Cable-cutting tanker seized by Finland 'was loaded with spying equipment'
lloydslist.com
lloydslist.com
Am I having a stroke or is this article translated?
I'm not a Russia defender but this is comically inept if true. Why commit such brazen sabotage with a spy ship?
I do this on my own sailboat with a solar power source and battery setup.
Note that generators need to run at constant rpm to provide the correct ac frequency. Your car has gears so that it can run at lower rpm at low loads and so you won't see the same effect.
Yes it was a tanker. The bigger the ship doesn’t mean it has more people or more power generation like a cruise ship. A tanker has a crew of 4 plus captain, maybe?
It does lead to questions about how backup and failover power work on large ships. Secondary generation? Central batteries? Per device battery failover?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_Y2VNS5TFFY (this one with a hydraulic hand pump)
https://marineengineeringonline.com/emergency-generator-on-s...
Is it operating an RF jammer or laser? Those things suck power.
Perhaps it's a mistake in reporting, and the added equipment strained the local wiring/breakers of the bridge area it was installed into, causing "blackouts" that weren't ship-wide.
That part seemed odd to me too.
Spy folks aren't the ones conducting sabotage? If one division has installed apy equipment then surely they don't want that fact plastered all over documents, so perhaps the sabotage guys just saw a suitable ship in the harbor and presuaded/replaced the crew?
Doesn't look good either way though.
> They said no further equipment returned to the ship after it was offloaded for analysis, to their knowledge
Perhaps it wasn't brazen sabotage, but incompetent attempts to attach something to the lines?
Or conflicting agendas trickling down to the same ship, where the left-hand of "go cause some mayhem" didn't know what the right-hand of "collect signals intelligence" was already doing with that asset.
About year ago Balticconnector gas pipe was already damaged by a Chinese ship, which had been dragging the anchor for long time in a very suspicious manner:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balticconnector
And again in August several data cables were severed by a Chinese ship. According to one analysis, that time they may have dragged the anchor for 400 kilometers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB-vEp3wr-0
BTW, Russia seems to have for years spend time finding out the routes of sea cables and perhaps also spied them or prepared some kind of sabotage:
The global internet is powered by vast undersea cables. But they're vulnerable. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/25/asia/internet-undersea-ca...
Ukraine war: The Russian ships accused of North Sea sabotage https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65309687
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action...
The cable positions are public info, they don't need to spend time finding out where they are.
This theory, with glorious irony, supports the idea that the cable cut was accidental.
Russian fleet's second name is "comically inept".
Anyways, they just launched this very potent sub yesterday as well as several other hypersonic carrying boats this year (4 subs, 7 surface ships - all fake according to Reddit):
- https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/russian-navy-receives-fif...
And it's not like the ships are badly designed. The Kuznetsov sister ship that was a casino for a while and now is Chinese works perfectly well. The problem with Russian navy is lack of maintenance, total disregard of safety and procedures, 0 fucks given about human life, uneducated, drunken crews and widespread corruption.
I recommend reading about K-429 - a nuclear submarine that sunk not once but twice. First time because it was ordered to do exercises while the hull was in maintenance. Despite protests of the crew. Second time in dock during repairs after it got recovered. Worker negligence apparently.
Fun fact - it's not the only Russian nuclear submarine that participated in 2 disasters.
For one simple statistic - USA has about 2 times the number of nuclear submarines Russia has. Despite that Russia/USSR has lost 7 nuclear submarines and USA have lost 2. You cannot dismiss accident rate higher by order of magnitude as propaganda or bias.
Russian fleet is good enough to launch missiles at a country without fleet from long range. It's not good enough to do it without significant loses. It's also not good enough to do it while keeping the sea in question under control.
There's a reason Russian Black Sea fleet left Crimea and rebased to a port in occupied Georgia.
We can make excuses all day long, some are even true, but the hard cold facts remain - russian navy sucks.
Well, yes. If I can shoot you without your shooting me, that’d obviously better. Just because you have armor and defences doesn’t mean you want to always use them (or broadcast their capabilities and limitations).
Otherwise these ships served as missile lunchers, but even then they had to widraw to ports far away from Ukraine, because of drone attacks.
Ukraine won the naval battle at tiny fraction of the Russian navy cost.
"We are very lucky they're so fucking stupid" https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tdj65n/were_very_l...
In the year of our lord 2024 russians are assaulting using Mad Max modified Ladas and push bikes, its no longer a meme! USSR stocks of armor are finally running out.
27 Oct 2024 'THE ARMOR RAN OUT - THEY WENT IN PICK-UPS. They reach the trenches and the assault ends.' - Combat group K-2 54th brigade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uy2KpKj0t8
A Russian Assault Group Riding In Pickup Trucks And Flying The Soviet Flag Got ‘Special Attention’ From Ukrainian Forces https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/12/21/a-russian-a...
Kinzhal and Zircon have been at least semi-reliably shot down. Iskander is very reliablly shot down. The main issue is that Ukraine just doesn't have enough Patriot batteries to defend the whole country, so the Russians stopped shooting where the air defense is.
They also use a bunch of S-300s as ballistic missiles (a secondary capability to their primary role as air defense) but primarily against cities that don't have air defense. But they're too inaccurate and inexpensive for the Ukrainians to bother attempting to intercept even if they had enough of the appropriate air defenses.
Keep lying lol
It's just a PR stunt. Notice how troll farms tried to hype doomsday scenarios, and how little traction such fears got in the actual national security circles.
All the weapons actually fielded in large numbers are either directly from the Soviet era, or endless upgrades of upgrades of obsolete designs - like their T-90 tank, which still has a fatal flaw that sends turret flying when the tank gets hit. Russian weapons industry has for more than three decades consistently shown total inability to produce anything new. I'd start worrying as soon as Russia finally produced a decent car; that would be an indication that something has fundamentally changed.
The transmitting and receiving devices were used to record all radio frequencies, and upon reaching Russia were offloaded for analysis.
...
They said no further equipment returned to the ship after it was offloaded for analysis, to their knowledge, but other devices were placed on another related tanker, Swiftsea Rider.
What seems implied is that the ship was previously used for spying back in June, then the spy equipment was offloaded from the ship and it was later repurposed to cut the cables.
It’s a ship, that was used for spying. Not a special ship built for spying.
So it’s just an asset at sea that can be covertly used and disposed if discovered.
It’s a burner, something to use and discard when it’s no longer useful.
The spy gear is on another ship and the anchor trick can be played again
Given their vast and extensive advantages at the beginning of the invasion, if they were even vaguely competent they really would have been holding a parade in Kyiv within a few months.
A competent military wouldn’t have lost their flagship, or let Ukraine counter-invade taking thousands of square kilometres of Russian territory. A competent regime wouldn’t have dismissed US warnings of an imminent terrorist attack on a specific music venue in Moscow and just let it happen.
Loading up a tanker with power hungry kit it’s not able to properly support without discussing the idea with the crew, while threatening the crew if they don’t keep quiet, is par for the course.
There was 0 chance Ukraine was going to just flop over. Iraq and Afghanistan were humble villages by contrast - one which we lost to, and the other which our 'victory' amounted to bombing the government then hiding out in tiny little ultra fortified 'green zones' while waving a victory flag. In both cases with the wars dragged on for decades. Now imagine if Russia had decided to jump in one of those invasions and start shipping hundreds of billions of dollars of weapons to them, providing intelligence, and so on.
Russia obviously just thought they were ambushing Ukraine and could get some agreement for them to not join NATO without a real war. Then the West decided to get involved, similarly thinking they were ambushing Russia and that the first sight of HIMARS or a Panther tank would send the Russian army scattering.
Everybody was wrong, so we got a real war that nobody wanted.
They were looking to kill Zelensky and control the entire country.
In fact, they still are.
It was a war from the beginning.
