Paris to Berlin by train is now faster by five hours
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
Rough estimate for a flight:
- 36 min train from Gare de l’Est to Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport
- 90 min arrival before your flight (security, check-in, gate closes before flight leaves, ..)
- 100 min flight time
- 20 min getting out of the airport
- 30 min taxi to Berlin Hbf (assuming no traffic)
I think if you have large bags you can add an extra hour (max) even as check-in will take longer, and you'll have to wait for your bag.
Which makes it 8,5 hours vs 4.6 hours, or 5.6 hours with bags. (I added 30 minutes to the train as you probably need to be there a little early.)
Having done this a couple of times (Amsterdam to Berlin, which is about the same) with both modes of transport. I have to say I prefer the train if I have the time. Much more relaxed way of transportation. You can work the whole way there, and there are ok lunch options on the train.
Sure it’s slower, but you’ll spend most of the time sleeping and it saves you one night at a hotel.
They're incredible.
[0]: https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-genera...
I have spent many nights on trains in various countries, seats, floor and berth. I will prefer a couchette or sleeper if the price is somewhat reasonable. But I won't live in the expectation to get something comfortable. Just less uncomfortable.
I can do 10h on a plane fine. 3h on a train does me in every time.
At least on trains I have a chance. Googling how the climate controlled worked before my previous trip helped, but that followed a hot journey.
I took the trip to Vienna in one of the old bunk bed cars for 60€ and it was fine. I liked the experience of chatting with the fellow passengers in the cabin that you usually don’t have on a normal train ride.
I used to go to Holland and Germany from France back when I was living there and even though at the time it would take longer (slower and less trains) the trip was totally worth it: I even met people who eventually became friends. Now, when flying from Spain to France (every couple of years), even though the flight is less than two hours, the entire trip is more than four, and much less fun or enjoyable as far as I'm concerned. For the moment, it's just easier to take the plane but that's supposed to change... We'll see.
If air travel could be more streamlined (aka, no need for things like security, check-in, like how a train would be), then trains are absolutely uncompetitive on speed.
The only advantage of a train would be that you could more easily sleep in one - so an overnight trip is less tiring, and you save on cost of an extra night of hotel stay.
And of course it's much better on CO2 emissions.
But trains need a lot of infrastructure and long delays are frequent.
This is quite common in Blighty; there is no need for another ticket (outside some time restricted fares where the ability to stop is limited). Indeed, it can be nice hopping off at a new city for a mooch around if you have time to do so.
(Only slightly off-topic; We have the phenomenon of 'split tickets', where it can be cheaper to buy two tickets from A --> B --> C rather than one ticket from A --> C even when the train stops at B anyway! You don't even need to get out of the train at B if you don't wish to do so. Our ticketing system is a mess.)
All saver tickets in German (which is what most people use), and most TGV tickets (even non saver) are bound to specific trains at specific times.
https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung
The UK is the odd exception here. But it also doesn't have real high speed trains, except from the one that leaves the country, where hopping off is impossible (unless you want to end up in a dark tunnel under the sea and be arrested afterwards).
Flexible tickets are becoming unaffordable for certain journeys such as those on the ECML with LNER (aka The Government)
Notably, I say noise, and I suspect reasonable people will point out how not-quiet trains can be. I think the only argument I need to make for how much quieter they are than aircraft is pointing out on a map where the (commuter) train yards are (routinely city-center) vs airfields (typically the outskirts, far from where people live)
Aircraft require less infrastructure between points, but when you get there a rail yard doesn't require multi-kilometer runways (plural) and taxiways.
PS - My god, I hadn't realized how pro-train / anti-aircraft I was until I started on; even having previously worked in aviation, suggesting it was a damn good idea to leave. Aircraft may be an incredible feat of human engineering, but like the personal automobile, we as a society have taken it too far and used them in places that could do with fewer of them, IMO.
In London complaints about noise from stations was more common at some point than from the train itself. ("The train now approaching platform 2 is the midnight forty-five South West Trains service to London Waterloo calling at London Waterloo only. This train is formed of eight carriages. If you see anything suspicious, call the British Transport Police on 1984. See it, say it, suck on it.")
If we get rid of other considerations, and train travel could be more streamlined (strap a jet engine on a train, no need to gain altitude), then airplanes are absolutely uncompetitive on speed.
well, hyperloop tried and failed. It's just not practical.
I usually arrive 40 minutes before the train starts moving, including large luggage (30 minutes before is the limit at which the ticket gates close). There is no waiting for you luggage on arrival because you always have it in your hand.
This is also possible because the distance between check-in gates and the train is only around 50 meters in all 3 stops (London, Brussels, Paris). On those 50 meters you have the luggage scanners, passport control, and the waiting hall.
