Newly released UFO files from the UK government
ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk
ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Now, this is obviously a simplistic breakdown. Broadly speaking, however, this is usually what we see in such debates. (With typically much ridicule being thrown about by both sides.) Files like these, though, give even the most hardened skeptics room for wonder. While I do not doubt the logical validity of the skeptics positions, there is nevertheless a large body of evidence (circumstantial though it may be) which becomes difficult to deny when taken in the aggregate.
These files are, unfortunately, just more in the circumstantial category. Although they have the "official" seal of approval they are still, at root, not hard evidence. It is frustrating to those of us who are curious about this that nothing beyond eyewitness reports ever seems to surface, no matter the source. I think most people at least pay attention to these news items, but do not know what to make of them beyond raising more questions.
While I am personally on the fence about believing the accounts any gov has - clearly we know basically nothing of the universe relative to its size and existence.... so I will withhold judgement in any form - but lets look at the examples through history:
The earth is flat. The Sun revolves around the earth. Germs dont exist. What is this radiation malarky? There are no other planets in the universe. There are no other solar systems like ours in the universe. Lets kill eachother over imaginary rulers and their rules. etc etc etc
People are STUPID.
So, are there UFOs? No idea - but I have sen weird stuff and I will never let another human tell me what the limits to the universe are. I'd prefer to just keep seeking, keep experiencing life and the wonders of all that is.
The fact that Humans exist proves there is some intelligence in the Universe, lets just hope we are not the pinnacle as that would be rather sad.
I would suggest rather than depend on personal observation and anecdotal evidence you listen to groups of others who are actively seeking out information.
We no longer believe the earth is flat because of a consistent and large amount of data has told as otherwise.
We have already sent probes beyond our system and to many planets within our system and we only discovered FLIGHT 100 years ago.
Just imagine 1,000 years from now.
> Just imagine 1,000 years from now
Like flying cars in the year 2000? ;-)http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
We have already sent probes beyond our system and to many planets within our system and we only discovered FLIGHT 100 years ago.
Just imagine 1,000 years from now.
I think it's just as likely that technological development will follow an S curve as remain exponential. Look at Moore's Law -- the laws of physics provide a hard ceiling for certain kinds of technological progress.
> So, are there UFOs?
No doubt, if you talk about unrecognized flying objects which can be anything—from weather baloons to weird clouds.
Were ther aliens? I don't think so. Yes, there may be another intelligent life in the universe, but even so I think it is too far away even for the signal from it to reach another one within the lifetime of their exsistance.
Physical visit is even many many orders of magnitude less likely.Think about it. 500 years we were not even able to push something called electricity through a cable; today we push gigabits of data through the air using wi-fi.
Just thinking where we will stand technologically in next 1000 years just blows my mind. If you have a thinking organisms similar to human that were left alone to evolve in timeframe of 500 million years, its unimaginable what those creatures could come up with. Unimaginable!
The very idea that there are these EVIDENTALLY POINTLESS light shows or bumbling crafts in the sky that very clearly look like 1950s SciFi is emanating from some supposed hyper intelligent species that can travel many, many orders of magnitude faster than light or vaguely somehow travels through wormholes, or comes from some other dimension, just play little games of hide and seek is just ludicrous. I find solipsism less fantastic than that. The scale of the universe is incomprehendible. These "speeds" tales about go way beyond "space debris." I don't want to ve a kill joy, but really look at the physics of this stuff. It's very satisfying to say "ya but people used to think fire was made of phlogiston," but I claim that are scientific knowledge is of a fundamental different quality than previous. It's the difference between believing babies come from storks versus detailed biological blah blah knowledge.
Having presidents and the like pay lip service to these ideas is not really a big. I mean, Sarah Palin of all things, was almost VP. Also, there is something called the Nobel Syndrome, where even Nobel prize winners believe the stupidest things you can imagine, such as homeopathy, and the like (also MD disease for people like Dr. Oz).
Do you really state that modern science does not violate any principle of what was considered the best of physics knowledge 500 years ago? We are talking about 1512 here, the year Copernicus started writing what would turn into De revolutionibus orbium coelestium. It would take practically another 150 years for people to start thinking about explaining the motion of planets with an inverse square law.
For the record, the classical period of witch hunt was 1480-1750, and many of the things that are part of our daily life would have sent us directly to be burnt at the stake back in 1512:
- Creating light without fire
- Driving vehicles that move without being drawn by an animal, in a devilish smell
- Watching talking heads in a box
- Speaking to people who are over a mile away
- Resurrecting dead people (at least, "dead" as far as 1512 physicians could tell)
The problem with your reasoning is that you filter ancient "science" according to today's knowledge, instead of considering what was considered knowledge back then. As a result, you don't see a contradiction between what we know today and what was known back then, when there really is one.
