Comment by fecklessyouth | Hacker News Reader

Comment by fecklessyouth | Hacker News Reader

CHURCH, CHURCH, CHURCH.

There's none of the financial worries, pecking orders, or time constraints of workplace friendships, plus more of the freedom. You do it, supposedly, once a week, or more. There's no pressure to make small talk because you're there for another purpose as well, so if you get uncomfortable, you can just leave. As you get more involved, you start joining committees, planning events, coaching teams, going on retreats, leading the local Boy Scout troop, participating in Bible studies, etc and are able to bond with adults there. As long as you're set on your denomination, there's no reason to leave while you're still in the geographical area. Your kids can encourage interaction with other parents, and if they stop being friends, they'll probably still be forced together through sports/school/service events. And you're operating on the same general life philosophy as all of them--supposedly.

When my parents moved, their "friends list" literally became a subsection of the church directory.

Church literally fills every requirement in the article, since it's a very social event with a purpose besides being social for its own sake. I'm amazed the author didn't mention it. Well, not too amazed, since there's nothing more socially unsexier than church groups. I know most people here aren't too warm on religion but it sure knows how to built community.

I think the main problem is that we live in an increasingly secular society, but nothing has actually replaced church. And the people who are still at church, at least at many churches, are right-wing nutjobs.

Have you been to a Unitarian Universalist church? Definitely not right-wing.

I've also read about left-wing Catholics and Baptists (two cases where the main organization is generally seen as right-wing, but there are significant left-wing groups within them). I'm not a church-goer myself, so I don't have any suggestions on how to find a church you're comfortable with.

> Have you been to a Unitarian Universalist church?

No, and statistically, neither have practically any church-going Americans. Yes, I was talking about a generalization, I know there are liberal churches.

> I don't have any suggestions on how to find a church you're comfortable with.

For me personally, I don't think it's possible. I'm an atheist, and any church that's liberal enough to allow atheism frankly doesn't have enough verve to really hold my interest as a church, you know?

Depends on what you mean by verve, but I know some atheists who are perfectly happy with the Unitarian Universalist church they go to. Plenty of interesting people, a variety of social activities, a good place for their kids. They love it.

I know some other atheists who go to a weekly Buddhist meditation group and they are pretty involved with that community as well. I went by for a couple of sits and it seemed like a great place to meet people. They were all quite sincere and passionate about what brought them together. More so than in many Christian churches I've visited, where a lot of the people are more Christian-by-default than in any particularly thoughtful way.

I was raised Catholic. Without a heavy dose of serious ritual and theology, I can't take something calling itself a "church" very seriously. There has to be something more than a social club.

Paradoxically, I can't find my way through to agree with any kind of traditional Christian theology either, so I will remain unchurched.

Too bad there's not an American/Western equivalent to Confucianism. Some sort of deistic civic faith that is less about faith than it is about ritual, philosophy, and social relationships. That seems like something you might be interested in.

Some sort of deistic civic faith that is less about faith than it is about ritual, philosophy, and social relationships.

You're described the Unitarian church.

What kind of rituals does the UU have?

From the perspective of a former Epsicopal turning Roman Catholic .. they don't have _any_.

Not really. Confucianism is ingrained into Chinese society in ways the West can't comprehend. UU is a 19th century offshoot of NE Congregationalism.

Oh, I agree. I guess I'm riffing off of superficial similarities. I think some of the Founding Fathers would have tried to create an American civic religion akin to UU, however. (Not necessarily as a conscious decision, but they would have been more comfortable with such a creed in comparison to Puritanism or the sort of revivalism that led to the various Great Awakenings.)

You might try a Zen center, then. They have plenty of ritual, and are very serious about what they do.

I was raised Catholic. Without a heavy dose of serious ritual and theology, I can't take something calling itself a "church" very seriously. There has to be something more than a social club.

Freemasonry?

And I think that problem will continue for some time, since a replacement for church would require frequent socializing in a comfortable environment not aimed explicitly at socializing.

Unfortunately we need to replace church with something that people can do together for the point of being together.Church may still have a role in the US, but over here in Europe it's hardly an option anymore.

Could there be a startup opportunity in this space?

Relevant: http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html

I've heard that in Scandinavia, a lot of people still go to church for social contact even though most of them are agnostic/atheist.

I would assume most church-goers know this already. Doubt the rest of us secular folk would ever go to church to make friends..

But of course, there are other groups than "church-goers" and "secular folk," like the moderately religious and nominally religious, who just aren't involved in their churches.

Churches are an amazing way to meet people. When I moved abroad for a while I went to a Sunday service, immediately got introduced to a few people who I ended up becoming good friends with. I didn’t make any friends outside of church and wouldn’t have known where or how to. It was a small city with hardly anything but pubs and churches.

From the US by any chance?

Of the few hundred people I've met past casual acquaintance here in the UK, only a couple have ever talked about going to church as if it were normal. Even as a fairly passive atheist these days, I wouldn't be able to go, it'd just be very disingenuous play acting.

In the spirit of the comment I agree that something needs to replace church in secular societies. In fact, I think this is the root of the problem, there's not something to force you to see neighbours regularly any more.

Correct.

I don't know much about religion in the UK; here, it revolves very much around what sort of circles you move in. Plus what region of the country, and whether you're in the suburbs, inner city, or country.

But hey, that's what you guys have pubs for, right?

There are certain activities that seem to fill the "church gap" for people. The two that I know of are surfing and whitewater kayaking.

When you're on the water you are not worrying about finances or work or the rat race. Everyone is there to surf or paddle so there is little social pressure. You have freedom to go where you want, when you want, but you still find yourself constantly running into people you recognize or know. And if you want to "get involved" there are all sorts of events, committees, volunteer opportunities, schools, etc.

On top of all that surfing and kayaking have the ability to create spiritual experiences. Catching a great wave, or having a great run in a rapid, can create a sense of peace and bliss. The environment around you instills awe. Those sorts of shared experiences help bring people together and create friendships.

Any hobby really, there are squash and tennis clubs round the corner from me for example, they both regularly hold socials. I should join :)

These are some of the reasons I enjoy sailing as well.

Speaking of peace and bliss, I think singing is one of the best parts of religion (for the musically inclined).

Instrumental and a cappella groups are great for making friends, although I'm kind of worried where I'll find such groups after graduating college.

Yeah, but everybody you'll meet will be religious. I often think that "atheism" needs to set up structures to care for the lonely, too. Basically I think that is what the church is (among other things), they are a company catering to lonely people.

Of course lots of my friends are (moderately) religious, too, but it always leaves me uneasy. Because the things I am really interested in (evolution theory, science, artificial intelligence, science fiction, economics...) are incompatible with their beliefs. So I'll never even try to start any deep conversations with them.

There are humanist churches too that you can get involved with ... if you don't want to deal with the crazy dogma that is.

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