That's a huge hindsight bias. Even the most optimistic scenarios from various secret services / think tanks predicted only weeks / few months of resistance at the most. If you read Ukrainian accounts, most weren't very optimistic either. You can also read up how many commanders in the south defected - having more such defectors could flip the war quite quickly. The question of whether to defect or not (or simply run) is something which many did on the spot based on their personal circumstances and outlook, it's extremely difficult to predict.
In fact there were even analysts outside Ukraine that did listen to Ukrainians and who also knew what was going on.
Here you can listen to Anders Puck Nielsen explain in jan 2022 what we all understand now, that it would be a large and terrible war: https://youtu.be/23JYPb_jHpg?si=6lMedJpEkeuPRuhv https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krhmeUkfhu4
In the past you needed large armies standing in a line, and tanks to crush that line. When armies made enough progress the remaining soldiers either surrender or ran away. Today you can have a handful people operating a drone to sink a warship, or fire a missile against a plane, or just planting random explosives and mines. They get killed and a new group pop up elsewhere doing the exact same thing. The only method to actually win by eliminating resistance becomes burning down every building and killing every person who used to live there, which obviously is immoral and hurts military moral, takes a lot of time, a lot of resources and people, and diplomatic resources. For a country like Ukraine or Russia it would take decades or centuries.
Then you must have not been paying attention.
A summary of those failed predictions: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-invasion-predictions-...
It's a roughly equal part of underestimating Ukrainians and overestimating Russians.
> Those that did make any prediction about the length of the war pointed towards modern wars like those in the middle east, which demonstrated that modern wars do not end suddenly regardless of what progress either side makes.
You mean like Crimea where the resistance never died down and was an active battlefield with daily activity of partisan groups? /s
After that claim was demonstrated to be clearly less than brilliant, the propaganda machine then began subtly (and then not so subtly) suggesting it was actually Russia that was making such claims.
But that was always plainly absurd. The last normal war Russia had was against Chechnya, another country that was tiny and practically unequipped relative to Ukraine, yet that war lasted a decade and had tens of thousands of deaths with a huge culture of great music [2] perpetually reminding people how brutal that war truly was.
You won't find a single source from a Russian political/military leader saying it'd be short, because they all knew it wouldn't be if there wasn't a quick agreement reached. The one quote people were able to find was from some television personality in some segment. But I hope Russia(ns) aren't citing e.g. Rachel Maddow to get insight into American positions on issues !
[1] - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mark-milley-ukraine-war-pre...
But what Russians expected can be inferred from what they did - their initial Kyiv offensive, Hostomel landing, it's a clear attempt at a decapitation strike. It's actually a carbon copy of the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia which fell without a fight which is apparently what Russians expected here as well.
But in this case I'd emphasize that even if that was successful they would have known it would be far from the end of the war. The 'nationalist units' and at least some regular forces would resist, the West would predictably back them endlessly (and probably bring in proxy forces) and the most likely scenario (absent a quick settlement) would be something like Afghanistan 2.0.
While a great talking point in Russian circles, nationalist units did not represent a significant chunk of Ukrainian forces in 2022. They played a role in the power vacuum of 2014, but not by 2022.
Regular forces were concentrated in the east. If Russia took Kyiv, they'd effectively cut off any supply routes from the West. The resistance would be futile. Remember again how forces in Crimea resisted forever?
> and probably bring in proxy forces
Could you expand on this? Where, who ... how?
> and the most likely scenario (absent a quick settlement) would be something like Afghanistan 2.0.
Most likely based on what? Where do all these fighters hide? Are the Ukrainian plains as good for hiding and launching covert attacks as Afghanistan caves?
Comically inept does sometimes seem to be the country's MO, due to corruption and miscommunication (the latter often deliberate to hide the former) between the various levels of control. People get away with it for quite some time, until a mistake/accident too big to successfully cover up occurs or there is other reason for an audit from above, at which point some are removed from their positions (often to particularly unpleasant penal arrangements, or perhaps being moved on via a defenestration "accident", as an example to others) and things improve for a while. This is often the case in other autocratic or anocratic countries too, but it seems particularly endemic in Russia (perhaps due to its wide geographic spread?).
> Why commit such brazen sabotage with a spy ship?
As others have said, other reasons of the article are that the ship has recently been used as a ship for spying, but equipment relating to that was not present at the time of the sabotage mission it was intercepted during.
It's obvious for a reason.
They want the world to know.
The obviousness isn't ineptness, it's a brazen display of power.
It naturally forms in the wider system through layers of control with people at each point doing the minimum required (well, the minimum they think that they can get away with) and creaming off any remaining resources.
The obviousness of reactions from the near top when enacted, against those that are too close to failures or deliberately act against the system, while often difficult to directly link to the top, yes, is very deliberate, and generally not ineptly executed.
In fact the individuals further down are often not really inept: they are can very good at doing what must be done with what little resource filters down while benefiting from what they can cream off, passing actual responsibility downwards, and keeping apparent responsibility for themselves (and their circles) when things go well. The comical ineptness is an emergent behaviour of the overall system that results from these behaviours.
This is in stark contrast to some other regimes, for instance the UK under BoJo the Clown and his next couple of replacements where the ineptitude was at times frighteningly and obviously present at and near the top, or over the longer term things like the post office scandal & cover-up which has dragged on for so long through an apparent endemic immorality rather than localised manipulation at each level.
It's a brazen display of what they themselves consider power and the rest of the world consider stupidity.
I mean it's the 1000+ day of the 3 day special military operation, we've seen Russians with ww2 era rifles and gear, ww2 era tanks, &c. Being inept is the only thing the Russian army seems to achieve consistently.
Ducktaping spy equipment onto barely operating merchant ships fits perfectly for this purpose. It is the peace time version of the merchant raider.
Give Ukraine a couple hundred longer-range missiles, let them attack the oil fields, powerplants, refineries etc. Seize the shadow fleet tankers. Sanction Russia for real.
It will be cheaper and safer than the alternative. If we did this 2 years ago this war would be over by now and hundreds of thousands of people wouldn't die for no reason.
Every month of delay makes the costs higher and larger-scale war more likely.
while it would make a lot of pain to Russia, it wouldn't change the strategic situation. Russia is ok with taking the pain (more precisely Putin and his ilk are ok with subjecting Russia to the pain)
You need strategic hits, a knock-out, making it physically impossible for them to continue as it is the only language they currently understand. So, for example, Russia has like 10K of S-300/400 missiles. That is key part of the strategic defense of Russia (notice how Russia recently had a hysteric meltdown when just one drone hit their strategic defense radar thus slightly impacting their defense against ICBMs/etc. and also notice that just a drone was able to hit such a valuable target) Ukraine can build several thousands of large drones (cheap, simple, like say German V-1, can be built for less than $5000 each including modern navigation, Germans built 20K of V-1 in year in just one factory inside the mountain) and fire them to the targets in Russia choosing routes, altitudes and targets such that Russia would have to use S-300/400 instead of say shorter range BUK/Tor/Pantsir (Russia is big and most of the coverage is naturally by the S-300/400). After several thousands of such drones Russia would be put into impossible situation - either to let those large drones (original V-1 had 850kg warhead, ie. double that of Tomahawk/Storm Shadow/SCALP) fly and hit the targets or to run out of strategic air defense.
Can Russia really not build counter-drones with the same capabilities?
Or is your suggestion more of "do something along these lines, choosing specifically something Russia cannot currently defend against and complete this attack before Russia even knows it needs to build the factory to make the counter drones to defend against it"?
If you look at the map you'll see a strategic problem of Russia waiting to be exploited (and no plausibly possible factory building would help to prevent it) - when moving from the Ukraine/Russia border the Russian territory becomes more and more vast, and there is no good way to defend it from mass cheap attacks.
yes. Before cheap modern electronics, the costs of attacking vs. defending missiles didn't have such orders of magnitude difference. Drones, ie. cheap electronics, changed the game.
>It can't just be defended against by pairing (or even 10-to-1-swarming) identical V1-class drones from Russia to be used as interceptors?
