One way to fight loneliness: Germans call it a Stammtisch
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My friends from there, would go to their friends' ice cream parlour, grab some coffees and a beer at 8 PM. For the next four hours, they would do nothing but tell funny stories and laugh until they couldn't laugh any more. These guys literally spent 4 hours laughing together.
They did this the next day, and the next, and many more until I had to reluctantly go back to the airport and fly back to the PNW.
Nothing even remotely like this has happened since last going back. Every time I think back to it, it seems like some impossible other reality.
It probably means Pacific Northwest.
Which is to say the technical definition doesn’t conform with most people’s experience because relatively few people know of Crescent City.
[1] Eurika is in Humboldt County and Humboldt County is not the PNW, it is Humboldt County.
on the pacific coast, and north relative to... the earlier european settlements, i guess?
that's simply not what the phrase "pacific northwest" means. it's "the northwest" (of the U.S. in this case), modified by the word "pacific".
It’s giving me Baader-Meinhof phenomenon vibes.
Anyway, for the benefit of non-Americans, the “PNW” is basically Seattle and Portland, and it’s mostly like California but with winters.
At first I thought it might be some part of Papua New Guinea
Edit: I guess that doesn't disqualify this person from picking up US lingo, but thinking about it further, someone who didn't grow up in the US might be more likely to use regional abbreviations in general contexts.
Or maybe that’s my best interpretation. As it’s also just faster to type PNW than Pacific Northwest and someone who lives there must need to type it quite a bit.
But either way, HN is a community and many people value efficiency and, more specifically, code systems for efficient communication.
aka jargon or lingo meant to exclude outsiders. Not nice.
Would you complain if the backgammon club doesn’t play polo? Is that excluding polo players?
Also phrases. "If I recall correctly", "In other words", and all eight different slightly different variations like AFAICT... like what.
(room full of programmers. apparently none of them using any high tech like abbreviation expanders)
My favorite is IANAL because of how ungodly it looks.
This seems to be a very American thing - using acronyms that is American only but then that's what HN must be - mostly American in terms of members :)
It's really like a different reality.
Coffee before work? Sure thing. Another coffee after work? Absolutely. Drinks in the evening? Definitely.
The thought of not seeing your friends for a month or longer is just absurd over there. If you don't see them regularly they're not your friends. The whole culture is built around spending time with people, and I only realized that after I left.
I enjoy living in the US, but man, I do miss having such a social life.
Another personal example - my sister is highly educated, has two PhD and I consider her the smartest person I know. Years ago we were discussing something and I mentioned that one of my dear friends is seeing a psychiatrist. My sister scoffed... And I was taken aback to say the least. How can someone that smart and that educated dismiss someone who is basically a Doctor and spent years educating themselves in this field. After talking through it I realized that if you have robust social life, myriad of friends, different friends to talk to about different things (as well as family) you just might not need a psychiatrist to talk to... Just an entirely different kind of life/existence...
Well, if you’re ever in Arizona, let’s grab a coffee and talk about the old country.
I feel like very few people in America could afford this in the places the vast majority of the population lives, especially multiple days per week. Even a couple hours of hanging out at a commercial establishment seems like it would cost $20, and many are designed for higher turnover so that you aren’t sitting there for 4 hours while nursing a couple coffees.
Not only are land/rent costs high in the places central to where people can meet, but labor costs at 8PM to 12AM are high too.
Of course you can get it 5x cheaper in the supermarket, but the same is true in the US.
In essence it is not unlike a British club. Not much help against loneliness if you are not deeply integrated in the community already and therefore likely not very lonely to begin with.
The less romantic way to see it, is that it is a hundreds of years old customer loyalty program. Regulars get a guaranteed seat and other perks like artfully crafted beer kegs with their names.
Unfortunately my experience (in eastern Germany, maybe it's not universal) you tend to meet lot's of broken and fucked up people in bars and very little normal ones. At least I seem to have a talent to attract assholes and fascists that tell me their world view after a few beer. But this depends on the bar and the area. It's not all happy happy live.
It's all a complete confusion. My comment has little to do with your comment. It's two completely separate things.
Generally yes, a Stammtisch is in theory the exact opposite of an open "just drop in and join" culture that might be the idea of a normal pub.
However, the term has also been coopted for low-friction, introductory meetups of larger organizations, fan communities, organized subcultures, etc. (Those can be anything from political parties to hobby groups to the local furry community)
They still have some formalism - you're expected to go there if you 're either already a regular or have a specific interest to meet people from the organization/subculture/etc; many ask you to register in advance - but they do have the explicit purpose of "onboarding" newbies and serving as "entry points" into larger communities.
So I think those kinds of organized "Stammtische" can be effective in combatting loneliness, but more as a tool to bring people into organized communities and less as a thing of its own.
