Hacker News Reader

Comment by epgui | Hacker News Reader

The only part of this that is totally implausible is the notion that Magnus wouldn't be super familiar with the rules.

I'm not saying I agree with the rule or the specific way it was applied... But Magnus definitely knows the rules.

Edit: for people downvoting... Can you please explain how the world's best chess player of all times wouldn't be familiar with FIDE rules? How is that even plausible? All of the players who compete at these events know the rules.

View on HN

The rules themselves aren't clear. In fact the rules say that jeans themselves are allowed. The rule is about having frayed worn, or light portions on jeans.

Magnus pants were fine. He is absolutely correct that they were singling him out and you can look back to many recent tournaments to see the clear double standard.

The rules say no such thing, and seem pretty clear to me.

    4.10.1. The dress code is strictly observed for the
    tournament and all the official events and press
    conferences.

    4.10.1.1. Dress code for men.

      Shoes: Oxfords, loafers, leather shoes or boots, classic
    suite shoes.

      Dark-coloured pants: black, navy, grey, beige, brown, in
    any case unicoloured. No bright colours.

      Long-sleeved light-coloured (white, light blue, beige,
    brown, etc.), blue or black shirt, in any case
    unicoloured. No bright colours.

      Dark-coloured jacket, waistcoat or cardigan with
    buttons: black, navy, grey, beige, brown, in any case
    unicoloured. No bright colours.

      Jacket, waistcoat or cardigan may be taken off during
    play.

    Tie is not mandatory.

    [...]

    4.10.1.3. No players with t-shirts, jeans, shorts,
    sneakers, baseball caps or inappropriate dress are allowed
    in the playing area. Any requests to wear national or
    traditional dress shall be approved by FIDE Supervisor.

    [...]

    4.10.9. If a player fails to fulfil his/her duties listed
    in Articles 4.10.1, 4.10.4 – 4.10.8, he/she can be
    penalised by FIDE Council as follows: 5% of his/her prize
    money shall be forfeited to the Organiser and a further 5%
    to FIDE for each breach. In cases of serious misconduct,
    the player may be disqualified from the event.

Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_regulations_2024_...

So it says nothing about jeans at all? Magnus was wearing unicoloured navy jeans at the time, which fall within the rules you quoted.

Refusing to match him with a competitor because of this, effectively preventing him to compete, was disproportionate regardless.

Edit: I see you added a section that specifically disallows jeans after I posted my comment. We could have saved some time.

I thought it was clear from the context and phrasing that "dark-coloured pants" excluded jeans, but in case there was any doubt:

    4.10.1.3. No players with t-shirts, jeans, shorts,
    sneakers, baseball caps or inappropriate dress are allowed
    in the playing area. Any requests to wear national or
    traditional dress shall be approved by FIDE Supervisor.

Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_regulations_2024_...

Thank you, I had missed the section about jeans. I stand corrected.

To a Norwegian reader, blue jeans are definitely included in "pants".

It's entirely possible to read 4.10.1.1, conclude that blue jeans are fine, and then skim over 4.10.1.3.

However the Carlsens read it, after reading it, years will have passed. Carlsen didn't dress like he did after a studious read of the rules. He just put on some nice clothes that were no different from what he usually wears at tournaments.

Except he forgot a belt. A proper organiser would have offered to lend him one.

I would assume (but can't know for sure, of course) that Magnus receives the rules before every event, and that he probably has people to help prepare/brief him on anything he needs to know.

He's not a regular participant, Magnus is almost an institution of his own.

Either way, it's literally his job to follow the FIDE rules (which is unusual but true), and he's the best in the world at his job.

---

> "It's entirely possible to read 4.10.1.1, conclude that blue jeans are fine, and then skim over 4.10.1.3."

In all fairness I originally did the same, so I hear ya. But I'm not a pro at this.

> He's not a regular participant, Magnus is almost an institution of his own.

He is also very much no in agreement with FIDE (a tradition for chess champions - see Fischer, Kasparov). And to be honest FIDE is on FIFA level when it comes to being dodgy as an organisation so it’s hardly surprising.

When you attend a conference, how much time do you dedicate to studying the terms of the event?

Presumably after years of coming to these events in dress pants and jackets, around other players all wearing suits, he would know the rules without having to read them. It's not like they changed the rules just to catch him out.

This is some combination of

- "I'm above the law"

- teenage rebellion

- protest against the system

He's in his 30s

It's interesting how much simpler the dress code for women is.

4. 10. 1. 2. Dress code for women.

Classic shoes.

Trouser or skirt suit or dress, preferably unicoloured, but not mandatory

Women in general have much more freedom in the way they can dress. There are also higher expectations and more unwritten rules.

Agreed, but on the surface of it one might think that given the more varied ways that women might dress, they need more rather than less written rules for women vs men to control the way they actually do dress (at FIDE events).

So, the logical conclusion is perhaps, no surprise, that FIDE don't really want to enforce a strict dress code, but rather want to promote the sport, and that translates differently into dress codes (or lack of them) for men vs women...

>The dress code is strictly observed for the tournament and all the official events and press conferences.

