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Comment by jedberg | Hacker News Reader

I'm Jewish, so all my Christmas's growing up were kinda the same. Sleep in, have brunch, wander over to my neighbor's house around noon to see what kind of loot they got and help them play with their new toys. Sometimes we'd go out for Chinese food and a movie.

But my favorite was Christmas 1999. My girlfriend was out of town with her family and there was no reason to go home to mine, so I was alone (my roommates were with their families too). I decided to go to the movies in Emeryville.

I was going to see Galaxy Quest, Bicentennial Man, and Man on the Moon. The timing lined up perfectly to see all three. About 50 other people were there to do the same thing. When it was time to go in for the first movie, a staff member came out and told us that it would start about 30 minutes late. This would of course cause us to miss all the other movies.

About 30 people stepped forward at the same time and asked to speak to the manager. :). We explained to him that it would throw our whole schedule off. Since it was Christmas, he was kind enough to adjust the schedule so that we could all see all three movies.

That was a great day.

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I'm Muslim, so all my Christmas's school and college days were kinda the same, 1980s. I would have a real small tree xmass decorated at home and no one would blink about it, then wander over to my christian friends' neighborhood around noon to see what kind of cherry and wine they were serving. This is that neighborhood now https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1031546789002116&set=pcb...

A Jewish friend of mine would get a small tree and call it his "Moses bush".

I'm Muslim too and I always find it interesting to see how various non-Christian theists observe Christmas. Obviously we don't "celebrate" but I personally don't see anything wrong with partaking in the secular parts of Christmas (and let's be real, in the west, it's pretty much all secular).

My parents felt otherwise when I was growing up, so my siblings and I weren't allowed to do anything Christmas related, but now my wife and I would do seasonal things like watch a live performance of Nutcracker or Pentatonix or TSO. And can't forget about watching the holiday classic movies like Elf and Die Hard!

I will argue that in the US Christmas is in part a secular holiday - given its sorta pagan origins that makes total sense to me. It's a solstice feast basically.

The pagan origins thing is a myth, btw—all the various bits which people point to as evidence still date back to a Christian-era Europe and cannot be traced back further. Christianity has been around for a very very long time and has had a lot of time to evolve its own traditions. :)

For example, Christmas trees date back no later than the middle ages:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY

Nonsense. You're conflating tradition (tree in this case) with festivals and ancient religious rites. See:

- Yule

- Dísablót

- Koliada

- Lohri

- Saturnalia

- Yaldā Night

- Nardoqan

No, I'm not. All of these are, to the extent we know about them at all (which in some cases we don't know much), entirely unlike any Christmas traditions we have today which are claimed to be pagan in origin.

How do you know Christmas simply didn't align itself to those holidays themselves, because after all, a year end winter feast is nothing new in history? Or that the traditions we have today may have at once been part of such syncreticization but then died out until the modern day? In other words we don't necessarily have to see such traditions today per se for Christmas to have absorbed them over its time.

We don't. But we also don't know that they were, and we don't have enough quality evidence in favor of that hypothesis to justify the confidence with which it is asserted.

In the absence of evidence about the timing being affected by other festivals and in the presence of much evidence that all the actual traditions are far more recent than pagan, I don't believe it's fair to claim Christmas has pagan origins. The absolute best we can do is say that its timing may have been influenced by other, pre-Christian celebrations.

I agree but I also would be interested to see any proof for the claims you're talking about with regards to Christmas not having any pagan roots, where are you finding this information or rather, where can I read more?

I linked one example—a video on Christmas trees from a religious studies scholar. They have similar content on the date of Christmas, and there are plenty of sources on each other tradition.

Here's another one on Saturnalia from the same scholar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsctaPJSvo

Great, appreciate it. Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas indeed!

One small exception Russian empire turned a figure from Pagan mythology into a St Claus like figure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz But my understanding is that him handing out gifts didn't come from Pagan traditions and was a result of largely copying Santa Claus traits.

