Why Are Men More Vulnerable to Depression in Fatherhood?
thereader.mitpress.mit.edu
thereader.mitpress.mit.edu
All the best and don't forget that it can get better!
Best of luck, friend. :)
They might just have said that not to sound alarming, and to close the subject.
You know yourself infinitely better than anyone else does, so if you have even the slightest doubt, you should never rely on others to decide what's best for you.
Be especially wary of people close to you, as proximity increases the belief of knowledge much more easily than actual knowledge.
Reminds me of a Philip Roth quote: "The fact remains that getting people right is not what living is all about anyway. It's getting them wrong that is living, getting them wrong and wrong and wrong and then, on careful reconsideration, getting them wrong again."
Kids aren’t kids forever. They get older and become more autonomous. You want them to grow up and be successful in all things in life. Surprisingly, beyond some life skills, if kids have people in their life that care about them then they have a greater chance of loving themselves, which helps them face life’s challenges.
Now you are just making him feel worse, since his problem is that he can't give his kids love and compassion.
You also don't see your friends as much and it can feel isolating. This also leads to more stress for you and your partner. Many people divorce/break up during this time because of the this.
I wouldn't change a thing though. I love being a father.
No sure about the stats / difference.
That's an awful way to write that. You're insinuating that maybe their friends weren't true. How could you know?
I also had 2 family members and 2 good friends commit suicide over my lifetime: no idea about stats again, but I know a lot of people (and I live in a completely different country now) who had similar stats.
The human being is still adapting to a very new and very foreign reality.
https://ericalayne.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/kidhappy.gi...
https://www.ted.com/talks/rufus_griscom_alisa_volkman_let_s_...
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/parents-under-pressu...
(parent)
I'm 33y into mine and I don't know how long it/me will last.
Esp the 20 year commitment if you get separated and if there are children and if you just cant see the other person anymore after years of relationship before the children arrived.
> ~48% of first marriages fail, ~60% of second marriages, ~70% third marriages.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4240051/
> The Centers for Disease Control stopped gathering complete data on the number of children affected by divorce in 1988, and at that time more than one million children were affected (Cohen 2002). Since then, the incidence of divorce has continued to climb, and according to the 2009 American Community Survey, only 45.8 percent of children reach age 17 years while still living with their biologic parents who were married before or around the time of the child's birth (Fagan and Zill 2011). The majority of divorces affect younger children since 72 percent of divorces occur during the first 14 years of marriage. Because a high percentage of divorced adults remarry, and 40 percent of these remarriages also end in divorce, children may be subjected to multiple family realignments (Cohen 2002).
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-exp...
> 57% of adults under 50 who say they’re unlikely to ever have kids say a major reason is they just don’t want to; 31% of those ages 50 and older without kids cite this as a reason they never had them
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/10/05/rising-...
> As relationships, living arrangements and family life continue to evolve for American adults, a rising share are not living with a romantic partner. A new Pew Research Center analysis of census data finds that in 2019, roughly four-in-ten adults ages 25 to 54 (38%) were unpartnered – that is, neither married nor living with a partner. This share is up sharply from 29% in 1990. Men are now more likely than women to be unpartnered, which wasn’t the case 30 years ago.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2024/11/family-househ...
> About 39% of U.S. family households this year included the householder’s children under 18, according to new U.S. Census Bureau estimates.
https://www.voronoiapp.com/demographics/Over-Half-of-Househo... (draw your attention to the shrinking yellow “married parent” cohort, 17.9%)
TLDR A majority of US households don’t have kids, and only 18% are households with married parents.
(Aggressively data driven; "May the odds be ever in your favor")
Edit: I never felt this subthread was anything other than the polite exchange of data and thoughts, and I hope you felt the same way too.
But often a positive impact. I would think more often than not the positive outweighs the negative, but not for everybody.
Secondly, if people hadn’t rose tinted glasses, we’d have a massive drop in fertility, I am pretty sure. The facts of parenthood are not very attractive. The nom quantifiable intangible stuff makes it worth it, but those are very difficult to grasp in theory. The negative sides on the other hand are very easy to grasp…
> The facts of parenthood are not very attractive.
Yes, exactly, the burden is to explain this to people who don't know so they can make an informed choice.
[1] https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37300184 (citations)
[3] https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-...
[4] https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/newsroom/news-release...
[5] https://www.vox.com/23971366/declining-birth-rate-fertility-...
But that’s a one sided information flow. You can quantify how much money a kid costs. You can’t quantify what it brings to you. Hence this information would be by essence very partial…
You can’t know until you’ve already walked through the one-way door. What about all of that aggregate regret and suffering for those who didn’t want, or don’t want after kids are here?
Humanity isn’t going to end because we empower people who don’t want kids to not have them, although the population will compress over the next 200 years (from 10B downward). There will always be parents who really want to be parents, as well as parents who thought they wanted to be but regret it.
For those who want to eat the glass, we salute you. Options for everyone else.
As a parent of 6.9 children, parenting is a huge commitment. But I have lived my entire life since 27 raising children, so to me it’s life as usual. A key factor is making time for your relationship and maintaining intimacy. Intimacy in its many forms is sooo foundational, anyone that ignores or neglects it is likely asking for serious challenges down the road.