I know financially it would never make sense, but having a local pub with extremely cheap membership ($5/month) with discounts to the neighbourhood residents (maybe based on postal code on your ID?) would do wonders to me. Use that tiny bit of cash to host small events, advertise it as the meeting place for anyone who wants to come, be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... I can only dream!
I personally know people who avoid specific bars because specific patrons have been jerks, and they’re making others uncomfortable. Some sort of simple membership could keep them out.
What is there to fund? You just have to advertise a bit a meetup in some social medias and choose a place.
During the actual event, you aren't the one serving alcohol, there is nothing to be liable with and people are free to order non alcohol drinks.
It is just random people meeting at a bar.
As it was mentioned in the comments, it usually boils down to regulation and financial problems to have a place like that, unless you've been grandfathered in.
Anyone that has an option to earn good W-2 income would need a huge carrot to incentivize them to forego that low liability lifestyle and instead opt to start their own business, especially one where you invite people into your premises.
Until you are making good money (and this can take 10+ years) and can afford lawyers, you are at the mercy of the legal system.
I've traveled to the Northeast US a fair bit and am so surprised at how many drinking establishments those towns can support (or not, if the bars are in decline).
Take Manayunk, a town that got amalgamated into present day Philadelphia. It's on a commuter rail line that leads to Center City. A pretty little town with humble homes on small roads nearby. The name of the town means "the place to drink" in the Lenape language. You couldn't design a more idyllic small-town so close to a heavily urbanized area, in my opinion. But I digress.
While walking around with a tomato pie I was trying to finish before taking the train downtown, I counted about 12 bars full of who looked to be regulars, all on a weeknight. laughs a plenty, no banging club music. just the sound of life from townsfolk who probably go back a few generations at least.
in contrast, the PNW has always had transient worker populations, but even homeless people here often exude friendliness and a willingness to talk to strangers. it may be because they rely more on networks of goodwill than those with salaries and lease agreements. it may be because their living quarters are closer together, whether in the shelter or on the street. whatever the reason, there is a noticable dearth of that human connection with my life in the PNW, and it's such a recurring point of conversation that the horse has now been beaten to a pulp.
the way you long for the pub culture of the Northeast US is all too familiar to me. it's my Disneyland, because it's basically a fantasy when our cities are designed the way they are.
I've had incredible nights through just going to the same bar a couple of times during my travels, and people all around the world made me feel welcome. Yet here? No such thing, yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere.
> yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere
But how hard it is to just tell a person you vaguely know (like neighbors or people who you know from work or venues) "I feel a bit lonely, wanna do something?".. we always have to have a "better" reason than just that. I wonder how many people chat with people they bump into, and then both go home lonely wishing they had a "good reason" to hang out with that other person, like in some weird ass prisoner's dilemma where the punishment is losing face. Probably a lot. But we hear so much about how people are more lonely and isolated, it shouldn't be that embarrassing admit being to be one of those who aren't quite content with their social connections.
If in doubt, I'd suggest finding something to volunteer or help out with. You never have to justify helping out with something where help is needed -- that is, nobody is going to ask if you're not really just there because you're lonely -- and you tend to run into social people. And even when it doesn't spark a friendship it's usually time well spent, and in the rare cases where it's not, just don't go to that particular thing again.
i think it helps to phrase it differently. don't say "i am lonely", say, "i work alone and i like to sozialize". or "i am a very social person and i don't get enough interaction at work". to a coworker you could say: " i enjoy talking to you, want to hang out after work" or something like that.
i agree that "i am lonely" potentially comes across as needy, so i would focus on the general positive aspects of socializing.
i should note that i didn't have any opportunity to apply these myself but i was occasionally on the receiving side being invited to join others without any specific reason other than hanging out together. which is actually another approach. look for existing groups and see if you can join them
Though regarding membership - maybe check out an Elks club?
What's Elks club? My googling only led me to something in New Westminster, if that's the thing you're talking about.
He means the elks fraternal club or other similar clubs. There used to be a bunch of these clubs for getting together often with secret or fake mystic symbols like the Freemasons. Many of them started charities and volunteer activities but are also a club you can identify with (like a sports fandom) and often drink with other members at their lodge building.
And since its a national organization with local chapters I think you could probably join a diferent chapter after you move. Sure your friends won't be there but being at the same meetings/drinking together maybe volunteering together and having the fraternal order as part of your shared identity might make making new friends easier.
Of course since most of these orgs are old and were started by old white dudes many used to be male only and ban minorities (although most probably haven't in decades that history may dissuade many). Also many are dying out/largely full of seniors although I found this article which claims some recent growth due to people seeking third places and friendship. Also note I have never been a member of any of these and may have gotten some things wrong.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/new-world-orders
> But it’s also part of a national phenomenon: For the first time in 35 years, the Elks are growing. Average member age is down from 69 to 61. Membership is exploding in San Francisco, the Florida Keys, North Carolina, and dozens of other areas, including the bedroom communities of New Jersey, where Eli Manning was just voted to membership. Each of those lodges has a story of where that growth is coming from, yet the impulse remains constant: seeking connections, with people who are not necessarily like them, in dusty old buildings with $2 drafts and animal heads hanging over the doorway.