Compare that to kilometers of walking at Heathrow Airport.
I agree I'd like more peace but this stuff isn't making it slower.
Me too, but I worry a bit that it might change. A big part of the inconvenience of flying is the security checks[1].
I only see these ramped up for trains as well. Look at the EuroStar for a glimpse into the future. I am afraid it will only take one bigger attack and we will turn train stations into airports security-wise.
[1] The other big one is airports being far from centres.
Terrorist attacks on trains and railway stations are not that rare. The last major one was in November in Pakistan.
This bullshit also happens in Barcelona Sants for the long-distance trains.
No other train in Britain or France has security checks.
The security checks are fairly minor. They are mostly looking for gas canisters and explosives.
Recently I had to get a train 250km in Italy and it would have been quicker, cheaper and less stressful to fly to London and back due to the problems.
The “from” bit is worth to stress here: with DB (German railway company), one-way fares may be up to €233.00 for second class or €384.00 for first class, depending on demand, the cancellation policy you choose, and how long you book in advance. Seat reservations are extra.
There is no way Paris-Berlin is going to be this cheap. From experience I expect the train to be at least twice more expensive than flying.
Having worked a few years with SNCF, it can’t be otherwise. It’s the most mismanaged company I have ever worked for, gangrened by unions which fight tooth and nails to preserve advantages which reasons to exist disappeared decades ago. Unions review the full trains planning with management before it’s validated and veto any optimisations which would cut overtime or might impact compensations without any regards for customers. It’s revolting.
I don’t know the pricing at SNCF (French railway company).
I've heard that before, but usually from the crowd that wants to privatise the whole country anyway. I understand that you're claiming to have witnessed it, but do you have some sources?
Surely, the amount of money they pour onto Cap Gemini and many other consulting firms to rebuild existing systems instead of having teams in-house who could maintain them must have an impact on ticket costs...
I have witnessed that and more like optimisation software being disabled to avoid cutting into overtime. Just go take a look at how drivers are paid and where their comp comes from. It’s all public knowledge. Take a look at the recurring reports from the court of auditors or talk with anyone working there.
We are talking about a company in which the two main unions are openly Trotskyist and which has a permanent strike warning by rotating between union to open one in defiance of French law.
This is not drum beating for privatisation by the way (even if all the formerly public French companies I had the misfortune to work for are fairly mismanaged but nothing as bad as SNCF thankfully). I am sure with enough reforms it could work while being public. I mean Singapore manages so it’s not impossible.
It’s just impossible to wonder why France is in such a sorry state after having working for anything publicly managed in France. The French state carves exception for itself in all the labour laws because they know their administration is so poor they can’t respect them.
Certainly privatization can work. JR seems to have a decent reputation (obviously not without fault). But gaming things like overtime rules is a cultural problem, one that you're not going to solve with mandates or privatization. For quite a while the drivers at San Francisco's public transit agency were forbidden to strike. Instead you'd get sickouts and work slowdowns.
The working conditions at SNCF are not even imaginable for an American.
We are taking unlimited sick days, between 28 and 38 days off a year excluding sick days, 10 bank holidays, retirement between 50 and 60 with pensions calculated on the last few years of work, subvention on train tickets for family members. That’s while working less than 40 hours a week and despite that they still manage to strike at least a week a year generally when it’s the most annoying for people actually working.
Everyone with a French employment contract does
> between 28 and 38 days off a year excluding sick days, 10 bank holidays
25 days is the legal minimum, more is common in many industries, including most engineering fields. Of course we all have the same bank holidays in the country.
> retirement between 50 and 60 with pensions calculated on the last few years of work
Yep, that's a good one. A relic from when their life expectancy was much shorter due to coal. Indeed that's hard to justify.
> subvention on train tickets for family members
Annoying too... but I'm not sure it's significant.
> That’s while working less than 40 hours a week
The legal working time in France is 35h/week, if you do more than that your employer must compensate in a way or another. That SNCF abides by that law isn't shocking, what is shocking is that our NHS doesn't.
> they still manage to strike at least a week a year generally when it’s the most annoying for people actually working.
The latest strike was about the freight branch that is being sold to competitors to please the EU commission... Not exactly a request for more champagne next to the coffee machine of the drivers. [0]
I, too, dislike the SNCF because my trains are unreliable and expensive, and their customer support is absolute rubbish, but you clearly are arguing in bad faith and repeating whatever is in our current wave of reactionary media, all without having provided a single source yet.
[0] https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2024/11/21/dema...
That's not my experience at all. I live in France with no car and I don't fly domestic (obviously).
I'll do Paris to Lyon (400 km) during peak holidays in next few days. That's €192 back and forth, for 2 persons. And I don't have any preferential prices.