I'm on the fence about this topic and hearing from someone who has had more than 2 might help generalise how having a kid could be.
For me, it feels like one of the few things I've experienced in life on which I won't have much control over after the first decision (of having a kid).
Almost everything else is me deciding every day to do or not do something. This is different.
You know how when you're single and making money hand over fist and you have a lot of money (compared to you as a teen), and it's awesome? And then you first get married, together you're pretty poor but you're having tons of sex, and it's a different kind of awesome? And then you have children, and you're sleep deprived and sex is kind of weird and the baby is pooping on stuff, but you see your own child--and again, it's a different kind of awesome.
I’m kind of an extreme example because I took the job to heart and designed a whole new life around providing the best developmental foundation for my children I could figure out how to.
For us,that was choosing to pivot from our comfortable cntracting business into a life intentionally filled with challenges , situations, hardships, triumphs, and struggles that we would overcome as a family.
It was way outside of my comfort zone, to be sure, but the point was to give them actual life experience and skills so that when they became adults they would be as prepared as possible to manage situations, overcome obstacles, and manage risk.
It was often uncomfortable but rewarding beyond measure.
I'm interested in doing something like world schooling and this sounds it might be related.
From an early age, aside from their siblings, they interacted primarily with adults in their world, often from different cultures and speaking different languages, and often in situations where the stakes were high (intrinsic danger imposed by the natural environment and classical physics) .
They learned to be a cohesive team, to handle responsibility within the range of their understanding, to seek and accept council, and to ignore immature behavior when it pops up in inappropriate times.
This sometimes rugged beginning has served them quite well in their lives.
After traveling from Alaska to Oregon , we traded in the cargo trailer for a camper trailer because camping was a pain in the “@&. We shipped our tools and supplies from the cargo trailer to a boatyard in Florida.
When we got to the boatyard, we spent the next two years living in our camper as we rebuilt a 50foot steel schooner.
We didn’t have much cash, so we did all of the work ourselves and salvaged steel from where we could find it.
We became great customers of the metal recyclers in the area lol.
The most expensive thing was buying the epoxy based paint and the bottom paint, which cost almost as much as we paid for the boat. (And the 500 dollars a month for the boatyard)
Other than that , thousands of grinding disks and maybe 20 harbor freight grinders lol.we found they would last through 4 or 5 brush replacements if you didn’t burn up the armatures by using brushes to the point of failure.
We spent the next few years sailing the east coast and the Caribbean, central and northern South America. We would salvage contaminated fuel and filter it and treat itfor our auxiliary engine and generator, getting paid for removing the expired diesel, and I did engine and electrical repair on other boats.
It wasn’t a comfortable life, but it was full of opportunities to teach things about life, lots of skills, and independent thinking and action. Probably the most important lessons were in risk tolerance and risk management. It’s easy to be overly risk averse in the modern world, or to limit your risk taking to avocational pursuits.
I was happy to swallow the anchor when it was time for the kids to start building their social structures and to get started in more advanced levels of education.
It was hard, and an enormous sacrifice for more than a decade, but I wouldn’t trade that experience for my kids for anything else that we could have realistically managed.
The kids grew up in an adult world, but there were lots of other boat kids, and we often stopped for months at a time. When we would be in a place for more than a month or two, the kids would enroll in local schools, which we treated like social studies/ language class, managing primary curriculum on the boat.
Anyway, I’m really happy with the results. They’re all grown and starting families of their own now, and it’s been obvious that their upbringing was key in their many successes.
They refer to it as their “cheat code” because they basically aren’t deterred by anything that they have to learn or become proficient in, and they know from experience that they can do anything they reasonably decide to do.
They have all built houses (as in personally built them) and have are finding their way in software, finance, politics, farming, robotics, and whatever else is interesting to them… basically living what most would describe as a privileged life despite having come from very modest means.
"Oh you're depressed and suffer from making executive decisions. Why don't you just make a decision and fix this?! You know therapists exist right!? Fuck you're so fucking dumb, you piece of shit. Just be happy, it's not that hard!"
Depression is a cluster of symptoms, for all intents and purposes. There is some evidence that SSRIs help these symptoms, but direct causal seratonin deficiency hypotheses have yet to be supported.
There's scant evidence that modern non-pharmaceutical therapeutic interventions (with the exception of niche interventions like CBT) are even effective, yet the advice "go to therapy" gets tossed around constantly as if it's Science(tm) with a capital S.
You can claim that the "depression is just a matter of perspective bro" is an ignorant take, but according to the literature, "depression is a chemical imbalance", or any other definitive "depression is X" claim is equally ignorant. We still don't really know. We're still searching.
And that’s not even counting the cases where your children can’t stand you, if not estranged and outright hate you. Which if you read suggestions that ever dare to suggest that you can indeed live with your parents beyond the age of 18, seems to happen quite often too.
The first scenario is the good ending, and would definitely be worth the effort of raising children.
The second ending? I think I’d rather just not have kids at all if that’s my fate.