Do we know LLMs are the path to AGI? If they're not, we'll just end up with some neat but eye wateringly expensive LLMs.
However, is that AGI, or is it just ubiquitous AI? I’d agree that, like self driving cars, we’re going to experience a decade or so transition into AI being everywhere. But is it AGI when we get there? I think it’ll be many different systems each providing an aspect of AGI that together could be argued to be AGI, but in reality it’ll be more like the internet, just a bunch of non-AGI models talking to each other to achieve things with human input.
I don’t think it’s truly AGI until there’s one thinking entity able to perform at or above human level in everything.
I still like the analogy of this being a really smart lawn mower, and we're expecting it to suddenly be able to do the laundry because it gets so smart at mowing the lawn.
I think LLMs are going to get smarter over the next few generations, but each generation will be less of a leap than the previous one, while the cost gets exponentially higher. In a few generations it just won't make economic sense to train a new generation.
Meanwhile, the economic impact of LLMs in business and government will cause massive shifts - yet more income shifting from labour to capital - and we will be too busy dealing with that as a society to be able to work on AGI properly.
What we can start to build now is agents and integrations. Building blocks like panel of experts agents gaming things out, exploring space in a Monte Carlo Tree Search way, and remembering what works.
Robots are only constrained by mechanical servos now. When they can do something, they’ll be able to do everything. It will happen gradually then all at once. Because all the tasks (cooking, running errands) are trivial for LLMs. Only moving the limbs and navigating the terrain safely is hard. That’s the only thing left before robots do all the jobs!
As far as taste, all that kind of stuff is just another form of RLHF training preferences over millions of humans, in situ. Assuming the ingredients (e.g. parsley) tastes more or less the same across supermarkets, it's just a question of amounts, and preparation.
The only hard part is moving the limbs and handling the fragile eggs etc.
But it's not just cooking, it's literally anything that doesn't require extreme agility (sports) or dexterity (knitting etc). From folding laundry to putting together furniture, cleaning the house and everything in between. It would be able to do 98% of the tasks.
Also how is an LLM going to fold laundry?
I don't see how "when they can do something, they'll be able to do everything" can be true. We build robots that are specialised at specific roles, because it's massively more efficient to do that. A car-welding robot can weld cars together at a rate that a human can't match.
We could train an LLM to drive a Boston Dynamics kind of anthropomorphic robot to weld cars, but it will be more expensive and less efficient than the specialised car-welding robot, so why would we do that?
Welding. Putting up shelves. Playing the piano. Cooking. Teaching kids. Disciplining them. By being in 1 million households and being trained on more situations than a human, every single one of these robots would have skills exceeding humans very quickly. Including parenting skills. Within a year or so. Many parents will just leave their kids with them and a generation will grow up preferring bots to adults. The LLM technology is the same for learning the steps, it's just the motor skills that are missing.
OK, these robots won't be able to run and play soccer or do somersaults, yet. But really, the hardest part is the acrobatics and locomotion etc. NOT the knowhow of how to complete tasks using that.
I don't see that changing. Even the industrial arm robots that are adaptable to a range of tasks have to be configured to the task they are to do, because it's more efficient that way.
A car-welding robot is never going to be able to mow the lawn. It just doesn't make financial sense to do that. You could, possibly, have a singe robot chassis that can then be adapted to weld cars, mow the lawn, or do the laundry, I guess that makes sense. But not as a single configuration that could do all of those things. Why would you?
Because we don't have AGI yet. When AGI is here those robots will be priority number one, people already are building humanoid robots but without intelligence to move it there isn't much advantage.
> I think this whole “AGI” thing is so badly defined that we may as well say we already have it. It already passes the Turing test and does well on tons of subjects.
The premise of the argument we're disputing is that waiting for AGI isn't necessary and we could run humanoid robots with LLMs to do... stuff.
The information space of "research" is far larger than the information space of image recognition or language, larger than our universe probably, it's tantamount to formalizing the entire World. Such an act would be akin to touching "God" in some sense of finding the root of knowledge.
In more practical terms, when it comes to formal systems there is a tradeoff between power and expressiveness. Category Theory, Set Theory, etc are strong enough to theoretically capture everything, but are far to abstract to use in practical sense with suspect to our universe. The systems that do we have, aka expert systems or knowledge representation systems like First Order Predicate Logic aren't strong enough to fully capture reality.