Here is a great example. Isaac Newton today is considered as a great scientist. Yet to him, his physics work was secondary to his alchemy work. Do you think Newton was stupid not to know that alchemy was a "pseudo science"? Or does that indicate that back then, alchemy was as valid a field of research as the motion of planets? For that reason alone, I claim that our current technological advancements "categorically violate principles of physics" as they were known at the time of Newton.
A more recent example is the theory of aether, which was considered perfectly legitimate less than 150 years ago. And let's not even talk about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which even Einstein had trouble digesting, or Goedel's theorem, which was the exact opposite of what leading 1900-era mathematicians like Poincarre were expecting.
Science is a belief system. What makes it strong is that it changes over time. Unfortunately, some take science as a complete and eternal belief system, i.e. what is not scientific provable cannot be taken seriously, and what we know today constrains what we will know tomorrow. Both arguments are often used by "skeptics" as a "rationale" against God or UFOs. The truth is that science is not complete: what we cannot experiment with is not scientific. That includes, in the current state of know-how, both God and UFOs. Self-proclaimed "skeptics" should take a hard look at past "knowledgeable people" who fought Pasteur, Einstein, Galileo or other revolutionaries based on established knowledge.
Let me finish with the fact that UFO observations do not violate known physics laws. Some people observe what appears to be devices traveling at high velocity, with very high accelerations and often without emitting (much) sound, and with an intent (if not an intelligence). Often, observations are made by a sufficiently large body of people and correlated with enough physical evidence to make it as solid as the advance of Mercury's perihelion. Occam's razor recommends that we take the simplest explanation. If it flies like an alien spaceship and quacks like an alien spaceship, then it is likely to be an alien spaceship.
While we do not know how to build such devices, there is no theoretical impossibility that I'm aware of. Even assuming an intelligent extraterrestrial origin does not violate laws of physics. We observe that we are the third most intelligent species on this planet, but nothing dictates that we have to be even in the top 10 in the universe. At worst, faster-than-light travel violates special relativity, which is an outdated understanding of the structure of space-time by today's standards. Many serious physicists have proposed ways to travel faster than light. And even if there is no practical way to travel faster than light, there's nothing to say that extraterrestrial don't have extremely long lifespans.
In short, deciding to dismiss UFOs out of hand is highly non-scientific. It seems to be little more than a deep-rooted fear of the unknown. There is evidence for UFOs, not just sociological, but also a few rare leftovers (e.g. radar recording, radioactivity in the soil, etc). It's not enough data to be able to build solid science yet, but then, that was the case for planetary motion data 500 years ago.
And thus you shouldn't believe it. The fact that you add the yet at the end of your sentence shows that you have already made up your mind and believe that there are ETs and you are looking for the evidence to prove it, instead of looking at the evidence coming to a conclusion from the available evidence.
Also you have to think in probabilities: what is more likely - that a radars fail and people misinterpret readings or that there is actually faster-than-light travel and ETs are almost stealthily looking at us, trying not to be seen but still failing? The available evidence strongly converges to the first hypothesis.
I find it odd that a crazy-advanced civilization would do such boring and mundane thing like hovering in the sky and sometimes land on earth. What would be the agenda?
Let's say you're proto-L. Ron Hubbard from the Marcab planet. You're a racecar driver, things are going great. Bang. You get recruited into Super Crush All Known Physics Astronaut Troope. You're commander, Xenu (ok I'm playing loose with Scientology fiction), decides "Hey, we rock and can travel at (speed of light)^1000000000 in our massless spaceships (not DC-10s, for those playing at home), so why don't we travel Earth (can't spell the Tegeeak word), and camoflauge as either several little balls of light, or 1950s inspired discs and just fly around at Subsonic speeds in Earth's atmosphere and just invite wide speculation as to what we are and maybe let the little creature's weird "government system" scurry around to hide all the evidence that we exist to the other the little creatures."
Does this even make sense? If you were proto-L. Ron Hubbard, wouldn't you say "Hey Xenu, we're the freaking masters of the universe, we can fold all of space time into our cool PDAs and play mega awesome Minecraft like games with, why would we do something stupid like that?"
I think it's incredibly important to remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Honestly, where is the barrier between the two? I'm not suggesting it doesn't exist, just genuinely asking where it is, or at least where it's near?