... > The Elks and similar fraternal organizations were part of a broad trend of “joining” and civic engagement that started in the 1880s, dropped off during the Great Depression, and surged following World War II. “Fraternal organizations,” writes historian Robert D. Putnam, “represented a reaction against the individualism and anomie of this era of rapid social change, asylum from a disordered and uncertain world.” Many provided “material benefits” like life and health insurance, as well as “social solidarity and ritual”; by 1910, more than one-third of adult males over the age of 19 were a member of at least one.
>Some, like the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Kiwanis, and the Lions, were more explicitly business-oriented; others, like the Odd Fellows, were more invested in providing care for their members; while the Black Elks, Black Moose, and dozens of others developed similarly robust organizations segregated from their white counterparts. The Elks were officially desegregated in 1973, but black members were routinely denied membership through the 1980s. Today, most lodges have diversified: While many, especially in rural areas, remain largely white, there are dozens of clubs whose membership is almost entirely black; in Charlottesville, Virginia, the Elks Club has become “the only real place for black folks to go.”
...
> The specific lore of the early Elks has filled books, but the bare facts, as presented during a recent Ballard new member orientation, are easier: “Some actors wanted to drink on Sundays, which wasn’t allowed at the time, so they put together a private club so they could succeed at that. Gradually that group started doing more with charity, and a lot more with veterans, but it was pretty much a men’s organization.”
> The group voted to name itself the Elks, narrowly defeating the Buffaloes, and borrowed much of its ritual from the Freemasons, then one of the largest organizations in the country. By 1910, Elks done away with almost all of the ritual — including secret handshakes and passwords — and settled into the function they held for much of the 20th century: a group of (white) men, initiated only upon recommendation from another member of the lodge, who paid yearly dues, enjoyed lavish facilities built with those dues, and donated time and money to local, state, and national charities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Orde...
They have "lodges" (clubs) which I would assume are quite variable but many have bars in them. They do a lot of community-service work.
I went to an event in an Elks Lodge a long time ago, I think it was Thanksgiving. My grandfather was an Elk. (Yes, that sounds funny if you don't know who the Elks are.) I didn't see the bar, if there was one, but the atmosphere was really nice: older folks but very outgoing and friendly.
Membership criteria, from their home page:
* Be at least 21 years of age.
* Believe in God.
* Be a citizen of the United States who pledges allegiance to and salutes the American Flag.
* Be of good character.
If you meet these criteria I think it'd be worth looking into a membership, even if just as a hedge against loneliness in case things don't work out as you planned.
Oh, and I see the Canadians have their own version, with a more modern website:
The citizenship requirement is asinine (immigrants are great at conversation, almost by necessity!) and the god thing would be off putting….
note that hanging out and drinking w/out money IS legal, but as soon as you sell a hot dog or a beer, boom now the state has some lawyers for you to talk to and you're 100% blocked until we are satisfied you have done everything we want.
Was in London recently, and my friend dragged me to her watering hole on the first night… made me jealous instantly.
That's the crux of the issue. Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun", which means that everyone has different expectations, and it becomes impossible to organize anything that is actually fun for everyone. Case in point: why work parties are so dry? Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.
A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
I know bartenders who have a customer list that they never serve for various reasons. It’s easier to implement it in a neighbourhood level, as there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding.
> Case in point: why work parties are so dry?
I get what you’re saying, but my work parties have been nothing but dry (and definitely, very far from dry) up until my current job. I just changed a few months ago though, and until I relocate, can’t really experience what they have to offer.
Agreed about the party hosting part though. It’s pretty tough to get some of my friend circles to do something together for the same reason. We can usually muster up for our big traditions though, which I think can be done in a local level too.
Ok but why would I go to places where I need to behave, if I can just drink at home instead, without needing to behave? I've been behaving the entire week already, give me a break.
I understand some people fun is to organise for other folk's fun, that's a generous motivation. But sometimes just behaving/organizing the way you likes it yourself makes other more confortable. Just tell them what food you'll prepare, if smoking inside/window is allowed and at what time you'll be ready. If they're grown up they'll manage to have fun by themselves, they come to see you not for your food.
I don't think this is anything new. Back one or two centuries ago there were clubs and societies for people having common interests, social classes and behaviors.
> A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
I think you overthink it. The one who organize is the one who decides. You define a place, people adapts or don't come. Simple as that.
In any group of friends or acquaintance, there are those that comes since the beginning, other who are always late, some who always leave early, some who are heavy smokers and spend all their time smoking outside, others who can't handle the smoke and stay inside and some who adapt and spend time in both area. Some people who always disappear for a while. In that group, some people barely spend time together. That is fine, you don't have to be the all of us together from start to finish.