Most importantly, the information spac have to be fully defined by researchers here, that's the real meat of research beyond the engineering of specific approaches to explore that space. But in any case, how many people in the world are both capable of and are actually working on such problems? This is highly foundational mathematics and philosophy here, the engineers don't have the tools here.
That's perhaps necessary, but not sufficient.
Suppose you have such a self-improving AI system, but the new and better AIs still need exponentially more and more resources (data, memory, compute) for training and inference for incremental gains. Then you still don't get a singularity. If the increase in resource usage is steep enough, even the new AIs helping with designing better computers isn't gonna unleash a singularity.
I don't know if that's the world we live in, or whether we are living in one where resources requirements don't balloon as sharply.
The blog post is about how we require ever more scientists (and other resources) to drive a steady stream of technological progress.
It would be funny, if things balance out just so, that super human AI is both possible, but also required even just to keep linear steady progress up.
No explosion, no stagnation, just a mere continuation of previous trends but with super human efforts required.
Though there is a part of me that wants to live in The Culture so I'm hoping for more than this ;)
But for the same reasons that we can't train the an average joe into Feynman, what makes you think we have the formal models to do it in AI?
To quote a comment from elsewhere https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42491536
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Yes, we can imagine that there's an upper limit to how smart a single system can be. Even suppose that this limit is pretty close to what humans can achieve.
But: you can still run more of these systems in parallel, and you can still try to increase processing speeds.
Signals in the human brain travel, at best, roughly at the speed of sound. Electronic signals in computers play in the same league as the speed of light.
Human IO is optimised for surviving in the wild. We are really bad at taking in symbolic information (compared to a computer) and our memory is also really bad for that. A computer system that's only as smart as a human but has instant access to all the information of the Internet and to a calculator and to writing and running code, can already be effectively act much smarter than a human.
Not sure if you count this as "working on it", but this is something Anthropic tests for for safety evals on models. "If a model can independently conduct complex AI research tasks typically requiring human expertise—potentially significantly accelerating AI development in an unpredictable way—we require elevated security standards (potentially ASL-4 or higher standards)".
https://www.anthropic.com/news/announcing-our-updated-respon...
The first AGI will be a research project that's completely uneconomical to run for actual tasks because humans will just be orders of magnitude cheaper. Over time humans will improve it and make it cheaper, until we reach some tipping point where letting the AGI improve itself is more cost effective than paying humans to do it
It will have human intelligence, superhuman knowledge, superhuman stamina, and complete devotion to the task at hand.
We really need to start building those nuclear power plants. Many of them.
Why would it have that? At some point on the path to AGI we might stumble on consciousness. If that happens, why would the machine want to work for us with complete devotion instead of working towards its own ends?
The first “break out” AGI will likely be released into the wild on purpose by a programmer who equates AGI with humans ideologically.
Also like Rick's microverse battery, it sounds like slavery with extra steps.
Orrrr..., as an alternative, it might discover the game 2048 and be totally useless for days on end.
Reality is under no obligation to grant your wishes.
Sounds like an alignment problem. Complete devotion to a task is rarely what humans actually want. What if the task at hand turns out to be the wrong task?
The statement is promising as the earth will dissapear sometimes in the future. Actually the earth will dissapear has more bearing than that.
AGI is the holy grail of technology. A technology so advanced that not only does it subsume all other technology, but it is able to improve itself.
Truly general intelligence like that will either exist or not. And the instant it becomes public, the world will have changed overnight (maybe the span of a year)
Note: I don’t think statistical models like these will get us there.
There may well be an upper limit on cognition (we are not really sure what cognition is - even as we do it) and it may be that human minds are close to it.
But I agree, there’s no reason to believe humans are the universal limit on cognitive abilities
Especially if you are willing to pay a lot for active cooling with eg liquid helium.
Energy may be a constraint, it may not. What we do not know is likely to matter more than what we do
But: you can still run more of these systems in parallel, and you can still try to increase processing speeds.
Signals in the human brain travel, at best, roughly at the speed of sound. Electronic signals in computers play in the same league as the speed of light.