To intercept you still need to be faster (transsonic and especially supersonic doesn't come cheap/simple), to have radars, a large one on the ground for detection, and seeker on the interceptor (that is cost and complexity) or to guide interceptors using the ground radar (that would mean much less simultaneously attacked targets by your interceptors, less distance and other issues like with intercepting low-flying targets, etc.)
Eh, why? Most of them escaped russia because they didn't liked Putin. I know a few such Russians in Poland (with Polish citizenship too).
https://vm.ee/en/news/government-restricts-entry-estonia-rus...
https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/2050380/latvia-to-a....
https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/2050524/lithuania-d...
As you can see it can be done, is being done, and ought to be done across the whole of EU given the number of unexplained fires and explosions of factories, warehouses, and shopping centres in Europe, explosives planted in packages sent via DHL, an attempt to assassinate the CEO of Rheinmetal, cutting undersea cables, and disruption of GPS signal used by civil aviation.
I think the main worry is that Putin will start using tactical nukes, they already changed their policy about that.
Also - tactical nukes won't significantly change anything on the battlefield. There are no big concentrations of troops in this war. It's 20 guys storming a village defended by 100 guys repeat 100 times in a month. If you want to nuke 100 guys to get that village - sure, it could work. Will be hard to establish a base there, but you can kill these 100 guys. But then 3 km further there are other guys. You'll nuke them too?
its not about Ukrainian battlefield, its more if western missiles will be destroying Russian infra, Putin will strike objects/bases/infra in Eastern Europe, he was very clear about it during initial invasion message.
It's all bullshit. Out of all the things Putin won't do - nuking NATO is the first.
There is line after which Putin will launch nukes, destruction of major foundational infra totally could be it:
1. Putin will want to suppress Nato from further steps.
2. Population will likely demand this as an act of revenge.
3. There will be some self defense justification.
It won't be massive attack, first nuke to be launched on Ukrainian infra, and second on some EU military base, after which NATO will stop and suck it up(likely after first nuke) if Trump won't decide to escalate which is very unlikely.
Neither would be one on Ukraine.
And both sides know, that this has a high chance of escalating further.
If a tactical nuke on Ukraine - then likely a massive military response and even china would distance themself.
A tactical nuke on NATO would likely have the automated chain reaction of all out war.
like what?
> even china would distance themself.
China will likely support this, to legalize their own similar potential actions
> A tactical nuke on NATO would likely have the automated chain reaction of all out war.
how do you see this? Trump likely will decide to not engage, and EU is weak disorganized, and don't have teeth for major escalation against Russia's nukes.
Not at all, because chinas legal angle with Taiwan is the opposite - the holy territorial integrity. Which is why they critiziced russia for invading officially and don't give really support. The support they do give, is still doing lucrative buisness with russia. That is in their own interest and they like NATO attention split. But the legal situation they don't like as russia is clearly violating territorial integrity - which is their argument for annexing Taiwan.
And Trump is an old man and most of the nuclear response is pretty hardcoded into the military institutions. Meaning, so many people will tell Trump he will be seen as weak if he does not react, that he will push the red buttons.
we are discussing hypothetical situation of Russia nuking military bases if western missiles produce large damage on Russian core infra. China will likely also want to nuke bases in Japan, S.Korea and Philippines as act of self defense, regardless if Taiwan will be the reason or something else.
> And Trump is an old man and most of the nuclear response is pretty hardcoded into the military institutions. Meaning, so many people will tell Trump he will be seen as weak if he does not react, that he will push the red buttons.
I don't believe this. He and his appointments likely will say Russia is Europe's problems, lets better build wall on Mexico's border instead of mutually annihilate each other.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/02/us-russia-puti...
The US and its allies would destroy Russia’s troops and equipment in Ukraine – as well as sink its Black Sea fleet – if the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, uses nuclear weapons in the country, former CIA director and retired four-star army general David Petraeus warned on Sunday.
Petraeus said that he had not spoken to national security adviser Jake Sullivan on the likely US response to nuclear escalation from Russia, which administration officials have said has been repeatedly communicated to Moscow.
He told ABC News: “Just to give you a hypothetical, we would respond by leading a Nato – a collective – effort that would take out every Russian conventional force that we can see and identify on the battlefield in Ukraine and also in Crimea and every ship in the Black Sea.”
Also, in this situation directly targeting Russian troops and ships will trigger even more tactical nuke on Eastern European targets.
And Russia will be nuking shit left and right each time in response? What do you think this will achieve?
China will invade them at that point :) After their conventional army is destroyed in Ukraine and they are tossing nukes around - why not?
If your only card is "I'll commit extended suicide" - you're done.
as I said second tactical nuke will be on NATO military base/infra in EU.
> And Russia will be nuking shit left and right each time in response? What do you think this will achieve?
this will achieve EU NATO countries to stop engage in proxy/direct wars with Russia, because damage will be very asymmetrical.
> China will invade them at that point :)
China won't invade Russia, because Asian part of Russia is not that attractive, and because Russia has many strategic nukes to defer China.
You can't sell a first strike nuclear attack to the rest of the world as "justified".
And a tactical nuke won't change anything significantly military or economically-wise. It would be a political statement (and a completely braindead one).
So, in short - it won't happen.
they cannot destroy Russia because Russia will hit by even more nukes
> You can't sell a first strike nuclear attack to the rest of the world as "justified".
They sold invasion to Ukraine to the world to some extend, they still are in UN security council, plenty of countries trading with them. If they mass hit by western missiles, it will be even easier to sell.
> And a tactical nuke won't change anything significantly military or economically-wise.
it will make NATO countries to reconsider their actions.
Finland has always been very conservative in such matters, and you can be sure that they thought long and hard about what their public legal position will be before they boarded the ship.
The Russians will be conservative here too, because obviously the existing body of law has worked in their favor, giving them space to operate a "black fleet" - and to use it to execute sabotage. Or so they thought...
You have misread. At least here in Q2 (https://yle.fi/a/74-20133775) Yle writes that first the ship was asked to move to Finnish territorial waters, and only then it was boarded.
Hmm, they "got it to turn". Ahem I wonder what THAT means, and I wonder if there are recordings of the communications.
Russia violated Turkey’s airspace only once, the jet was shot down immediately, and, save to say, Putin was on the phone with Ankara to prevent an all out escalation with a NATO member that can trigger article 5 at any time for self defense after an apparent aggression. Turned out, no more airspace violations happened again.
As long as the West fails to respond with strength, Putin will never stop.
The only good way would be to close the path.
Finland can only take action if backed by many other NATO members, and most especially by the US.
Dealing with this as a policing activity tells you all you need to know about the current leadership of the US and other NATO countries.
And could easily donate more equipment to Ukraine.
Even if stockpiles runs low, Finland could finance equipment for Ukraine.
Both of these options would hurt Russia more, and probably cost less than direct intervention.
By the same forces that later tried to overthrow democratically elected president of Turkey.
Probably too extreme for maritime law. OTOH a tighter inspection regime might fly. There is a precedent in ports of call that enforce their own inspection regimes.
Profile and optionally board boats entering the Skagerrak. Registry? Condition? Incident history? Hazards of declared cargo? Too many suspicious antennas?
A cut cable is expensive to repair.
More toys donated to Ukraine won't just cost Russia money.
Unless the cable cutting is actually a real threat, we should suck it up, repair and donate to Ukraine.
(If an actual shooting war broke out in Europe, it's hard to tell of those cables would last long anyways)
I was on the same page as you for a long time, but aggressively defending your airspace also increases risk of collateral damage, leading to, for example, your military shooting down Azeri passenger jets. Or Malaysian ones. Or Iranian ones (to name one not committed by Russia).
Its not very sneaky, they got caught rather easily.
The damage is annoying, but deep sea cables have problems from time to time, its not like it created critical downtime or is unrepairable damage.
Is this just russia trying to give some sort of warning? A sort of, you have lots of exposed infrastructure, if you keep calling my bluff i might start going after it for real-zies?
If they could kill a top european politician, they would have done it already. What protects against that is NATO firepower.
