed people.

Scott Adams (He Whose Name Has Been Struck From The Lists) wrote an extremely cynical book, called The Way of the Weasel, which is downright prescient.

-100x engineer. straight from the field CIA manual for sabotage PDF.

that's different from half-assing though

Reply on news.ycombinator.com