Meanwhile Arkady Dvorkovich, President of FIDE : https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1hntyjb/arkady_dvork...

Dvorkovich is putins puppet, covering for Medvedev when putin was pretending to take a break.

Honestly, it doesn’t matter whether the rules are clear or not. FIDE isn’t a rule enforcement agency.

FIDE is an agency that exists to promote and develop chess.

Magnus Carlsen is the biggest draw in the chess world by far.

A minor dress code violation should have been dealt with a fine as the rules very much allow for the benefit of the game.

Also, I don’t think there’s a single player who would complain about that (well, other than Kramnik, but Kramnik complains that spectators breathe too loud and that’s cheating).

And then FIDE should have stepped back and thought about the recent growth in the popularity of chess, since the pandemic and thanks to the work of the likes of Magnus and Gothamchess and should have reconsidered the strict dress code rules in the first place.

Not true at all. I've seen Hikaru talk about how he doesn't usually read the rules of tournaments and has been surprised by them.

I would find that a bit surprising. Do you happen to remember where you heard him say this?

Sounds plausible enough to me.

I don’t read the license agreement of every bit of software or the privacy policy of every website, after all.

I think this is more akin to reading the rules of a formal assembly before participating (eg.: a senate or a formal committee). These guys do chess events for a living. :shrug:

I’ve competed in many running races, and I’m not sure if they even have written rules. Presumably they do, but I’ve never read them. You don’t need to, everyone knows what a race is.

Likewise, I use GPL software daily, for a living - doesn’t mean I’ve ever read the license.

It depends on the race, sometimes there are rules that might surprise you. One that I recently signed up for has pretty specific gear requirements for 10k/21k/42k/60k. Trail races can have strict rules as well, like the type of compass and nutrients you need.

Exactly. They play chess for a living.

You need to care about the bits around the actual chess playing, but regulations for these things are overwhelmingly made of "play nice, be reasonable, don't be a dick" rules. If you try to play by those high-level rules, apologise if you break the nitty gritty of the low-level rules and fix things at the earliest opportunity, it shouldn't be a big issue. Also, things like dress code can easily be a "not an actual rule, just convention" sort of affair.

It’s very common for sports professionals not to have memorised the rules for every aspect of their sport.

They’re professionals because they understand the game and are in the top 1% of people who play it. Not because they are the best at memorising rules. The latter group are people Who become umpires/referees instead.

One can be a professional champion and referee and professional referee, all at the same time, just not in the same game event.

Sure, but I feel you’re missing the point with that comment.

I get paid to attend conferences for my job, I rarely read the detailed rules of the conference and venue. I assume they all say common sense stuff and are mostly the same. It's no different for chess players

I remember Hikaru saying such things too, on livestreams (twitch or kick). More than once.

I have no sympathy for a professional player who can't be bothered, or thinks it's beneath them, to read the rules of the tournaments they're participating in. It is literally your job. I'm guessing these guys are sponsored, get income from speaking appearances, tutoring, and so on. If you're getting paid for what you do, you have no right to complain about having to read tournament rules. At the same time, it behooves tournament organizers to standardize on rules, or at least summarize how their rules differ from some standard.

It makes me wonder if he's been enabled by tournament organizers being lax about enforcement of the rules for top players, when it should be the opposite - those with the most experience should be held to the highest standards because they should know better.

Women athletes who are forced to wear what amounts to underwear when the men aren't - they have a valid complaint about uniform standards. This sounds like a bunch of whiny silver-spooned brats.

Magnus Carlsen is extremely wealthy due to part ownership in large chess sites. He does not need income from these tournaments.

Everyone is saying it's literally their job to know the rules, but for players like Hikaru and Magnus, this is not their job in any meaningful sense, it's a hobby.

Also, Magnus isn't lookirg for sympathy, he's just saying why he can't be bothered complying with these regulations, there's not that much in it for him.

> It is literally your job.

It's not his occupation in some ways. He makes a lot more money from every other venture, so there is not a major economic incentive for him. Likewise, he works with creators and platforms that pull in big numbers of engaged viewers.

> Women athletes who are forced to wear what amounts to underwear when the men aren't - they have a valid complaint about uniform standards.

For what it's worth that was the same organization - FIDE - that has made those terrible choices in the past as well.

hikaru's comment is that fide run stuff is not at all how chess players make money, if they make money.

for the most part theyre paying a lot for non-playimg middlemen to be in the way

> Women athletes who are forced to wear what amounts to underwear when the men aren't

What

Agreed. I’m just thinking about NFL players who have crazy wardrobe leeway in and out of games, but somehow adhere to the minutiae of game time uniform codes. Not because of the insane attention they put into their craft, but because of clear financial or competitive penalties for doing otherwise (that impacts people and time invested in them).

That's because the team's equipment managers lay all of their gear out for them. I doubt any player could confidently answer a minutae-level question about the league's uniform policy.

Not totally true. All NFL teams have dress codes. Some of those players with flamboyant outfits actually pay fines every week. They justify the fines as part of the cost of promoting an individual brand over the team brand or image.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com