I now live in suburb of Paris, there's probably more muslims that in the average French city (but they're still a strict minority) but no coffee place neither an alcool one and definitely not collective picnics at night.
Also I agree with everything parent said, we always go out, we even have trips with the 2-3 families and sometimes friends join as well.
Chess and Soccor are huge in Iran, you see kids running around in the street playing all the time and in the evening we have “parties” where people come to share food and then go out.
It’s very different from the West, I don’t even know what western nations would look like with that setup, it can get chaotic and there are many regulations that prevent these anyway like making noise outside after dark or kids being lowed to run in the streets with cars passing; not to mention the subtlies of not invading people’s personal spaces or coming off as a “creep” / annoying person here. In Iran no one cares and you just chat with anyone..
As a probably permanent expat with kids, I've been looking for some sort of more social and family oriented culture to raise them, and stuff like that sounds amazing. If we could just pick and choose the parts that each culture excels at!
Though with Alireza I was referring to Alireza Firouzja - a top 10 chess player in the world who also ended up in France like the earlier poster.
Can’t find Chez Amel, is it Chez Adel? Looks like an unpretentious casual and cosy bar, exactly my type thanks!
Financially, the secret to the old fraternal and veterans halls was that they were built when it was (relatively) cheap & easy to build in America. And their membership was dedicated enough to pay for that, then do most of the work of running the place.
These days...a few such place and organizations persist. But mostly, relentless capitalism has optimized away American's willingness to undertake any activity which fails to enrich Wall Street.
I would bet it is simply an emergent phenomenon of individual interests coalescing. Everyone wants commercial establishments near them, but not next to them.
Same as having lots of space for yourself, but also living near everything.
In a place with residential zoning you can't just build a pub without getting an exception to that zoning approved.
So many Americans living in residential suburban houses have to get in their car and drive 5-20 minutes to get to some sort of commercial center, strip mall, shopping area, etc. that has stores, bars, and restaurants.
There is starting to be a major pushback on this as people realize that having nice towns (not even necessarily cities) with dense mixed-use centers of walkable apartments, townhouses, shops, restaurants, bars, etc. is actually both pleasant and good for business. In the strict separate-zoning model you tend to get more chain establishments and fewer interesting local options because things are spread out and there isn't enough foot traffic in any given place to win over new business.
eg The Last Exit on Brooklyn (near Univ of Wash campus). Just show up. Very diverse clientele. All tables were open (no bogarting open seats). Cribbage, go, chess, boardgames, whatever. Mostly with strangers. There was also regular poetry slams, open-mic, music, whatever.
I've long wondered how to recreate such venues.
Places like Mox are great. https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ I've been many times along with my son's crew (gamers, artists, slackers).
But the qwan is just a bit off.
Why?
Is it because we banned indoor smoking? People used to just hang out and smoke, taking in the vibe. (Gods, as a non-smoker, I loved cigs and espresso and cribbage and talking shit. Not that I'd ever want to allow indoor smoking again...)
Is it because places like Mox require merch sales to remain viable? Alcohol sales are way down, so venues need something.
Any way. As an old, if my local public library served espresso, I'd never leave. Our book club has tried to meet at libraries a few times, but it always sucks. Our libraries are definitely not "third places".
/ramble
From my previous experiences, that culture is still alive in parts of Europe, Hong Kong, Japan and so on. But it just doesn't work here...
My guess is the alcohol prices, as convincing yourself that paying $13 for a drink + tip, is not a good idea if you do it a couple of times a week. Ideally, you'd want people without money to be able to afford it as well, as they tend to be the "culture makers" because of the time and availability. Alas, it's hard to make that happen in current economy.
Oh well, we're stuck in this weird predicament, i guess.
I moved up here 6 months ago, and it's been a great group of people to hang out with. The conversations are tech/tech-adjacent for the most part, but I've also spent hours chatting about Magic The Gathering, Seattle Public Transit, and Neal Stephenson. I got my HushCon invite just from showing up regularly enough that people recognized me.
I actually found out about this because of another meetup on Thursdays: Black Lodge Research up in Redmond has an open night from 7:00 pm onwards. Great little makerspace, and a welcoming community. But it's definitely a schlep up there, especially after a workday so I haven't been back in a couple of months.
I'm not a big drinker, but it's nice to have a constant event on Thursday evenings that I can look forward to having a beer or two at (I actually have a custom drink that I came up with Will called "Pondwater" -- building up some lore like that is fun and is a sign of setting down some roots). I'd say Harry's is my "local bar" since I live about a 15 minute walk away. On the note of social drinking, there's a few sober people who come as well, and there's no compulsion at all to drink alcohol to be a part of the in-group. Hope I see you there sometime and I'd be happy to introduce you to the crowd; look for the Indian guy :)
A socially accepted central meeting place where people can go and talk to each other. Of course also to eat and drink.