Later during Soviet times secularish Christmas traditions including Ded Moroz were moved to New Year's.

In Scandinavia languages, xmas is still called Yule. Not sure if having the same name is enough to prove that its a continuation?

Yeah, but you can 100% remove Christian theology and still have a fun time.

Correct, but that's because most of the traditions have always been somewhat secular in nature (with religious significance strapped on after the tradition was already going) and have only become more so, not because they were borrowed/appropriated/adapted from a pre-Christian source.

All of the bits that do make up secular christmas, do have pagan origins, which is more or less my point.

My general take is that every major religion has some sort of solstice related celebration.

No, they don't. That's my point—all the bits that make up secular Christmas have Christian origins and have become secularized over time. For every tradition that is commonly cited as having pagan origins, we can trace it back until it becomes entirely unrecognizable and it's still all Christians all the way down.

As near as I can tell the myth of the pagan origins of Christmas has its roots in fundamentalist Christians who wanted to abolish things that aren't contained in the Bible. "Pagan" made a good rhetorical whip at the time, but it's since been taken as a serious approach to history by popular culture.

ChatGPT and Grok say Christmas either does or might have pagan origins, but not that it definitely does not have pagan origins (yes, I know "proving negatives"is very difficult†).

ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/share/676c8fd1-b6e0-8005-a86f-d43ac17634...

Grok: https://x.com/i/grok/share/8fQKIFO1WGl3nDVZ6uFaJmPTW

†Grok on proving negatives: https://x.com/i/grok/share/kcHkjqzJ5lx5kMyl4GL0nMuw3

LLMs do very poorly at judging the truth of long-term myths. When something has been asserted confidently on the internet over a long enough period of time it becomes baked into the weights, regardless of truth.

I provided a source from a religious studies scholar on Christmas trees specifically (one of the most frequently-cited "pagan" traditions). If you can point me to something with similar provenance I'll read it, but I'm not going to waste time on LLM responses.

Ok, but what about asking someone who knows (anything)?

> pagan origins thing is a myth, btw

Saturnalia? (I’m watching your video.)

Given how diversely Christmas is celebrated, it seems wild to conclude that it hasn’t been significantly affected by predecessor celebrations.

Saturnalia is covered here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsctaPJSvo

That’s the video I began watching.

What is the argument for it not having influenced many modern Christmas practices, including but not limited to the celebration’s timing in the West?

The fact that there's almost nothing that overlaps with Christmas besides the timing, and that the timing has other plausible explanations.

FWIW, I'm very open to the timing having been shifted to coincide with other festivals, but that's not what most people mean when they say Christmas has pagan origins. They're not saying that Christmas isn't actually the day Jesus was born (I'm totally on board with that idea), they're saying that X, Y, and Z aspects of the Christmas celebration were originally pagan and were adapted for Christianity. I have seen no compelling evidence in favor of that claim about any aspect of Christmas traditions, and I've seen plenty against.

> fact that there's almost nothing that overlaps with Christmas besides the timing

The drunken revelry?

Given these two explanations for the drunken revelry,

1. Christmas has its origins in Saturnalia, but the only remaining similarity is the approximate date and the drunkenness.

2. Humans will happily accept any excuse to get drunk during the longest nights of the year.

I lean towards option 2 as a much simpler and more likely explanation.

It was also entirely contrived by the Council of Nicaea.

I think Christmas is whatever one makes of it. Whether or not one believes it's a Christian holiday or Pagan holiday — celebrate/observe (or don't) how you like. My wife's family is Catholic and they believe it's a sacred holiday so they celebrate it religiously. Its origins aren't important to that effect. Many religious traditions can probably be traced to secular origins.

Personally for me, it's a good excuse to take time off work and hang out and feast with people who also have time off work. I personally think that (at least in the States) it's basically a Commercial Holiday, in that it just encourages over-consumption, consumerisation.

I spoke to a muslim who basically just "gave in" and started doing Christmas at home because the kids wanted it. With the tree and Xmas presents etc even.