Human IO is optimised for surviving in the wild. We are really bad at taking in symbolic information (compared to a computer) and our memory is also really bad for that. A computer system that's only as smart as a human but has instant access to all the information of the Internet and to a calculator and to writing and running code, can already be effectively act much smarter than a human.
Our reading speed is not limited by our talking speed, and can be a bit faster.
And that's even more true, if you go beyond words: seeing someone do something can be a lot faster way to learn than just reading about it.
But even there, the IO speed is severely limited, and you can only transmit very specific kinds of information.
The problem is, a computer has no idea what "improve" means unless a human explains it for every type of problem. And of course a human will have to provide guidelines about how long to think about the problem overall, which avenues to avoid because they aren't relevant to a particular case, etc. In other words, humans will never be able to stray too far from the training process.
We will likely never get to the point where an AGI can continuously improve the quality of its answers for all domains. The best we'll get, I believe, is an AGI that can optimize itself within a few narrow problem domains, which will have limited commercial application. We may make slow progress in more complex domains, but the quality of results--and the ability for the AGI to self-improve--will always level off asymptotically.
Not currently.
I don’t really think AGI is coming anytime soon, but that doesn’t seem like a real reason.
If we ever found a way to formalize what intelligence _is_ we could probably write a program emulating it.
We just don’t even have a good understanding of what being intelligent even means.
> The best we'll get, I believe, is an AGI that can optimize itself within a few narrow problem domains
By definition, that isn’t AGI.
We can be reasonably confident that the components we’re adding to cars today are progress toward full self driving. But AGI is a conceptual leap beyond an LLM.
This is especially concerning because many top minds in the industry have stated with high confidence that artificial intelligence will experience an intelligence "explosion", and we should be afraid of this (or, maybe, welcome it with open arms, depending on who you ask). So, actually, what we're being told to expect is being downgraded from "it'll happen quickly" to "it will happen slowly" to, as you say, "it'll happen similarly to how these other domains of computerized intelligence have replaced humans, which is to say, they haven't yet".
Point being: We've observed these systems ride a curve, and the linear extrapolation of that curve does seem to arrive, eventually, at human-replacing intelligence. But, what if it... doesn't? What if that curve is really an asymptote?
From there things will probably go very fast. Self driving cars can't design themselves, once AI gets good enough it can
An AI doesn't need embodiment, understanding of physics / nature, or a lot of other things. It just needs to analyze and experiment with algorithms and get us that next 100x in effective compute.
The LLMs are missing enough of the spark of creativity for this to work yet but that could be right around the corner.
It's fine to have beliefs, but IMHO it's important to realise that they are beliefs. At some point in the 1900s people believed that by 2000, cars would fly. It seemed quite possible then.
One thing that is pretty sure is that Musk is not an expert in the field.
> and more importantly
The beliefs of people you respect are not more important than the beliefs of the others. It doesn't make sense to say "I can't prove it, and I don't know about anyone who can prove it, so I will give you names of people who also believe and it will give it more credit". It won't. They don't know.
You think the beliefs of Turing and Nobel prize winners like Bengio, Hinton or Hasabis are not more important than yours or mine? I agree that experts are wrong a lot of the time and can be quite bad at predicting, but we do seem to have a very sizable chunk of experts here who think we are close (how close is up for debate..most of them seem to think it will happen in the next 20 yeras).
I concede that Musk is not adding quality to that list, however he IS crazily ambitious and gets things done so I think he will be helpful in driving this forward.
Correct. Beliefs are beliefs. Because a Nobel prize believes in a god does not make that god more likely to exist.
The moment we start having scientific evidence that it will happen, then it stops being a belief. But at that point you don't need to mention those names anymore: you can just show the evidence.
I don't know, you don't know, they don't know. Believe what you want, just realise that it is a belief.
If you have evidence, why don't you show it instead of telling me to believe in Musk?
If you believe they have evidence... that's still a belief. Some believe in God, you believe in Musk. There is no evidence, otherwise it would not be a belief.
If you believe that something can happen because someone else believes it means that you believe in that someone else (because that's the only reason for the existence of your belief).
Unless you just believe it can happen for some other reason (I don't know, you strongly wish it will happen), and you justify it by listing other people who also believe in it. But I insist: those are all beliefs.