It's the social glue there and has a very very old history there.
Irish people are quite famous for how not lonely they are, so much so that the tiny island only has 2 or 3 subreddits dedicated to making friends and meeting people.
I found a culture that is definitely different in some ways but just as familiar in most ways. Just as I do in Wales and Scotland.
For example we all share a strange obsession with the weather. Obviously we don't really but the standard rules of chatting about the weather enables an easy start and disengagement from a social encounter. We also suffer from an inability to stop saying goodbye ...
Pub culture as a whole is changing massively. I remember when Ireland banned fags in pubs (a fag is a cigarette). I used to smoke and found it a bit odd having to go outside. Then the UK followed suit. With hindsight, I don't miss quite a lot of the "good old days" of smoke filled rooms that even a tabber's eyes would nearly be bleeding. Brown stained wooden chairs with plum or mustard upholstery and worryingly sticky floors and tables.
I remember chatting to a landlord of my local at the time around 1998. The boozer was called the Globe Trotters (Yeovil, Somerset, UK). It was formerly a cider house called the Globe and now its a modern effort called ... the Globe and Crown. The landlord described how he had to get rid of the "old boys" who would sit in the corner and quietly piss themselves whilst talking bollocks.
Anyway, I'm not sure what pub culture is these days. It probably died of COPD a few years ago.
Despite all that, I do think that the Stammtisch ideal is alive and well in our very odd corner of Western Europe. We just don't give it a name. Perhaps we should. The nearest thing I can think of is pub sports - darts, pool, snooker etc.
I've been playing pool badly for a team for a good 25 years now.
I've been to Ireland many times. So cannot really confirm this.
After a night in a pub I know everyone in the town. Or almost.
EDIT: Super Tipp, danke. Habe gleich zwei Treffpunkte in der Nähe gefunden und werde diese im neuen Jahr besuchen.
I used to hear this quite a bit from people who work here, as the article hints at we're a country of clubs and associations, most of them free. Be it chess, football, poetry slams, the church choir, the local CCC given that you're on HN, etc. Most unis will let you sit in for free as well. I also wouldn't worry about age. We're not really that age conscious, very few people I know care if they're around people twice their age.
People tend to bash their head in trying to make friends at work but it's probably the worst country to do this, we just work 9 to 5 and go home.
https://www.hamburgergitarrenforum.de/ https://gitarrehamburg.de/
The first one event mentions regular meetings but not whether they are still happening. I would suggest reaching out to the Vorstand and asking if they know where to look for a jam, they excplicitly write that they see themselves as a networking platform for guitarists in Hamburg.
And as a German I would like to echo what others said about clubs in germany: I have met half of my friendgroup and my long-term partner in a Verein. Nearly every person I know is or was involved in one. Its not always easy to find the right one for you, but I believe it is the most straightforward way to expand ones social circle in Germany.
Good tip on CCC too from previous poster, they’re not far from me, they’re near to stuff I know in Altona, I will grab a mask and head to an Open Chaos night. I passed my B1 earlier this year so my German sucks less than it used to but is still terrible.
This year has honestly speaking been terrible, but all I can try to do is either go back home or find some people to talk to here. You gotta work with what you’ve got.
Edit: Looks like it's completely sold out. Maybe next year?
Thanks for the intel, definitely one for next year!
For my part, I find the city tiny as I can cycle to the other side in less than forty minutes, which I love, it’s so fast to get around. I’ve been to a few non-tech meetups but they are short and fleeting and quite insubstantial. Still, here we are, send me an email/dm if you want to connect for a cup of tea somewhere equally inconvenient in the Mitte, like one of those Treffpunkts!
there recently was post about a site for hn readers to share their location to enable meetups: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42410582
quick advice, i would remove the email address from you post while you still can edit it, and instead point to your profile where you can remove or change the email address later if need be.
Too late, but it's fine. I have been posting my email address publicly for a while and not much spam.
> i used to live in hamburg, i would totally join up if i was there.
Cool!
> there recently was post about a site for hn readers to share their location to enable meetups: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42410582
Yes, I have seen that and added myself to that map. Also, I'm meeting up with somebody from there tomorrow, actually =P
It's a swedish game where you take zones with GPS irl. There aren't many german turfers yet but the ones around seems very social. Chat in game and on Discord, starting to organize meetups too. The added benefit is everyone can see where you are and meet up for a chat just there :-)
Lycra optional :)
if language is an issue you can find a translation of the rules of most games online to help you out with learning a more complex game.
Music venues with smaller concerts are way better to get in touch with people.
If we were feeling sociable on a weeknight, we headed to the same pub. There'd usually be one or two others that felt the same, and they'd introduce us to others, and the circle spread.