Yeah that's probably more common than you might expect. My mom is a teacher at an Islamic school and some of her 1st graders would often say stuff like "we have a Christmas tree at home but my mom told me not to tell anyone," which might give you an idea of how Muslims view Christmas.

It's not something I personally want to do for my family, but I don't think any less of families that do that.

The Soviet Union cancelled Christmas then later took the secular parts of Christmas (New Year's tree,a Santa like figure Ded Moroz/Grandfather Frost was original some sort of pagan slavic mystical figure before somehow being molded into a very Santa Claus character) and moved it to New Year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novy_God

Soviet style New Year's is still celebrated in a number of post Soviet countries including I believe to some extent in some of the Muslim ones. It's also celebrated by post Soviet Jews in Israel and to some extent the US. Although the recent full scale invasion on Ukraine might effect popularity due to it's Soviet association.

My house looks like that photo now too. I love Christmas music too.

In fact my friend's house is featured in the top link on HN right now. He's helped me with my own show.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42494512

> But my favorite was Christmas 1999. My girlfriend was out of town

Classic.

FWIW I ended up marrying her. Now we go out of town together. :)

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Jews have contributed significantly to what is recognizable today as Christmas time.

Many catchy classic Christmas songs were written by Jewish songwriters.

That's nice!

Bob Dylan has Jewish heritage as well, although I don't recall him writing any Christmas songs.

I don't think he wrote any .. but he did release an entire album of classic christmas songs ..

Christmas in the Heart (2009) - 34th Studio album by Bob Dylan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_the_Heart

Didn't he go through a phase in the 80s in which he was super into Christianity?

Yup, he embraced Christianity, that's why I wrote "heritage".

Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer was written by a great Jewish man, how cool is that! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._May

Rudolph has an odd nose, and he gets chosen to lead all the other Reindeer! Kids love this song. You teach it to them when they are young and they'll never forget it!

I’m sure this is just a coincidence than but Rudolph sounds a like Adolf, or in today’s concept Russian Adolf. And word red doesn’t help, as red was favorite SSSR color. 0_o

They're just Germanic names

That second sentence was absolutely not what the first sentence led me to believe what was coming!

Just say the name of the great jazz artist Mel Tormé...

"I saw a spiral pad... Forty minutes later that song was written. I wrote all the music and some of the lyrics."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Christmas_Song

We also contributed the protagonist.

We all know that the protagonist of Christmas in 2024 are Santa Claus and the gifts. It has been massively secularized.

Jews wrote all the classic Christmas hits including:

- Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer

- Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire

- The New Testament

You need to hit an open mic night. You are hilarious.

I’m Jewish too. But I’ve always been around people who celebrate Christmas. I don’t bother lighting the Menorah for Hanukkah this year since I live alone. I got half a mind to go to the local temple and sit with strangers there but I don’t really feel like it. Treating myself to some McDonalds a la uber eats today. I never eat the stuff.

Please don’t poison yourself with that chemical food!

I hope that Christmas finds you in a wealth of joy and whatever you’re looking for that causes such comments. We are all fighting our own battles and this is my sincere hope that you win yours!

Sorry, what? Not wanting someone to poison themselves is an expression of love

One meal won't kill them.

> The dose makes the poison

if it makes it any better I had a plant burger xD, i find it hilarious how everyone fixated on the mcdonalds part of the comment

I mean I share the sentiment against low quality food and its effect on health, as probably everybody who eats there is also probably aware of too, but again, this is not the time or the place...

All food is chemical food. That's why we eat it, for the chemical energy.

I am sure that nutrition was the key part of his message. Well spotted!

This is the top comment I hope for on every Christmas. Some of us draw snowmen instead of Santas. We all get a day to enjoy in our own way though. Sounds like a great time.

My upbringing was pretty secular but we still did plenty of snow angels.

Wow what a great set of movies too

1999 is considered by many enthusiasts as a peak movie year. It was a great cap to a great year.

https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?title_type=feature&releas...