The data cables are gonna be fixed in weeks. Yi Peng 3 got detained for over a month for creating a 10-day downtime on two submarine data cables.
EDIT: Hamuko basically said the same thing earlier, did not notice
I wasn't aware Russia was at open war with NATO, but perhaps their desperation has grown to the point where they are at open war with NATO now.
Getting caught is not a huge risk in the sense that Russians will still deny it, while at the same time it will raise the stakes in the public eye.
It's the same thing as with the continuous (but still deniable) nuclear sabre rattling.
- apparently china owns some cables in baltic sea, see the CITIC company
- one of their cables was also cut during recent eventsRight now, Russia doesn't have all that much military capability near St. Petersburg.[2] Some units are off at the Ukraine war. The Baltic Fleet is weaker than ever.
There's a "Free Ingria" movement that wants to make all of Leningrad Oblast a separate country. It's not going anywhere without outside support. It might get some.
[1] https://apnews.com/article/finland-estonia-cable-undersea-ru...
Closer to 90km. If it was 20, all ships to/from St Petersburg would have to pass through Estonian/Finnish territorial waters and we wouldn’t have questions around jurisdiction.
In terms of potential hybrid warfare targets, Kaliningrad looks soft. Many of the residents have little loyalty to Russia. A partial blockade combined with some sabotage and support of separatist organizations could accomplish a lot.
It's a narrow corridor to patrol. Small boats watching large ships can tell if an anchor is run out. An ordinary fish-finder sonar should be able to tell if a ship is dragging something. Finland has many small coast guard vessels, and a long history of pushing back against border incursions from Russia.
The most recent incursion was [1]. "Since the beginning of August 2023, more than 1,300 third-country nationals have arrived in Finland from Russia without a visa. According to the authorities, it was clear that foreign authorities or other actors were facilitating instrumentalised migration. This phenomenon and the risk of its escalation posed a serious threat to national security and public order in Finland." Migrants who escaped Afghanistan, etc. and ended up in Russia are apparently being given a hard choice - join the army and fight in Ukraine, or leave Russia.
So Finland closed the land border with Russia completely. Russia objected. Finland did not give in. Finland started building a border fence on the Russian border, with surveillance gear, back in 2023.[2]
[1] https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/situation-at-finlands-eastern-b...
[2] https://www.globalconstructionreview.com/finland-starts-erec...
The only question is who will they invade first, and will they have capacity to do so?
On the other hand, our reactions to crossing red lines are also nonexistent
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_lines_in_the_Russo-Ukrai...
~ https://www.9news.com.au/world/new-book-reveals-candid-behin...
Hopefully they are exaggerating for effect. A strategy of actively probing for Russia's breaking point is ruinously stupid; when you find it the odds are pretty good that it will be because they are at the point where they are willing to go nuclear. They might try some sort of escalate-to-de-escalate strike on NATO but there must be a pretty decent chance that would just escalate and the Russian command would be aware of that.
Not lobbing missiles in to Russia is an entirely reasonable red line. We got all the way through the Afghan war and the Iraq war without anyone launching missiles into the US and that restraint didn't seem to cause any long term problems. Extending similar courtesies to Russia is appropriate.
The outcome of literally every single scenario was essentially the end of the world with billions dead and the Northern Hemisphere rendered largely inhospitable. This wargame was carried out in 1983. Its conclusion lead the US military and leadership to change course from the previous pattern of escalation as a means of victory, to de-escalation and collaboration. By 1991 the Soviet Union would collapse with their leaders holding hands with American leaders.
They've apparently changed the lyrics now. The opening lines are changed to "Now listen to my heart / It says Ukrainia, waiting for the wind to change." Meine stated, "It's not the time with this terrible war in Ukraine raging on, it's not the time to romanticize Russia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_of_Change_(Scorpions_song...
This is easier said than done, of course, but limiting yourself to the dichotomy guarantees one or other outcome.
And the main thing they wanted is what they've said all along - Ukraine agreeing not to join NATO or host foreign military bases. Everything else was negotiable - they were even willing to compromise on the exact status of Crimea! Then we got good ole Boris Johnson telling Zelensky to 'just fight'. One brilliant leader offering wisdom to another, with the outcome anybody could expect when such minds come together.
Notably Putin has also somewhat uncharacteristically shared the details of conversations he was having with Biden shortly prior to the war. And it was again all about Ukraine's NATO status. Biden refused to budge beyond agreeing to delay Ukraine's entry by 10-15 years (which was probably a defacto sort of 'we'll wait until you die' offer). Russian began amassing forces relatively shortly after that conversation.
Come to think of it, this isn't even much of a hypothetical as this is essentially exactly what the Cuban Missile Crisis [1] was about, but the US was freaking out about weapons that were not even on a shared border, merely 'too close', bringing the world to the brink of nuclear war over it.
You can imagine all you want, but that's not what happened in regard to Ukraine.
What did happen is that Ukraine formally renounced its NATO aspirations in 2010, but Putin invaded anyway in 2014.
In 2019 Ukraine added joining NATO as a goal to their constitution, and the US was obviously rapidly moving in that direction with them. It was widely predicted that doing this would lead to war, and well here we are!
[1] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-a...
I have three questions for you:
(1) Can you name one of the regions Putin is attempting to annex, aside from Crimea, that was "heavily ethnic Russian?"
(2) Can you explain the circumstances which caused that particular region to have a majority Russian-identified population? (In just a sentence or two, please).
(3) Something else happened in 2014, in between the two events that you claim happened. Why is this missing from your chronology?
(2) Coal + industrialization + peasants seeking a better life.
(3) Actually quite a lot happened, but I assume you're referencing the fact that a small number of Russian forces were deployed to Crimea. A practical issue when territory "peacefully" changes hands is deterring the former "owners" from simply coming in and trying to kill everybody to immediately reclaim it. The important issue is whether those forces drove coercion or otherwise manipulated the outcome of the referendum in a way outside the will of the people. This is what the West tried to prove, but they instead ended up proving the exact opposite! Incidentally, a comparable referendum held in Donbas was likely outside the will of the people, and consequently - Russia did not recognize it.
(2) Coal + industrialization + peasants seeking a better life.
The question referred to the Crimea, not the Donbas.
If you wish, you can answer the question: "Can you explain the circumstances which caused the Crimea have a majority Russian-identified population?"
I'd be genuinely curious as to your response.
Crimea is far easier on #2. Crimea has never been majority (or plurality) Ukrainian. Prior to the Russians it was Tatars, but they were exiled after WW2 by Stalin for collaboration with the Nazis. The reason Crimea ended up under Ukrainian control is because in 1954 Khrushchev 'gifted' it to Ukraine to celebrate the 300th anniversary of the Pereiaslav Agreement. That agreement is when the Cossacks that lived in 'the ukraine' (Ukraine translates to something like at the borderlands/frontier) signed a treaty swearing allegiance to Russia. At the time of the gift it was mostly just a token gesture, because Ukraine was just another normal part of the USSR and so basically nothing changed.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Demographics_of_U...
[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Demographics_of_U...
Wrong. The Ukrainian parliament voted 328-vs-0 to hold early elections after the sitting president got over hundred protesters killed and ran away from the country fearing criminal prosecution.
> leading numerous regions that are heavily ethnic Russian, including Crimea, to declare their independence.
Wrong again. The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that it was an operation by Russian military and security services. They could not find any evidence of an actual separatist movement.
> In 2019 Ukraine added joining NATO as a goal to their constitution
... which is 5 years after Russia invaded Ukraine.
> the US was obviously rapidly moving in that direction with them
Again, obviously wrong. Three years later, by the time Russia launched the full-scale invasion, Ukraine was still nowhere near joining the NATO. We saw rapid timeline with Sweden and Finland. Informal negotiations started early 2022, formal invitation issued June 2022, all ratifications complete by national parliaments by April 2023 (Finland) and March 2024 (Sweden). To this day, Ukraine has not even been invited to start talks. The process hasn't even begun yet.
---
What's the point of posting obvious lies and excuses? These are not even valid arguments, but clear factually incorrect statements.