Now, before you say it doesnt matter whether you travel at the speed of light, faster or slower, the moment you catch up with space debris, you become a crashed and burnt debris yourself. If all physical objects vibrate at some rate, then as wild as my imagination can go, it may be possible to speed up this rotation of a physical object so much that would eventually become... a wave.
Consider the age of the universe: 14.6 billion years. Earth was formed about 10 billion years after the universe, and it took 5.4 billion years for the Earth to see the emergence of a civilized species, which has existed for an absolutely microscopic amount of time compared to those enormous intervals.
How long does a species last, realistically? Counting from its "space age", would a species survive a thousand years, ten thousand? Extinction from natural disasters, epidemics, war and the like could be averted by scattering oneself across a solar system or wider. How many civilizations could reach that stage?
I have absolutely no doubt that a myriad of alien life exists. But I think the chances that there exists alien species that:
* has evolved before us or roughly at the same time,
* has not driven themselves to extinction
* achieved the technological capability for crossing galaxies, and
* is willing to do so
…is exceedingly slim. Even if a species develops space-faring tech needed to visit Earth, I think it's extremely unlikely that their existence will coincidence with us. They are either all dead by now, or they will be dead before we/they develop the tech to visit, or they don't exist yet, and we will all be dead first.
In the near future, not only we will continue to stretch average life expectancy, but we will continue to mesh technology with living tissue. Today we can have metal bones, joints, metal plates in human brain, porcelain teeth, all sort of signal strengtheners (fake eye, hearing devices, etc), nothing tells we will stop developing those more in the future. No, we have a long way before we could live forever, but definitely mechanical devices that can least 500 years (fake heart, lever, lungs, etc etc) will stretch our lives X-fold. I would assume if some civilization flies UFO crafts, they most likely advanced on other fields as well.
[1] http://blog.ted.com/2011/03/07/printing-a-human-kidney-antho...
If there is some reality in this phenomenon, it is possible to find evidences in the testimonies that can be indirectly objectively checked. This is science process.
So we have to believe 1) ET doesn't want us to know about him and 2) ET is mega advanced but is so stupid that a bunch of rednecks and believers in woo/psi have discovered him (not that every "believer" is like that but clearly Joe Bob has discovered, so ET is evidently a mega physicist but sucks at basic hide and seek even with dimension traveling technology?). It's just too much nonsense.
1) ET doesn't know how to communicate with us. We don't know how to communicate with most animals on the planet, yet they share most of our DNA. How would you communicate with a being that has no notion of sound, has a sense of smell based on silicon biology, can't touch you without dying or killing you, and has a vision only in deep infrared?
2) Interstellar travel, while possible, is very expensive, so scientific expeditions behave like our own expensive scientific expeditions say, to the moon: touch, collect samples, and go.
3) There's a sort of prime directive or at least an attempt at letting us evolve in our own way.
As for the faking argument, it's like saying that because there's been a few Titanic movies, the Titanic didn't exist... It's the opposite: there's interest in faking it only because there is something. Otherwise, we'd also routinely see fake witches, fake angels and daemons, fake faeries, fake invisible people and fake ghosts.
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Offici...
It's a very good read. Also, in all UFO threads there should be a disclaimer that you are not making a point by pointing out that UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object not Alien Spaceship; most people when referring to the truly unexplainable cases use them interchangeably since extraterrestrial origin is one of the few hypotheses that are consistent with the evidence, though it's never obviously conclusive.
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-National-Security-State-Chronolog...
It covers the intersection of military/governmental organizations and the phenomenon, mostly in the latter half of the 20th century. The short version would be to search YouTube for Richard Dolan. He's a great speaker and presents the information in a way that should be palatable for even the hardest skeptic.
Edit: I won't sit through 2hrs of slow-talking elderly men reminiscing about that time they see some unexplained lights in the sky. It is difficult to take proponents of the ET-hypothesis serious if they always point to such bad evidence.
Edit: To be honest, I'm surprised the extraterrestrial hypothesis is considered so absurd by scientifically minded people. Clearly it's absurd to assume that we're the only 'advanced' civilization in the universe, the place where it's a grey area is if a much more advanced civilization would have the means or the interest to visit our planet, and if they did, if the phenomenon of UFOs jives with what we'd expect to see if they did. This is up for debate, obviously, but I am not sure why logic doesn't dictate that the odds are reasonable that such a scenario could exist. Fermi's paradox makes you wonder.
You should see a psychologist.
I found gfodor's comments to be reasonable, though I have no idea if they're backed by real evidence. I wouldn't jump to conclusions myself unless I had more thoroughly looked at it.