I guess I never really thought about it, but yea a lot of bangers on that list

Oh that explains it, I thought it was just when I came of age. I did become suspicious that perhaps it wasn’t just a personal bias when I noticed the same movies on lists made by very different age groups.

I graduated in 1995 in LA. Going to the movies was something most of us did every weekend. Just show up and get a ticket for the next thing you haven’t seen yet.

Many consider 1994 the best single year for movies ever.

I got really lucky that that was also my peak movie going year.

1994: Shawshank, Forrest Gump... can't think of others right now

Pulp Fiction and Shallow Grave were two from 1994 that spring to mind for me.

https://www.imdb.com/search/title/?title_type=feature&releas...

Pulp Fiction

Lion King

The Mask

Four Weddings and a Funeral

Dumb and Dumber

The Crow

Speed

True Lies

Interview with the Vampire

Natural Born Killers

Ace Ventura

Stargate

Clerks

The list goes on. Lot's of movies that turned out to be classics or cult classics, or the start of some great careers.

It was around this time, in a little city of about 15,000, in South Australia, when my mum received a gift and voucher from Blockbuster for being in the top ten for most movie rentals in one year.

This was a time when movies were on VHS tapes, and there was a bit before the start of the movie that said something like “have you seen every movie ever made?”[1]

And at the time it certainly felt like we had watch nearly everything that store and one other had over the previous five years.

1. https://youtu.be/VfuzebAAesk?si=z3-HYkZwJK6mmtWP - I think there was at least a couple variations

That is one pretty unbelievable list.

Of course it was peak - the Matrix came out

Nobody even knows about Dark City which came out the same year. Because the freaking Matrix came out too. That's just how many good films there were that year. If Dark City came out today it would be lauded as most original thing in a decade.

Don’t forget about Equlibrium with Christian Bale as a Tetragrammaton Cleric. Gunkata.

It hasn’t held up too well objectively, but Equilibrium does hold a fond memory for me.

Isn't that from 2002?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(film)

Don’t forget about The 13th Floor, also from 1999.

Youre right, Dark City was amazing.

But the elevator lobby shootout from Matrix -- that scene ruled my home theater configuration for at least a decade

Worth mentioning Office Space as well for 99. All three of those films comprise the Pre-Millennium paranoid, existential, system of control trilogy.

iirc scenes from the matrix were actually filmed on some of the sets from dark city. The atmosphere and setting directly bleeds over.

And Dark City was delayed after it was finished, it should have come out before The Matrix. I copy here my previous HN comment from June 2023: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36415981

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I watched Dark City years after watching The Matrix (on opening in the cinema) and I enjoyed it very much, have watched it multiple times over the years.

Here is Dark City’s director Alex Proyas: “Alex Proyas on: The Matrix copying Dark City” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytxjsetVIRM

And this is a juxtaposition of some scenes with background music: “The Matrix vs. Dark City.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moW17YHl6B8

This is Mr. Hand [Richard O’Brien] talking in ”Memories of Shell Beach”:

> It was a very groovy movie, you see?

> I remember saying to Rufus Sewell [who played the protagonist], I said, you know, it actually, truthfully, it really doesn’t matter, does it, whether it’s a box-office success because we’re going to get paid as actors anyway, sorry Alex [Proyas] but this is true, we’re gonna get paid as actors anyway and isn’t it nice to be part of something which is groovy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrK4U6PEu94&t=1029s

I refer to dark city all the time when creating AI agents, when Kiefer would inject them with particular memories when the city stood still. And Shell Beach pops into my mind when I take the train to the former grandios Coney Island.

Existenz was another unique underappreciated movie of that year and whose theme never got picked by any other movie. When Jude Law realizes that the Chinese food he is eating can be put together to assemble the gun my mind was blown.

The Matrix, Dark City, The Thirteenth Floor, and Existenz.

Saw all of them in 1999 / 2000, my career direction was decided in that brief period.

Dark City released in February, 1998. Great movie, though.