And yes, this whole bullshit about "they're not a real nation" etc was very much a thing in Russia before 2022, and before 2014 even. I should know; I grew up there. I remember reading "Эпоха мертворожденных" in 2008, and that's pretty much what Russia actually did in 2014 (except of course the whole "NATO occupation" of the non-separatist parts turned out to be imaginary). But I remember hearing similar sentiments in the 90s as a kid, as well. And since Ukrainians are well within the Russian cultural orbit, they were aware of those trends, too - and took appropriate precautions. This notion that invasion wouldn't have happened if they didn't seek NATO membership is wrong.
Reading Plato and other great philosophers is interesting (The Republic in particular is an amazing read) because they can often sound like prophets - predicting the future with such extreme accuracy at a time that ostensibly had basically nothing in common with ours. But I think their 'secret' is simply that they were great objective observers of the behavior of humanity. Because history is not especially creative, it keeps repeating itself endlessly, because humanity doesn't change except as a product of technology changing.
And this reality of the world remains true to this day. It's just that the means change. Alexander the Great wisely stabilized his massive empire largely by letting areas under his control maintain an exceptional degree of sovereignty, minimizing overt resistance to his control. The US took this to the next step by not even directly claiming nations, but instead simply remotely controlling the governments of these nations, and simply overthrowing/replacing them when they became uncontrollable - and repeating the process. Made even easier with democracy, which has a paradoxical tendency to elevate unpopular people on the take, rather than popular ideologues, to power.
Whenever there's any need - we can easily compel the various defacto vassal states under our control to act, even when directly against their own self interest. See: Germany for the most overt illustration of this. Extracting wealth from vassals became somewhat less relevant with the introduction of fiat currency. So long as we force the world to use our money, we can simply print money as needed, export the inflation to other countries, and it effectively functions as real growth - at least until the whole system inevitably collapses in on itself in a debt filled void.
That wasn't what Putin said in his December 2021 ultimatum.
But more generally when skilled leaders want "X" they generally instead say they want "X, Y and Z." The goal is so that you can then 'compromise' by withdrawing your desire for Y and Z. And in the best case, you may even get at least some of Y and Z.
If Russia attacks another country or group of countries, it's another situation and another story.
I understand the threat, and that we shouldn't let us be walked over. But we should also not think that we can do anything without things escalating.
With that logic we should let them takeover the entire Europe, continuing their genocide until the Holocaust seemed like a small-scale event. Then you can give yourself a pat on the back for a job well done.
Do you have an actual source for that extraordinary claim?
> Imperialism is the maintaining and extending of power over foreign nations, particularly through expansionism, employing both hard power (military and economic power) and soft power (diplomatic power and cultural imperialism). Imperialism focuses on establishing or maintaining hegemony and a more or less formal empire.
Russia fits the bill very well.
> Clearly, it fell to our lot to return and reinforce as well. And if we operate on the premise that these basic values constitute the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in achieving our goals.
Returning and reinforcing means restoring the USSR or Russian Empire's territory to Russia.
Or perhaps you're confusing "clear" with "explicit": Consider a mob-boss surrounded by associates, casually observing into the air that "Example Ezio needs a fitting for concrete overshoes since I expect he'll be sleeping with the fishes."
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/estonia-says-russia-rem...
> Is Russia invading Poland and the Baltic states?
What goalpost-moving nonsense is this!? Why narrow it to those other areas while pretending the ongoing invasion of Ukraine doesn't exist, or forgetting the 2008 invasion of Georgia?
Must Russia attempt to attack or puppet every discrete former-USSR holding including Takijistan before you'll finally admit that Putin has revanchist dreams?
https://www.thesun.ie/news/8513264/russian-state-tv-discusse...
Putin’s plan for a new Russian Empire includes both Ukraine and Belarus https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-pl...
Such extremely hostile rhetoric is Russian mainstream.
Russian Media Monitor channel on Youtube maintains a collection of that speech. One of the most recent examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hULOZDqxv1Q In this clip from a prime-time TV show, propagandists keep repeating how they need to nuclear blackmail Trump into handing Europe over to Russia, with "Russian troops in Berlin, Paris and Lisbon" (02:12). Russian outlets hammer garbage like this into their population every single day, such rhetoric is everywhere. And words certainly lead to actions: when Russian POWs captured in Ukraine are asked what the hell they are doing in Ukraine, they can't come up with anything and fall back to repeating the same things word for word as if the were robots.
(Soviet union included more states, like the stans)
All their warfare that's effective is the methods used to produce Brexit and elect Donald Trump. That's been way more effective than WWII munitions, and if they were satisfied with that, the world would be 'the Zone' for our lifetimes. But those who control Russia are old, and want land, territory. They've already spoken of wanting Alaska, and once you concede Crimea and Ukraine as 'really first', they'll be wanting to surprise everybody by taking the United States.
This is not realistic. They've got the power to destabilize to a shocking extent, but only while unobserved. To actually take territory, formally, from the United States would change a lot, and yet that's their dream.
By contrast, they're not fighting Finland first: not because Finland is that much tougher than the US, but because Finland knows them and is prepared.
McCain on Putin in 2014. They want Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, and Moldova and the Baltics if they can get away with it. He is rebuilding the Russian Empire.
Seems like they can't play this game for long.
Tanker Eagle S Seized by Finland for Severing Cables Between Finland & Estonia | Is it a Spy Ship? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy27qiKVCSI
Europe clings to the hope that the rules-based international order that—at this point—everyone is abandoning, can be resuscitated through hopes and prayers. It can’t. We’re back to realpolitik.
Russian boats should be subject to boarding and searching when passing by Finnish and adjacent waters; for precedent, they can cite China claiming its sovereign waters include vastly adjacent waters to its own.
Russia flirted with Turkish airspace in 2015; Ankara shot it down [1]. Zero further provocations. You can’t appease a bully by lying prostrate. Even if the bully has big guns at home. We aren’t risking nuclear war by drawing clear lines, we’re inviting it by clumsily blurring them.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_sh...
FWIW this perspective is currently known pejoratively, as "liberalism". As in "conservatives and liberals", not as in "liberty" or "liberal world order" - political labels are weird. Examples of this kind of party are the SPD (Germany), Labour (New Zealand) and the Democrats (USA).
Currently, left wing people are trying to make a big deal out of how liberals are (a) not actually left wing, but centrist at best, (b) generally incompetent (which is still preferable to the alternative most people have, mind you) and (c) enable fascism to take over, by attempting to follow the rules all the time, without updating the rules when fascists learn how to exploit them. (Hitler was given power according to the normal process, even though it should have already been obvious to everyone involved that it was a bad idea, because the most important thing is to follow the process, no matter where it leads)
Hitler’s rise was not a product of strict adherence to democratic norms. The Weimar authorities repeatedly broke with "normal process" including banning him from public speaking, suppressing Nazi media, outlawing the SA, relying on emergency decrees, and bypassing parliamentary governance. These anti-democratic measures not only failed to stop Hitler but eroded trust in democracy itself, creating the conditions for his eventual ascent.
Moreover, the KPD (the German Communist Party) played a significant role in destabilizing the Republic. They engaged in widespread political violence, targeting both Nazis and moderate leftists. They fractured anti-Nazi opposition by labelling the SPD as "social fascists" unworthy of cooperating with. The Nazi's Sturmabteilung was hardened primarily in response to KPD attacks through the Rotfrontkämpferbund (attacks that the authorities refused to prevent).
The left's infighting, combined with its own undemocratic tactics, significantly weakened any systemic resistance to fascism and helped paved the road Hitler later marched down.