For any two given planets in the galaxy that could support intelligent life, in all likelihood the technological progress of those lifeforms will not align, and it won't be close. Imagine one civilization encountering another, except the first is 50,000 years more technologically advanced. Or 500,000 years. Or 5 million years. What would happen?
The more advanced civilization wouldn't be playing games to keep from being discovered, that's for sure. They wouldn't care. Even visiting the planet would be a total waste of time since with that level of technology they could certainly observe from afar.
There are larger problems with the ET hypothesis, though, and that is why generally, descriptions of beings associated with lights in the sky, although also often associated with knowledge of new technology and with kidnapping, are described in physical details differently by different cultures. Even in somewhere as narrow 10th century Europe, you have at least three different, if you will, species of entity associated with this sort of thing.
So this leaves the ET hypothesis with two bad choices, which are either we are more observant than our ancestors which is patently false, or else there is some intersteller convention somewhere which divvies up cultures for observation and follows them as they move around, and stops when the culture changes sufficiently. That starts to sound very implausible.
Also, things are always described in a sociological context. What we would call "automobiles" would have been called "chariots of fire" by our elders.
I don't think you can have regional stability and such variation between regions with that hypothesis. I think an anthropological one makes more sense.
The "crackpot" statement aside, I think it's incredibly disturbing that a scientist of his stature makes absolute predictions like we'll never travel to another star. I believe he is pretty good at his job, but saying something is impossible -- based on our current understanding of physics -- seems silly. No one in the physics community could say that our understanding of the universe is complete. The most prevalent theme in physics today is still the incompleteness of our understanding. We can't reconcile our understanding of the largest things in the universe with our understanding of the smallest. Although we can measure gravity, predict and observe its effects, we have no consistent explanation for it.
I'd say that thousands of years of fiction (speculative or otherwise) remain largely unaffected by hundreds of years of physics. Our understanding of the universe is still in its infancy.
We also have a history of having our deepest beliefs overturned by progress. Why would the beliefs of the late 20th century be any different?
[Edited for language use]
[Edit]
He dismissed the idea of time travel in that article, not interstellar travel. My criticism still applies.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/07/steven-hawking-on-tim...
Not true:
Hawking: Humans must colonize other planets http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15970232/ns/technology_and_scien...
'by using "matter/antimatter annihilation," velocities just below the speed of light could be reached, making it possible to reach the next star in about six years. "It wouldn't seem so long for those on board," [Hawking] said.'
but yeah, most are either crackpots or reasonable but naive people.
BTW, I don't accept the extraterrestrial explanation. I think when you look even over the last 50 years, descriptions and portrayals of UFO's have evolved with the times, and phenomena which are generally comparable in the outlines go way back, but are very culturally dependent.
The problem with the extraterrestrial hypothesis is actually remarkably simple and that is that one has to account why non-human entities which are reported to kidnap people, and have advanced technology, and are associated with lights in the sky, are so fundamentally culturally portrayed? Is it reasonable to think, really, that there is some great ET convention where they divvy up our cultures and follow them? That doesn't sound reasonable to me. I think it is more likely that there are multiple components to the sightings, some of which we may not know what they represent yet, and some of which may be our projection and making sense of what we see.
"I am afraid we have a slight political problem. This ufologist is of course the Earl of Clancart, with whom HMG exchanged views in the Lords Debate. I feel our political masters would think it improper if the RAF News should be too rude about him. I suggest the problem could be resolved without altering any of the text from "Brinsley ...." to ".....interior of the earth" but toning down the faintly derisory setting and letting the idiocy of the Earl's ideas speak for themselves."
A friend and I witnessed formations of lights sweeping across the horizon making 90 degree turns in the blink of an eye.
There you go.
I don't doubt it at this point. I really just have two thoughts, maybe three.
1) I really want to see it for myself.
2) Is it of present-tine Earth origin?
3) Please come to me and take me somewhere magical!
There are a myriad of natural phenomena, optical illusions and - dare I say - mental aberrations that could account for one seeing lights in the sky.
I've seen several objects in the sky that I've not been able to immediately explain. Having been 'tricked' in this way and later realising the 'natural' explanations the idea of UFOs being explained as extra-terrestrial is not at all surprising to me.
It was unidentified, flying an most definitely and object.
It could just be aliens playing with their equivalent of pocket laser lights that people use to annoy others at movie theaters, watch dogs chase, etc.
The aliens shine them, and watch you guys on the ground go nuts, and laugh their asses off.
I have no priors for technologically advanced alien life.
And yet still people choose to focus their energies on UFO conspiracies, despite releases like these showing the true meaning behind the term UFO: stuff that looks weird in the sky and can't be identified by the viewer.
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-obama-administration-s-s...