Didn't expect Dark City to be mentioned in the Christmas thread. Great movie, indeed. Dark, mysterious and thought provoking.

Fun fact: 1999 was also 'peak public phone booths'. Ever since then, they've declined in number and now are almost impossible to find. Every year it gets harder to follow that damn rabbit...

huh, american beauty was 99. i always remember the "plastic bag caught in the wind" scene - when i was in middle school, years before i saw the movie, i was sitting on the sidelines during football practice and saw a plastic bag caught in the wind. it was hypnotizing, enrapturing - i dont know how long i watched, but that floating bag caught against the side of the school building was one of the most beautiful things ive ever seen.

It was peak music too. I really don't think things have got much better since 1999. If you watch/listen to something even from 1997 it seems dated. But 99? Could have been made yesterday.

I wasn’t aware of this, was still a teenager at that time. May be because of this I was never impressed with later years…

I punched in 1972 and there were some fantastic movies that year (The Godfather, Deliverance, Cabaret, Solaris, Jeremiah Johnson, Aguirre - the Wrath of God, The Last House on the Left, Silent Running, The Heartbreak Kid, Fat City, etc.).

Also tried 1973 — same (The Day of the Jackal, Soylent Green, Westworld, The Wicker Man, Papillon, American Graffiti, The Sting, Serpico, Mean Streets, High Plains Drifter, Don't Look Now, Badlands, The Long Goodbye, Jesus Christ Superstar, The Three Musketeers, Fantastic Planet, etc.).

I think they simply made better movies decades ago.

Maybe if they stopped the endless reboots, remakes, sequels and derivatives. There’s still a good one every once in a while. Oh well, I know what movie I’m watching today… you’ll shoot your eye out, kid!

Welcome to Hollywood's two decades of superhero movies.... I'm sure historians will greedily watch many of the classics of this early part of the 21st Century.

It's Christmas, I shouldn't be so negative.

I think I'll indulge in Alastair Sims' version of "A Christmas Carol".

It’s the J.J. Abrams misery box storytelling that ruined most TV shows / movies for me. Turning lazy writing from a vice into a virtue. Many shows now feel like they’re actively and intentionally wasting my time, ironically curing me of my desire to watch TV/Movies freeing up time for better uses.

The other lazy writing is the lack of conflict resolution enabling a continuous source of needless conflict, making an entire show out of a situation that could have easily been resolved if there had been a single ‘adult’ in the room. This has the added problem of normalizing the extreme confrontational or evasive communication styles as opposed to productive engagements. I guess this is what happens when TV raises a generation and then that generation goes on to make their own TV shows, each cycle worse than the previous. As bad as ‘engagement’/‘rage bait’ YouTubers are now I shudder to imagine what the next generation would bring.

Hollywood has done reboots/remakes forever how many remakes of "a star is born" for example has had three remakes (1954, 1976, 2018) since its first version in 1937. There is nothing new.

You’re less likely to remember the not great stuff from bygone eras. Not to say there aren’t peaks and valleys through the years, though.

The Mummy (1999) was the first theater movie for me, it was an epic experience!

OK, i am ignorant, but why do most Jewish people eat Chinese food on Christmas? Is there something I am missing?

Most other places are closed. Chinese restaurants are typically open on Christmas!

My understanding is it's the only other places that are open on Christmas.

I believe it's because Chinese restaurants historically are the only ones open since they don't celebrate Christmas.

Chinese restaurants are often owned by first or second generation Chinese immigrants who (1) aren't Christian and (2) haven't been in the US long enough to adopt local customs. Since restaurants often are marginally profitable, they tend to stay open on Christmas because there is profit to be made, especially since most of the competition is closed that day.

If you are Jewish, Christmas obviously isn't nearly as important to your (often nominally) Christian neighbors and there isn't much to do on Christmas day. If you decide you don't want to cook, Chinese restaurants are way over-represented in the choice of open restaurants. Once you do that for a couple years it becomes its own tradition.