Go to the pub more than 3 times over a couple of weeks and you'd start to be known as a regular, and introduced to the other regulars. Over time, those random introductions became the core of your social life.
Now, of course, we don't need to do this because we can tell the group chat which bar we're meeting at. I'm not sure it's an improvement.
I've seen a lot of people drinking the modern zero/low alcohol beers (lucky saint maybe?) and it largely just works. They're happy, and get to engage feeling pretty much like normal. Obviously if the goal is to get drunk quickly then it sucks, but observationally you've got a fair few rounds before it appears to be a barrier.
There's a bot that lets you search trains and then creates a channel for the one you select and you meet with others on the same train and play board games or just have a chat.
Feels apt to share in this thread.
We actually interact with each other at other times, during the week, but the Friday dinner is kind of special.
I'm fortunate to be involved in an organization that includes a great deal of interaction with others, but I know that the norm for men my age, is sitting on the recliner, remote in hand.
I'd like to believe that I was one of the more avid members, but waiting alone for up to hours for the next guy to pop up, made me quit too.
Last I heard, only two to three members are left, and its a somewhat odd lunch held around 3-4pm.
But the “glue” that keeps us together, is the organization we’re all members of.
I’m a Christian and have always been so thankful for the rich community and sense of shared values and mission I experience with my church.
Churches provide many of the same benefits. For most of my friends that attend churches, the congregation is more important to them, than the pastor.
[1]: https://www.telegraphindia.com/my-kolkata/places/from-colleg...
I had a weekly drink up for 15yrs and seeing friends 3-4 times a week for dinner and activities. It was 100x better than not but not sufficient to cure the loneliness of not having a life companion.
Of course good relationship > single > bad relationship
It’s really not complicated. You ask the bar owner whether you can have a table at the bar every month, and how many people will come, that’s it. If you do it Monday-Thursday it’s better for them, because the bar will be emptier and they will know how many waiters to call in. They might even make drinks cheaper for you.
The other meaning is high alcohol consumption and extreme populist opinions. That's the Stammtisch of the pub.
I’m gradually finding that my mission in life may be to fight the widespread atomization we all feel by any means necessary.
Hey! I'm in the same boat, shoot me an email!
The flag thing sounds like a very German thing to do. Maybe that's why German tourists are notorious for using towels to try to reserve chairs in tourist resorts the world over? Like draping a flag over a Stammstuhl.
Typing this I get a bit sad that these communities are missing nowadays and didn't really made it into modern life. Hitler used a lot of them for his purposes and after WWII it was just old people is what I think about them nowadays. It's too conservative and traditional for me.
Got a bit off track with the comment, but I was replying to the flag thingy. As a German it makes total sense.
Perhaps the Germans started it, but they are by no means the only nation doing this anymore. They may not even be leading in this discipline anymore. Over 20 years ago, I already observed English people reserving the best poolside loungers with towels before sunrise.
It has done more for my mood in the past few months than anything else. Just sitting and talking and having coffee. As a group. Just men.
I've had the routine to attend one on most Saturdays and Sundays with a group of mates for 15 years straight. It's fun, relaxing and in a way also efficient if you have a large group of friends. A predictable moment where you catch up with everybody.
Then most of us had children, but we continued with a home version of the routine. We meet every Sunday, same time, and we rotate whom is hosting it. I thoroughly enjoy it because this is exactly the age where friendships water down.
And there's a very interesting side effect. This group of old bar mates effectively become extended family to the children of the hosts. They see all of us very regularly, often more than their grandparents or uncles/aunts which they typically have few of anyway.
And it keeps going. As we see these children grow up, we throw opportunities at them. For sports, work, anything.
I suppose it's common sense. When people spend regular time with each other, bonds and networks form. Common sense as it is, the modern age has few institutions to facilitate it.
Adda: The secret to Bengali conviviality - https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20210812-adda-the-secret-...
Friendship and Fraternity: The Cultural Nostalgia of Adda in Modern Bengal by Nabamita Das - https://internationalconference.net/program/detail/215
"It was a Stammtisch" doesn't explain why there was a flag placed on the table other than that maybe it's common for a flag to be part of this kind of gathering group. But still....why? There are plenty of groups that meet regularly. It's unusual to plant a flag like that. Book clubs, bridge game meetups, regular pints with a friend group (that isn't a Stammtisch), Sunday brunch group, etc. None of these kinds of groups plant flags.
If the group's activity is easily visible and distinct from what everyone else is doing, it's not necessary.
Stammtisch can be used like that, but it can also mean the physical table ("Tisch" means table) where a specific group meets. Meaning, in some pubs, a table marked as such is effectively reserved only for this specific group of regulars. I think this is getting rarer, but I still see it from time to time.
I believe it's still done, but it's mostly too old people. In big cities in Germany you will often seen youth that no longer do it.