No, the core of the beef between leftists and liberals is over "liberty," or something that a liberal would call liberty and a leftist would not. Namely, property rights over financial assets. Liberals see these as a kind of liberty: "you own a farm, property rights over the farm connect the labor you do in upkeep and planting to the rewards you reap at harvest." Leftists argue that this might be a nice but temporary side effect and that the core purpose of financial assets is to ensure that rich people get paid for being rich in proportion to how rich they are, thereby establishing, reinforcing, and perpetuating a class hierarchy where the people on the bottom must constantly pay to exist while the people on top constantly get paid to exist. They would tell a different story: "Bill Gates owns the farmland, you do all the work, you pay him everything he asks for, and if it's not enough he replaces you." In turn, the liberal would contend that market competition keeps this in check and the leftist would contend that ever concentrating capital interests ensure robust competition on the bottom and absent competition on the top, slowly crushing any market competition favorable to the farmer. At this point, if it hasn't happened already, the liberal will start lobbing horrific tales of leftists abusing farmers and the leftist will start lobbing horrific tales of property rights being used to abuse farmers and the conversation descends into "whose atrocities are bigger / worse / more relevant" discourse.
If you haven't seen this kind of infighting, it's not because the philosophical rift doesn't exist, it's because actual leftism has been outside the Overton window of popular discourse in the United States for the last 50-70 years. McCarthy's Red Scare was the first push, dissolution of the New Deal Coalition was the last. Class Warfare rhetoric was frowned upon by the liberal + conservative majority and kept out of polite company. Now that populism is back in fashion, leftists have been looking to change that, but they have been having less success than the populist right. Watch this space, though.
As with the last time he was elected Trump has vehemently criticised a policy of his predecessor, and then immediately adopted the same policy as his own on being elected.
He did it over bombing Syria if they used chemical weapons, and he’s doing it over Ukraine now, making it clear he intends to continue fully supporting them, while also pushing for a huge increase in military spending. Both policies he and his party were adamantly against and did everything they could to undermine while in opposition.
The uncharitable scenario is that he's waiting for the RU bribe money to land before delivering -- and no one deserves charity less than this man. Remember when he stopped the Javelin shipments to Ukraine until such time as Zelensky could deliver dirt (real or manufactured) on Biden? This could be exactly like that, though at this time he presumably wants money not dirt.
How that wasn’t blindingly obvious from the start is a question, but not one he or his supporters actually care about because they couldn’t give a fig about Ukraine. It is entirely instrumental to his personal political advantage in the moment. Being utterly opposed to support for Ukraine was politically advantageous in opposition and supporting Ukraine to the hilt is now politically advantageous in power. That’s all that matters.
Chemical weapons in Syria are an informative parallel. Obama’s commitment to bombing Syria if they used chemical weapons was the worst policy ever from opposition, but actually bombing Syria for using Chemical weapons when they did so as soon as Trump gained power was an obvious necessity.
You’re vastly overestimating the strategic capacity or care of the American voter. Game theory doesn’t fit in a TikTok video.
Mostly because Assad did use chemical weapons and Obama didn't bomb them. Arguably the fact that Obama backed down set the tone for the invasion of Crimea and the Donbas.
Until they were in power of course, and Assad mistakenly assumed the Republican position on this was coherent and actually used chemical weapons again.
Obama certainly didn't bother with as much when offing Al-Awlaki [1]. (An American who took up arms against the United States.)
This was Obama's fuck-up. He was the chief executive and commander in chief. If he couldn't hold the line, he shouldn't have drawn it.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awla...
His supporters absolutely would give a fig about Ukraine if Trump hadn't spent years sabotaging the GOP's historical positions on hostile authoritarians.
Given what we've seen in Ukraine, I agree that Eastern European countries can likely take on Russia in conventional warfare. But that's not the only thing on the table.
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2012/0...
That's funny. It died when the US invaded Iraq in 2003 and the EU continued business as usual.
A lot of us in the US don't subscribe to the idea of "either you're with us or against us". I don't expect every single country in the world to drop everything they are doing and rush to help us invade whatever country we want to invade. I think it is ridiculous to say the EU is not with us because they don't blindly follow us everywhere.
In hindsight, it was a bad idea to invade Iraq anyway.
The EU paid its "protection tax" by implicitly or explicitly endorsing any US actions. It's what always gave legitimacy to any US military action, what gave them the sheen of righteousness. The EU didn't "just watch", they did what they were expected to do.
Going forward, if Trump's anti-NATO agenda materializes, the US will have to find a different source of legitimacy for their actions or be painted as just an aggressor on the world stage.
Probably not, but that’s a separate—if fruitful—discussion. (Better candidates: NATO bombing Yugoslavia.)
What’s not debatable is that it has changed. Given how lightfootedly Europe is playing its hand, it’s surprising it’s taken this long to get Putin at their throats, Trump at their wallets and Xi gutting their industry.
Nobody joins a defensive alliance because it's cute. To the extent a cogent geopolitical message has been delivered, between Bush and Biden, it's that the international order has two castes: nuclear-armed states and everyone else.
The UK did a similar amount to the US per capita in Iraq, even though we had less to gain and, frankly, it has punched above it's weight in practically every war going since well before the US even existed. Including Ukraine for example, where we were the first to arm them in advance of the invasion.
This comes across as american ignorance, I'm sorry to say.
Appeasement is what Europe does when an aggressor comes knocking.
“Appeasement” is such a fake lesson from WW2. Chamberlain’s mistake was not negotiating with Hitler. His mistake was that he let wishful thinking cloud his vision.
Churchill just did much better in understanding his enemy. In this particular case, with an enemy whose goal was the eradication of whole parts of the world population, the result was that negotiating made no sense. But to say this is the lesson from Munich and to apply this as a cookie cutter template to any dictator is barking mad. Even more so in the age of nuclear weapons.
Zero further provocations doesn't seem right [1] [2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Russian_Air_Force_Al-Bab_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Balyun_airstrikes
It's a lovely theory but in practice you have to have a rule that says we can board any ship we feel like and that's super problematic.
Beijing has no interest in this. If anything, it has an interest in becoming one of Russia’s sole buyers.
> you have to have a rule that says we can board any ship we feel like and that's super problematic
Why? China is literally doing this right now outside its territorial waters. It’s fine. America would too, if foreign trawlers started cutting its lines. Again, if one person is playing by restrictions everyone else has already abandoned, it’s not difficult to conclude who’s the sucker at the table.
Classic American view point. Win at all costs, ignore the rules yourself but use another countries lack of adherence as an excuse to invade/bomb them.
You really think this is how we get a peaceful and civilised world order? You think this builds trust? Moral leadership? Long term reputation? Relationships?
Ridiculous. Sorry to be controversial but breaking international law should be avoided at almost any cost.
I guess one man's "sucker at the table" is another man's "gentleman who plays by the rules, and can be trusted"
No, if your point is reasonable, it still doesn’t apply when dealing with a psychopath. Who TF cares about moral superiority in the face of an existential threat?
If moral superiority is so important, let Putin lead with it.
My entire point is this is already the status quo. Nobody—other than Europe—is following the post-WWII rules anymore. There is a new set of conventions being de facto agreed to, and they will be set by the players actually at the table.
> Beijing has no interest in this.
The first cable and gas pipe sabotages using the anchor dragging method in the Baltic Sea in 2023 and 2024 were done by Chinese ships:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newnew_Polar_Bear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Peng_3
So obviously Beijing in already into this on the Russian side.
There is no way out of the Baltic Sea without crossing the territorial sea of either Sweden or Denmark. Countries have full jurisdiction in those, cutting cables on purpose is at least a criminal act, if not terrorism. There's no problem handling this, even if you're fully playing by the books.
Russia would then need to switch to ships running only to Kaliningrad, which makes it even more obvious that it's an act of war.
I just don't agree this is something worth breaking international law over.
Just like pacifism, abiding by the international law in this case will only serve to embolden the totalitarian regimes, which neither desire peace, nor obey the law.
They broke the law last time therefore it's fine for us to.
Words aren't as meaningless as you claim even at wartime.
I'm simply pointing out that words do not matter as much, willingness to do something, to respond, to defend yourself, that's what matters. I'm not ignoring the value of laws, and rules, and regulations, but they clearly are not an ironclad defense. Just like Article 5 isn't.