I grew up in a Catholic household but my family, after years of making Turkey and spending hours cooking, for the past few years has switched to Chinese food on Christmas. I don't miss the turkey and gravy.

Chinese restaurants will also often have whole roast duck which is an easy way to get the dinner centerpiece if you’re cooking the rest. My family doesn’t eat out but we always get a whole duck on Christmas and Thanksgiving (it’s a 20 year old tradition at this point).

Others have mentioned that it's because Chinese places are open, but another reason is that Chinese food is (or was) not obviously treif, meaning that there is (or was) a degree of plausible deniability around eating it.

Source: family apocrypha.

I was not aware that the error bars between kashrut and marit ayin are that wide. I figured that it was because of the intersection of Jewish middle class culture and Chinese culture starting in the 1930s, and because Chinese restaurants generally do not serve dairy products.

I think those are factors as well!

This is all apocrypha, so take it with a grain of salt. But my understanding is that this would be a case where marit ayin would not be a significant concern, since the Chinese dishes in question were not visually identifiable as e.g. pork.

Or another framing: if you were a semi-secular family (like mine) that tried to keep a semi-kosher home, it would be easier to eat a dish that contained finely minced pork or shellfish or similar. American Chinese food fits those parameters while also being available on Christmas, etc.

I was under the impression that Chinese food is all about pork. Something like that Modi's rant: https://m.facebook.com/reel/1021462526286349

There's also a lot of vegetarian/non-pork-but-fleishig Chinese food. But the point was more that Chinese food that isn't kosher isn't obviously so, especially 60-70 years ago when it was less commonplace.

My Christmas Eve tradition with my wife for the last 14 years has been to eat as much Chinese food as we possibly can at our favorite Chinese place. Then we drive around town looking at Christmas lights while listening to classic Christmas music. Neither of us are religious, but we were both raised Christian.

I came into this thread thinking that I don't really have any great Christmas memories. My family was poor growing up, my parents shouldn't have been together for as long as they tried to make it work, and my father had a lot of issues with drugs and alcohol. But now that I think about it, these Christmas Eve memories with my wife are my favorite.

It’s not just Jewish people; it’s anyone who doesn’t want to cook, and Chinese restaurants are historically the only thing open.

I'm largely of the "hell is other people" mindset around Christmas, from the overtly fascist elderly relatives to the incomprehensible demands of immediate family. I would love just one Christmas like that!

Indeed. If you have a nice family to be around at Christmas cherish it, it's not so common as it seems!

I think people tend to fascism as they age, the more they've done and seen and accumulated, the more conservative they get and the more their personal experience of the world must be maintained, protected.

Talk to them about their youth, when they were wild and rebellious. Find out what trouble they caused. Remind them, and it just might crack the encrusted exterior a little bit.

See, i believe this is generally trueish for the current moment, has it always been true though? For example, I've already passed the time in which my father _insisted_ I would become conservative and have very much not developed anything like the conservative values of modern America. Though, maybe it's just that conservatism has drastically changed since the 70s. For instance, i certainly have become less insistent on things like UBI and more realistic about single payer Healthcare, but i have not developed disdain for illegal immigrants, the desire to force birth, anti-gay marriage, anti-trans, etc. Were these perquisites to be conservative in the 70s? I'd say im fiscally slightly left, but socially i simply cannot understand the rights positions, it just sounds like hater shit to me

Are you conflating fascism with conservatism? Stalin was a socialist, a fascist and a conservative in the sense in which the 'c' word indicates 'maintenance of the status quo'. Certainly conservatives like to conserve & we hope that means saving that which is generally considered worth conserving though opinions differ when it comes to the details. Hitler was a national socialist and most definitely a fascist. Unregulated powerful elements in any society will always tend towards a degree of compulsion to maintain their status and we're not short of examples in the West. 'and the more their personal experience of the world must be maintained, protected.' is merely an assertion which you choose to believe. I'm sure examples can be found but also plenty of counter examples. You can't generalize.

If you started 30 minutes late you wouldn’t miss all the other movies just the middle one

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