Actually my wife has much more Stammtisch events with her groups than me. And esp. the chatting is also more intense. In Germany
It must be a different geography/culture thing but if I want to deal with loneliness a bar or a pub is probably the last place I'd go looking for people to spend time with drunk. Hobbies, workshops, sports are the venues that work. For me letter writing seems to work - but very little. Met some friends and if they are from nearby cities or my own city then we kind of make time to meet et cetera. But it's not sustainable.
What this article lists is more like - there is already a group of friends who meet at a reserved table regularly. How does it even begin to work against loneliness? Loneliness IMHO is when you have no one to spend time with or they can't make time or you can't make time.
It comes down to this - you might want to figure out what kind of person you are early in life (as in mid 20s early) and what do you need in life in terms of company and possibly work on possible loneliness later in life - or plan against it - but that doesn't happen, does it? Also, at least in our generation's case, the social scene changed faster than one could cope and the COVID was almost like pulling the rug. Before and after were so different that felt unrecognisable. I have friends who loved the closed world of COVID and couldn't care less about the lack of people who give them their time and want their time, on the other hand there are people like me who are getting more miserable everyday for the lack of it and now wonder whether going for marriage probably would have been a better decision practically and realistically. Then you wonder maybe not.
My fight against it is by keeping very fit, resuming running, resuming reading (as in active reading otherwise it never stopped), get into cinema (again actively - join some film clubs/forums etc), multiple weekly sports (and one daily), and starting gym (which is part of keeping fit of course) et cetera. And the most important - I am still dealing with it - is fighting procrastination. The keeping fit part really helps, it might not seem so. But it does. It helps both physically and mentally.
If someone did a study on loneliness vs fertility rates, it'd probably be a near perfect correlation.
The modern era of Tinder, normalised deviancy, and so on is really setting people up for a very uncomfortable later life. And I say 'later' but it's really the overwhelming majority of your life, especially if you discount your earlier years where we're all just basically retarded.
yes and no. the problem is that most of those other people are parents of my kids classmates, and i can't choose them. unfortunately many of these are the type that i don't want to associate with.
it took me 30 years to really understand what i need in life in terms of company. going by my feelings in my 20s i would have missed the things that actually matter. when i got married i had a long checklist of things that i thought would matter, but later i realized that many of those things didn't matter and some things that did matter were missing.
today i can say that what matters to me first and foremost is absolute support and loyalty and an extreme gentleness. because those are in my character and it works better if it goes both ways.
in my 20s i was completely unaware of these traits, so i would not have been able to look for them.
it should be noted that i believe that loyalty and support belong in every marriage, and the issue here is that we are not teaching our children how to be good partners or friends. and we really should be doing that more
You know when you are forced to socialize and you don't know what to talk about? Well, that doesn't happen when you are with a group of people who are all avid self-hosters, they all have cool setups and there is so much to learn.
It may feel weird, but it's so worth it to do this, even if you generally have a bad time in some bar while your normal (normie) friends are out socializing with the people around them.
but boardgames work like that too. see my other comment.
That means you already aren’t lonely you just have a common spot in a pub with your friends - HIMYM vibes incoming.
You do. And the classical eponymous Stammtisch isn't really inviting to newcomers. I've spent time in German Wirtshäuser (but maybe it's more extreme in Bavaria) sitting at a table next to the Stammtisch alone but they would never invite you to their table.
It's just not how it works, at least in Bavaria. Usually the Stammtisch is an extremely tightly-knit group of locals that frown upon everything new. Somehow over many years you might earn your right to an invitation.
Also if you go to a Wirtshaus it is easy to spot the Stammtisch (the actual table - it always has a bell) and even if it is empty you may not just sit there without permission just like in some kind of religious ritual.
Of course everyone is free to use the term to their liking and you call a regular meeting in different locations a "Stammtisch" but that is not how it is traditionally.
As a kid I joined my dad at a regular stammtisch that met at a Starbucks in the evening. That worked well, but I do think it would have benefited not just by having typical Starbucks drinks but also a few beers (giving the choice to the patrons).
As noted in the article, a coffee shop works well. But it can be tough to find a place where again it’s possible to pull a big table together. So many cafes now cater to laptop users plugging in for hours, but not necessarily for getting groups together who want to talk.
I had a "burgers and beers" meal at a pub with some friends on Saturday. Our maximum alcohol consumption was 1 beer; minimum was 0. Several decades ago, I might have had a second beer. Maybe a dessert, too.
It is very clear that younger generations are rejecting all of this anyway, partly due to reduced drinking, but seem to lack adequate substitutes. Several younger colleagues have flat out expressed the view that the idea any romantic couple ever met in a pub or bar is just Hollywood nonsense, and they were completely serious.
I enjoy seeing other people, I went sailing with a group of friends yesterday, but I absolutely enjoy spending most of my time alone.