Plot every declaration of war since WWII. Now plot every military conflict. Nobody declares war by declaring war, we declare war by bombing.
US has Guantanamo and they don’t call them prisoners of wars (PoW). Russia has special military operations. Australia doesn’t keep their illegal immigrants in detention centers but in “administrative residences”.
So declarations of war are very much not outdated, insofar as everyone _avoids_ those terms.
One, sure, declarations of war aren’t academically outdated. By that measure neither are colonialism or chattel slavery, which are also avoided in modern speechwriting.
Two, we absolutely say we’re going to war with each other. We just don’t formally declare it. Declarations of war are obsolete, I’d be hard pressed to find anyone serious in government or international relations who claims otherwise.
UNCLOS is being ignored by China. The Geneva Conventions have been ignored by every current, former and emerging superpower, as well as several regional powers--again, without consequence. Nobody declares war. And Putin has been amending his nuclear doctrine by the hour, often with false starts.
Would I prefer these were law? Absolutely. Must I blind myself to the fact that they aren't? No.
Just because some states are violating it doesn't mean that we should throw the entire thing overboard entirely.
Sure. It's still, ultimately, a unilateraly rewriting of the terms. Something states can do in international law that individuals can't in a nation with the rule of law.
> because some states are violating it doesn't mean that we should throw the entire thing overboard entirely
Nobody is suggesting that. My point is we should be more open to such rewritings given they're commonly taking place. It doesn't make sense for Europe to treat UNCLOS as binding law when Russia, China and hell America treat is as nice-to-have guidelines.
International agreements were treated as law in the post-WWII era. That era ended some time after the fall of the Soviet Union. Slowly. Then suddenly.
They're now closer to LOIs. Some countries are realising this quickly. Others more slowly.
You have freedom but if you do a crime your right to freedom is void. Now you have right to get punished.
Straw men. The point is both have happened.
Unilaterally claiming more territorial waters and boarding ships is cool and all. Having a Russian Navy destroyer follow one of these ships and greet the boarding party would also be kinda cool.
I don't think it's as clear cut. Transit passage through straits is governed by special provisions in the UNCLOS; with a few exceptions, states can't just board vessels.
What could further complicate matters here is if infrastructure of states A and B is damaged, but a vessel leaves the sea through a strait bordering states C and D.
That's obviously only the theory, and it's unfortunately not like there is broad international consensus on matters of territoriality at sea at this point.
https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unc...
NATO members can and should find some other pretext to stop, board, and search some of those Russian vessels. But if Russia doesn't back down and sends them with Navy escorts what then? It's worth thinking through the various escalation scenarios before acting.
The whole point of doing it with a tanker was deniability. Doing it with a Russian-flagged ship makes it overt. The anti-escalation logic applies in both direction: Russia wants to sabotage as much as possible without triggering a huge escalation, because they're not sure they can win that either (and nobody could win a nuclear exchange!)
That's not to say that nothing can be done, but that it's important to do the right thing, or we risk eroding the few hard-won rules we still have.
By attack undersea cables the ship are no longer exercising the right of innocent passage, and thus is not protected under the law of the sea.
The ship that was boarded, is registered in the Cook Islands (an associated state of New Zealand), owned and operated by a company in United Arab Emirates. And the ship's crew were Georgian and Indian.
Background: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_the_Cook...
It looks like the Cook Islands are heavily dependent on financial support from NZ government, and NZ tourists.
China retains the right to board any ship in what it considers its sovereign territory, UNCLOS be damned. A similar reading by Finland would let it legally board any Russian ship transitting "its" straits.
Funny, how all the lectures about the "rules based order" and the "rule of law" from Western necons are shown to be total lies by their own words.
Maybe a bunch of small North European countries decide to blockade Russia in the Baltic Sea, and maybe Russia doesn't consider this an act of war, because NATO seems credible enough. Suddenly the Houthi attempt to blockade the Red Sea becomes much more legitimate, and Iran will certainly take note. Maybe Panama goes shopping for allies (since the US is starting to look unpredictable), and maybe China gains the power to decide who gets to use the canal. And maybe Turkey (which is technically a NATO member but not in particularly friendly terms with the West) decides that it is allowed to control access to the Black Sea.
People like predictable rules. If the big guy says that the seas are open and they are open, you will probably support the rule, because it allows you to focus more on trade and less on protecting your interests by force. But if the seas are open, except for those the big guy doesn't like, then you may start wondering if you'll also end up on that list.
Big guys also try to enforce the rules. If piracy or an unjustified blockade threatens the freedom of navigation, naval powers will try to restore the status quo.
Reciprocity is an important norm in international politics. It makes things a bit like a mix of little kids arguing and common law. The key principle is that if the big guy and his friends area allowed to do X for their reasons, it sets the precedent that you are allowed to do what you consider the equivalent of X for your reasons. Either the big guy follows his own rules, or everyone is allowed to use their own judgment to break the rules. But if a random nobody breaks the rules, it doesn't set the precedent in the same way.
If someone violates the expectations but is not strong enough to defend his violation then expectations about behaviors of others towards him might be freely violated as well without destroying whole arrangement between conforming parties.
Interestingly, Turkey is allowed -- by the Montreux Convention -- to close the straits between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean to warships and in fact have been doing so since 2022:
>Turkey has closed off the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits to warships from any country, whether or not they border the Black Sea, following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The strait closures will still allow warships through if they are returning to a home base in the Black Sea, according to reporting from Naval News. This would include Russian ships in the country’s Black Sea Fleet. However, the decision to restrict warships, a power given to Turkey by the Montreux Convention of 1936, will likely limit Russia’s ability to move ships from its other fleets to the Black Sea.
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/28/turkey-closes-bosphorus-dar...
[1] https://www.euronews.com/2024/04/22/military-spending-in-wes...
Common, everyone cried at all the demons when Trump asked Europe to reach 2% of GDP on military spending in 2018. Had we done it, we’d have DOUBLED our spending.
Russia is at 6.3%, USA at 3.4% (7x Russia’s in absolute spending), Europe at 1.3%.
Culture-wise, it’s unthinkable for Europe to come around and revive the military-industrial complex. We’re basically trying to win this war by crossing our fingers, like the French did in 1936 (the famous Congés Payés were offered in 1936, with beautiful photos of parisians going to the beach, while our German cousins were in factories manufacturing guns. Guess who won the war).
No, that's not what people had a problem with, and it's barely even what Trump said.
Trump claimed (again) that the less-spending-than-recommended nations somehow owed payments to the US, and threatened that the US would violate the treaty if they somehow didn't keep him satisfied!
That's the stuff that was new and controversial, and for damn good reasons.
Other parties were already violating the treaty by not spending 2%. It's simple Tit for tat.
> Trump claimed (again) that the less-spending-than-recommended nations somehow owed payments to the US
The US was shouldering the cost of international security (being a hegemon) You take European stability and welfare for granted, we can't know what the world would look like without pax Americana but I'm certain it would be worse. The 'rules based international community' You couldn't even stop a genocide on the EUs front door.
> for damn good reasons
Hopefully I've demonstrated otherwise
That is not a requirement in the treaty, merely a recommendation. Stop making things up to sanewash Trump.
I'd ask you to share an official document outlining this requirement of the treaty. I will be sitting though.
I'm not sure that means what you think it means. Eisenhower wasn't being complementary when he coined that term.
He absolutely disparaged it, in fact he considered it a fundamental threat to democracy.
"Military industrial complex" isn't about maintaining a large, dominant military. It's about industry becoming so entwined with the military that they start calling the shots, and military decisions begin to be made for the benefit of corporations rather than the nation.
For example, Germany also increased its military spending, true - but from a low starting point, with an army even sometimes lacking basic supplies like dumb ammunition due to massive underfunding since the end of the cold war.
The (possible, maybe!) reintroduction of drafting will be agonizingly slow, as the military doesn't have the capacity anymore (and will lack it for years to come!) to even examine even a small percentage of each year, let alone equip and train them. There are no KWEAs (Kreiswehrersatzämter, drafting centers) anymore, and the new "Career Centers" have abysmal throughput.