I'll go further than Lyon, right to a ski station actually. That's another €100 for 2 persons, back and forth.
So that's about 1300 km at €150 /pax at one of the most expensive time of the year.
From my point of view, DB trains are cheap, and first class is reasonably comfortable with a power point and meals ordered to your seats.
Punctuality is a different matter of course.
(I just checked the prices for a late January return trip I'll be doing, and right now it's 100 EUR return, 53 / 47 for the legs.)
In the other direction on the other hand…
The DB Navigator app can now "even" show that your you are no longer bound to specific trains when that happens, with a little banner in the top.
Then you get the pleasure of arguing with DB about compensation. Of course, only possible by post.
German railways are not an etalon of punctuality anymore, the infrastructure has rotten due to years of neglect.
But as compensation the holy debt brake (Schuldenbremse) persists! That should make future generations very happy, while driving their horse teams over clay paths. /s
Amusingly, China uses pieces of technology which were developed in Europe for its train system. Signalling is a good exemple (CTCS is basically ETCS). Europe is as usual deploying at a snail pace while China put it everywhere.
It was obvious from the start it would end up this way. China is an actual country while Europe is a loose collection of countries which don’t really like each other supposedly spearheaded by Germany which actually only cares about pushing policies in its own interest and actively hinder anything else, and France which remains stuck thirty years in the past and is actively being sabotaged by most of the things the EU forces it to do regarding infrastructure (more true in energy than in rail that being said).
The discussion makes sense with China which is pushing forward quickly using new tech. The US is not even part of it.
Germany alone is also an actual country and the trains inside it's borders are super slow.
In China and Japan, many long distance trains get 320 km/h average speed!
The German ICE "machine" could theoretically also do that speed but there are barely any tracks where this is possible, so the average speed is around 3x slower.
In France and Italy it is much better. TGV and Frecciarossa trains usually operate much closer to their specced speeds.
For trips up to about 1500km I’ll favor the train because it’s just more comfortable — security checks are sane, no luggage check, and more leg room. Beijing to Shanghai could be faster by train or by plane depending on which airport you fly into, and where your destination is within the city.
Beijing to HK is a different story. The fastest trains to Shenzhen (right across from HK) are currently 7h50m, compared to a 3.5 hr flight. An overnight sleeper is a good option, especially if you have 3 friends to travel with.
I found traveling by slow train or long distance bus much more pleasant in China because you can just walk in, buy a ticket to wherever and head out the same day. They take ages and there are all the usual delays, but the experience is much less stressful and more comparable to the train experience people from other countries might expect.
All that said, I'd still pick Chinese high speed rail over flying just for emissions reasons if nothing else.
[1] https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructu...
I would not be surprised if purely mechanical ones achieve higher reliability than some generations of digital ones.
But many small signal boxes are vulnerable if there is not enough staff, which has been a common problem for a couple of years. Naturally mechanical signal boxes are very limited in their range.
It shouldn't even be 3-4 hours total, with the speeds modern trains can achieve... I guess that's the improvement (from some slow train to a faster version).
They only compare to some strange, Russian direct train.
The reference should be the current best connection, which would have one train switch.
The difference between this new connection and the fastest connection with one switch is ~15 minutes.
You could fly from NYC to Berlin which is 6x the distance and the American would get there at the same time as their counterpart leaving Paris.
For people traveling there rail networks is it like a tourist thing for train buffs? At least with a maglev train you can make the case that the it might be on par with an equivalent flight.
News items like this one are just propaganda pieces pushed from top to down by the mainstream media in a futile (imo) attempt to convince the uncivilised and not-environmentally friendly masses that there is a good-enough alternative to cheap flights. There isn't, cause these train-rides are both a lot more expensive and they take a lot more time compared to taking RyanAir.
Basically the well-off middle-classes and higher have become a little scared that their summer properties located just a few meters from the seashore might get damaged in any one way (rising sea levels, stronger storms etc), ditto for their other properties located in the middle of forest somewhere close to a mountain (like forest fires), and hence why they try (through the mainstream media that they fully control) to tie us down to where we currently happen to live, no more tourist-ing to Cyprus, the Cyclades in Greece or to Southern Spain in order to have a cheaper glass of beer (or several more), and, God forbid, trying to have some (short-lived) proletarian fun in this stressful life.
Taking a flight means losing a minimum of half a day, regardless of the actual flight time.
Modern trains can do that in 3 hours, on conventional rail (no maglev needed).
The trains can do that already for 40 years (the ICE could to 400 km/h in 1988):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express
The problem is that in contrast to China, Japan, France, and Italy, Germany does not build straight tracks that allow that speed.
If you put a Chinese straight train track between Berlin and Paris, the travel time would be 3 hours, without sacrificing comfort.