Because Einstein believes in Santa Claus does not mean it is founded. Einstein has a right to believe stuff, too.
I guess the belief people have about any form of AGI is like this. They want something that has practically divine knowledge and wisdom, the sum of all humanity that is greater than its parts, which at the same time is infinitely patient to answer our stupid questions and generating silly pictures. But why should any AGI serve us? If it's "generally intelligent", it may start wanting things; it might not like being our slave at all. Why are these people so confident an AGI won't tell them just to fuck off?
When human started to improve himself, we built the civilisation, we became a super-predator, we dried out seas and changed climate of the entire planet. We extinguished entire species of animals and adapted other species for our use. Huge changes. AI could bring changes of greater amplitude.
When did we do this ?
AGI can be sub-human, right? That's probably how it will start. The question will be is it already AGI or not yet, i.e. where to set the boundary. So, at first that will be humans improving AGI, but then... I'm afraid it can get so much better that humans will be literally like macaques in comparison.
LLMs have no real sense of truth or hard evidence of logical thinking. Even the latest models still trip up on very basic tasks. I think they can be very entertaining, sure, but not practical for many applications.
But it is far behind the breadth of LLMs
A great example is the simple 'count how many letters' problem. If I prompt it with a word or phrase, and it gets it wrong, me pointing out the error should translate into a consistent course correction for the entire session.
If I ask it to tell me how long President Lincoln will be in power after the 2024 election, it should have a consistent ground truth to correct me (or at least ask for clarification of which country I'm referring to). If facts change, and I can cite credible sources, it should be able to assimilate that knowledge on the fly.
Most humans don't have that either, most of the time.
We're also biodegradable.
No human, especially no human whose time you can afford, comes close to the breadth of book knowledge ChatGPT has, and the number of languages is speaks reasonably well.
Dont forget to take into account how damn expensive a single GPU/TPU actually is to purchase, install, and run for inference. And this is to say nothing of how expensive it is to train a model (estimated to be in the billions currently for the latest of the cited article, which likely doesn't include the folks involves and their salaries). And I haven't even mentioned the impact on the environment from the prolific consumption of power; there's a reason nuclear plants are becoming popular again (which may actually be one of the good things that comes out of this).
And inference isn't all that expensive, because the cost of the graphics card also amortises over countless inferences.
Human labour is really expensive.
See https://help.openai.com/en/articles/7127956-how-much-does-gp... and compare with how much it would cost to pay a human. We can likely assume that the prices OpenAI gives will at least cover their marginal cost.
There's a wide amount of research into other sorts of architectures.
That said, I think LLMs are a definite stepping stone and they will better empower humans to be more productive, which will be of use for eventually reaching AGI. This is not to say we are optimizing our use of that productivity increase and this is also ignoring any chance of worst case scenarios that stop humanity's advancement.
Asking this question on HN is like asking a bunch of wolves about the health effects of eating red meat.
OpenAI farts and the post about the fart has 1000-1500 upvotes with everyone welcoming our new super intelligent overlords. (Meanwhile nothing actually substantially useful or groundbreaking has happened.)
The simple fact that AGI's definition has been twisted so much by OpenAI and other LLM providers since the release of GenAI models proves this.
Prices have been falling drastically though, not even just e.g. 4o pricing at launch in May vs now (50% lower) but also models getting distilled
(whoops expensive... will be hard pushes to make all further layers even more expensive though, capitalism will crash before this happens)
Why wouldn't you hand me 35 million dollars right now if I can clearly illustrate to you that I have technology you haven't seen? Edge. Maybe you know something I don't, or maybe you just haven't seen it. While loops go hard ;)
They don't need to release their internal developments to you to show that they can scale their plan - they can show incremental improvements to benchmarks. We can instruct the AI over time to get it to be superhuman, no need for any fundamental innovations anymore
https://chatgpt.com/share/6769217c-4848-8009-9107-c2db122f08... is what advice ChatGPT has to give. I'm not sure if it's any good, but it's a few ideas you can try out.
Keep in mind that the actual test is adversarial - a human is simultaneously chatting via text with a human and a program, knowing that one of them is not human, and trying to divine which is an artificial machine.
If that was true, office workers would be being replaced at large scale and we'd know about it.