We sold a very very significant chunk of our military bases and heavy equipment. Those are gone, the federal government often doesn't even own the land anymore. We have almost no working bunkers anymore, both military and public. Etc, etc.
Those are things which we would have to start to change immediately, as it takes ages until we see results. We do sorta, but on a tiny scale - it's not the massive investment you would expect for a country readying itself for conflict.
German politics / state departments are, IMO, in no way readying the public for the real prospect of military conflict. Pistorius, the German defence minister, basically screams into the void. Yes, many agree in talk, but the walk is quite underwhelming.
The defence ministry says we have to be ready for war until 2029. Most projects which are started now will, based on information by the same ministry, never ever be finished until before the 2030s. And yet, there is no hurry visible. We still have time.
So everything you say seems to fit to me.
We're more realistic. We hope it will never happen. But we fear it might. Strategic nuclear bombardment is something that should be feared, not pooh-poohed.
For me it just makes zero sense to lose much sleep about it, except for voting I can't do nothing about it
Some people, especially conservatives, have loved this narrative for forever: The rules-based order is soft, weak, wishy-washy, ineffectual fantasy; and tough, hard, reality is 'realpolitik'. And everyone knows 'tough' beats 'weak'.
IMHO it rationalizes emotional drives we all have for aggression and, feeling threatened and scared, for anger; and it serves the anti-liberal social/political agenda (because somehow a rules-based order, or any mass, peaceful, beneficial cooperation by humans, is now 'liberal' fantasy). But that pisses me off because it distracts and undermines people doing the real work. It's a person who, while we're under attack, freaks out, satisfies those emotional drives, and disrupts the team with verbal hand grenades. It's lazy thinking, IMHO, leaving the hard work of solving the problem - and now servicing someone's emotional needs and cleaning up their mess - to others, who must have the courage to be calm under fire and the courage to do right and find success.
That narrative also does what Putin wants more than anything, the destruction of the rules-based order: A world based on democracy, human rights, and associated international rules makes it impossible for Putin to carry out his imperial desires. The democratic, human-rights-based countries are powerful, unified, prosperous - Putin can't hope to compete. So he's destroying that order without firing a shot at its power base, because he has found many inside those countries to help him, many unwittingly.
The rules-based order isn't dead (as the narrative has declared since its birth). It's not wishy-washy fantasy, it was created by who knew 'realpolitik' and warfare far better than anyone living ever will, unless we are very unlucky; your 'realpolitik' fantasy is the wishy-washy and ignorant side. The rules-based order is not weak or ineffectual; 'realpolitik' is weak and ineffectual; it can't achieve anything; it destroys freedom, lives, and prosperity at massive scales; war, it's outcome, is the worst scourage of humanity. The founders of the rules-based order created it in part because, after WWII, they thought another war with then-current technology could destroy civilization - that was the technology of the 1940s. The rules-based order has been arguably the most powerful force ever in international relations, creating undreamt-of freedom, prosperity, and peace.
It was handed to us on a plate; you had to do nothing to build it, to create this incredible world out of the literal ashes of incredible destruction, hate, and violence - perhaps that's the problem, why some have a fantasy that they want to burn everything and return to living in ashes.
It also accurately renders the actions of the U.S., Russia and China since the fall of the Soviet Union. I would love to move towards a rules-based world order. But the first step in doing so is admitting it isn't the status quo.
But at the same time, no institution, law, or legal system is 100%. The USLRBIO is overall extremely effective - almost no international wars (most have been civil wars), and the recent past being the most peaceful in (millennia?). It's an incredible feat of humanity and international affairs, and freedom exploded across the world, though since has retreated somewhat.
Also, beyond a doubt, military power is a necessary part of it. The reason Russia is violating it now in Ukraine is because others have not demonstrated convincingly that they will supply Ukraine with whatever is needed as long as it's needed (quite affordable given the relative size of economies of Ukraine's allies and Russia). If that was clear, Russia would have no choice.
If that doesn’t work, and unfortunately I’m not confident that it will work, then it becomes an open confrontation between us, EU citizens who don’t care one bit about Ukraine and who certainly aren’t willing to die for it, and those EU citizens that are willing to risk conventional and nuclear war with Russia over the likes of Pokrovsk or Kurachove.
Which is to say, don’t assume that you people form the uncontested majority here in the EU, just look at the Slovak prime-minister or at the Romanian pro-peace presidential candidate who’s had his election victory stolen from under him (I’m Romanian myself)
Nothing makes the West happier than the suffering of Ukrainians, because they can use it to market the war to a populace who has absolutely no idea why it happened, or why it's still happening.
Everything else Russia could do is too much of an escalation. They could fire a missile at a Polish base if they can connect it to attacks launched on Russia's soil, but that's an open attack against NATO, and even though NATO wouldn't respond with anything other than thoughts and prayers, the funding tap would open up fully again due to the propaganda value. That's crazy when Trump is coming in, and there could possibly be a big swing in US administration support for Ukraine. No chance after that. Trump doesn't want to look submissive to Putin, especially after watching Biden be emasculated by Bibi. It's better to have Trump wanting to show that he's not submissive to Zelensky (as if Zelensky could stop this train.)
The best target would have been Americans in Ukraine, which is why after the demonstration of the fact that Russia has missiles that can't be stopped and can reach all of Europe, the US immediately closed its embassy and ran. We'll support Ukrainian attacks with satellite targeting now, we're not worried about Russia firing unstoppable missiles into space.
What's left? Immiseration of European citizens to soften their support. What ability does Russia have to do that? They can sabotage cables. The West blew up Nordstream, it's silly to play superior. Nordstream was also* crucial European infrastructure, and its destruction has made the daily lives of Europeans measurably worse.
> we need to be serious about our adversary that keeps threatening to nuke major European cities off the map
What does this even mean? There's nothing anyone can do about it. Making a serious face won't stop a missile. The only thing protecting European cities is Russian rationality.
I appreciate that the Finns have the balls to confront the Russians while the rest of Europe just doesn't do much, or let themselves be held hostage by Orban and Fico.
"How dare you vote for a leader who doesn't hate Russia?! Don't you care about defending democracy? You have to vote for the leaders we tell you to!"
> On 17 December 2024 the Russian Navy sea rescue tug Yevgeniy Churov[36] was reported to have approached the anchored Yi Peng 3, passing it at very low speed and with its own AIS transmitter turned off.
The next day, investigators were finally allowed to board.
If a vessel turns AIS off then cuts the cable, but their position is known by other means, they will be giving up plausible deniability.
Enough is enough, screw Russia
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/sunken_russian_ship_ursa_majo...
"As for the equipment on board, the Navy spokesman noted that it was "quite expensive, sophisticated, foreign-made, and that russians do not do not produce such items."
"To understand the importance of this equipment is I remind you that for six months they were unable to load Kalibr missiles in Novorossiysk due to the lack of such equipment," Pletenchuk emphasized."
It seems that someone has discovered tech people as willing amplifiers for war mongering (as chickenhawks, naturally, they won't be in the trenches).
I guess this is just local news in the world scale amidst current global events and you must find local source for any quality. Surely it has been covered a lot here in Finland nationally because of rather new kind of hybrid warfare escalation - response event.
[1] https://www-err-ee.translate.goog/1609561714/soome-hoidis-ar...
Newnew Polar Bear managed to escape the scene of the crime without any issues, Yi Peng 3 managed to escape the scene of the crime but was later detained in international waters but not boarded without Chinese officials, and now Eagle S was caught red-handed and boarded immediately.
The Swedish and Danish investigations were closed in February 2024 without identifying those responsible,[16][17] but the German investigation is still ongoing.[18] In August 2024 media reported that in June German authorities issued a European arrest warrant for a Ukrainian national suspected of having used the sailing yacht Andromeda together with two others to sabotage the Nord Stream pipeline.[19] As of June 2024 the suspect is still at large, having reportedly left the EU for Ukraine.[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_pipelines_sabotage