How anyone can be "lonely" with 8 billion other people on the planet is just incomprehensible to me. For me the whole place is just way too full of people. I really relish my time alone.
This has to be some "raised on the internet" kind of millennial phenomenon.
As a barely boomer, born at the end of the '50s, the US population has tripled since my childhood. I really miss the open spaces that weren't packed full of people.
the last time i was alone in a city for a few days the only person i connected to was a friend of a friend who introduced us.
otherwise i usually look for specific activities like tech meetups, or other public social events
That's wonderful that you don't have this problem at all! And that none of your friends have ever been lonely either. I sure hope this lack of personal experience won't make it hard for you to emphathize with those who do suffer from loneliness.
> How anyone can be "lonely" with 8 billion other people on the planet is just incomprehensible to me. For me the whole place is just way too full of people. I really relish my time alone.
Uhoh. Let's start with the 8 billion people nonsense. How is that relevant? One is unlikely to meet the almost 3 billion Chinese and Indians in, say, Alaska. The fact that billions of people exist somewhere else is not helpful. Doubly so because with most of those billions there is no shared language, no shared culture or experience, and generally little else to build into a meaningful connection.
I would argue that we can reasonably exclude the earth population that you are unlikely to meet on a regular basis. This filters out about 8 billion, leaving us with "only" millions for those living in or near big cities, and hundreds to thousands for those who live in the middle of nowhere.
All of this is ignoring the fact that people manage to feel lonely even in a crowd or even at a party. Ultimately loneliness is not about being alone in the literal sense but about not having (enough) meaningful connections. Having no connections in a crowd of millions only emphasizes the loneliness, it does not solve it.
> This has to be some "raised on the internet" kind of millennial phenomenon.
Dismissing the existence of elderly loneliness and spitting on a younger generation all in one sentence. Jup, kids these days, they suck right? You could really try some more empathy with people going through hard times and not dismiss their lived experiences just because it hasn't happened to you (yet).
> As a barely boomer,
Ah, there it is.
> I really miss the open spaces that weren't packed full of people.
Sure, but the US still has many places where you can walk for hours without meeting someone. Or you could move to Alaska. If that seems like a hand-wavy bullshit argument, consider what your 8 billion people argument might feel like to someone who is lonely.
Maybe next time you go sailing ask your friends if they or someone they know have ever felt lonely, and try to stop yourself from arguing an dismissing their stories. You might learn something.
This is on the contrary for the OP a lack of the experience of feeling OK with themselves. Along with a neurotic belief that they need someone else to make them OK.
Any mental illness resides only in a person's mind. Therefore the only solution is from within that person's mind.
In short, get over it and move on. Stop wallowing in your self serving misery... Unless you actually want to feel that way...
you want friends that allow you to share and open up on problems that you face. as soon as you have your first fight you'll want some else to talk to.
a psychologist also told me that putting all your companionship needs on your partner can be burdensome. for example if i like to play board games and my wife doesn't then i better keep meeting others to play instead of giving up playing
We sat down at the Stammtisch.
The waitress kindly told us that we should move. Then everybody in the place was kind of cold to us, until someone picked up from our conversation that we were from the US. The waitress tentatively asked: "Are you Americans?" Yes. "Oh, we thought you were English." All of the sudden the whole place warmed up to us, and they even brought us complimentary glasses of the house liqueur, which I can tell you was quite potent.
I don't know why they liked Americans better than English, and we didn't press the matter.
My unsolicited advice to people wanting to visit the city has always been to not go during UK long weekends and if they're only looking for drugs and sex, that both can be sourced closer to home.
After about a minute the bouncer asked "English?".
I said "Well I speak english but I'm American, from Tennessee". He immediately smiled broadly and opened the door for me to enter.
There's also a large rivalry in soccer and balconing; combined with history and Brexit it really isn't a mystery.
https://glosbe.com/en/de/football%20hooliganism
rowdytum:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/r...
rowdy:
english(-american) rowdy, origin unclear
"thug; hoodlum," first found in British newspaper police-court reports in the summer of 1898, almost certainly from the variant form of the Irish surname Houlihan, which figured as a characteristic comic Irish name in music hall songs and newspapers of the 1880s and '90s.
Many brits cannot behave when they are on vacation, mostly because of alcohol. Not all of them, but a significantly high portion of them compared to other countries. But german have similar reputation regarding being drunktards especially when in large groups.
Other nationalities may have their own reputations and clichés. Spanish people are loud, french people complain about everything and don't make a single effort to speak the local language, etc.
As always it is always about statistics and the biggest groups tend to have the more stereotypes and generalizations. But clichés often exist for a reason.
They dress loud, but AFAICT that's only a Spaniards in Berlin thing. They guy with the top hat, circus vest, short shorts and tights and golden wings on his sneakers, very likely Spanish.
Loneliness does not need to relate to the number of people you talk to or that you know.