Bat Feces Used to Fertilize Cannabis Is Linked to 2 Deaths | Hacker News Reader

Bat Feces Used to Fertilize Cannabis Is Linked to 2 Deaths

nytimes.com

59 pointswhack53 comments

Both deaths were folks growing their own cannabis, and they were handling the fertilizer directly. Not linked to product contamination in any way.

> The spores they inhaled were in fecal matter they had used or planned to use to fertilize homegrown cannabis plants, according to the report.

Maybe a better quote that shows its not due to product contamination:

> One of the men, who was 64 years old and smoked cannabis and tobacco, reported having a severe bat infestation in his attic that left behind a thick layer of guano, which he inspected several times and planned to use as cannabis fertilizer, the researchers wrote.

Insanity!

"bat shit crazy". literally.

People using organic fertilizers indoors should be mindful of the realities about what they are using. Many of these animal byproducts are not inherently ‘safer’ just because they’re organic. Especially in poorly ventilated areas, animal fecal dusts are not something I’d want inside my home. It might sound obvious to say that, but there is a mysticism around organic fertilizers that seems to obscure people’s thinking.

People are way too lax with kitty litter

Yeah, the way people handle pet feces is quite frankly very concerning. How are they ok with cat litter full of feces just lying around for hours inside their home, especially during winter?

> How are they ok with cat litter full of feces just lying around for hours inside their home

It's a furry animal that uses it's own mouth to clean itself afterwards. It's not just in the litter box, I promise you. Meanwhile people have flush toilets that function as a water powered waste dispersion gun so their own waste gets arbitrarily distributed equally well.

Agreed on the cat mouth/butt contamination.

But I wouldn’t compare a litter box to the toilet flush. At least the toilet ensures most of the feces (save for the particles you’re talking about) is sent away.

Well, it’s natural!

Unlike the other nasty stuff that’s made up of chemicals!

Can you imagine if you could buy supernatural fertilizer?

Oh but you can.

https://www.supernaturalbrand.com/

I used to work at a hydroshop selling equipment and fertilizers. You wouldn't believe the whacky branding in this market.

The "organic" craze is completely baffling. Like, yes, shit is organic, it's also filled with a ton of pathogens that can kill you - a shitton, even!

Although I stick to composting food scraps and yard waste, when I read about manure composting basically all guidance said that in order for it to be safe you needed to make sure it went through a hot composting cycle and it was better to let it "cure" for a further two years afterwards. At that point I'd throw in the towel and only use it on things that were not for human consumption, and not even near things that are being grown for human consumption.

Life imitates art

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0774236/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_season_2#ep42

TIL you can buy bat guano online and die from it.

Reportedly, one of them had a bat infestation that produced a thick layer of guano in his attic, which he planned to use as fertilizer. He probably should have inspected his attic wearing a N95 respirator.

US used to maintain bat houses so they kill insects and drop guano. Wars were fought for guano caves. Then synthetic nitrates (Haber process) happened and the bottleneck keeping population below 1 billion went away.

Solar ovens are handy for sterilizing organic fertilizer mixes in relatively small quantities. The simplest version is just a box lined with black absorbant material (not plastic, it might melt) with a glass plate on top, and orient towards the sun around noon for a few hours. Test it for sufficient heat generation for sterilization purposes by seeing if a metal cup full of water starts boiling.

Even then you should wear an decent mask when handling all fertilizers, you don't want to be breathing the dust regardless of whether it's synthetic or organic fertilizer.

Solar ovens will absolutely NOT sterilize fertilizers. They _do_ kill most of e.coli and listeria bacteria, but plenty of bacterial spores will survive. It also will generate dust, that can be deadly.

Instead, you should keep the fertilizer in a heap under some straw. This lets a mosty-non-pathogenic microflora to get established and eat pathogenic bacteria.

You have no idea what sterilization means.

For 'moist' heat, temperatures of approximately 121–129 °C with pressure are used, whereas 'dry' heat requires temperatures from 176 to 232 °C for longer duration.

How can this be the case if for something far more direct-to-the-gut like cooking, the process of heating your food to about 75°C for at least a few seconds is enough to kill every known pathogen (except maybe prions, not sure about them).

Given that, why would you need 121°C, let alone 232°C to sterilize things like compost?

I know that high temperatures don't destroy all known microbe-created toxins, but then, that's not the definition of sterilization, which is about simply destroying the pathogens themselves.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)

Cooking reduces pathogens to a “safe” level. Sterilization is meant to overkill and eradicate them.

"How can this be the case if for something far more direct-to-the-gut like cooking, the process of heating your food to about 75°C for at least a few seconds is enough to kill every known pathogen (except maybe prions, not sure about them)."

Microorganisms are more stable than you think. Yes, 75 degree celsius kills some of them, but it is a log function. A few seconds won't help you that much.

And then there are some real bad ones that don't mind being boiled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endospore

And we are not talking yet about extremophile organisms. The endospores will survive boiling water. Extremophiles can grow above 100 degree celsius. Obviously we are talking here deep sea level so that a hot spring can have over 100 degree without going to the gas phase. But these extremophiles are unlikely to be found in your kitchen.

“Fun” fact: prions can survive an autoclave!

Cooking isn't sterilization (but maybe you don't need sterilization).

To those of you who replied in good faith with explanations for an honest doubt I had about sterilization, I thank you. Details to keep in mind when cooking, or composting.

To those who downvoted my honest question about the temperature mechanics of sterilization of chemical substances (food and compost both being examples of such), Thank you for being the kinds of silly, pedantic neckbeards who give this website's comment threats a bad name on other parts of the internet.

Won't kill all spores, so no.

https://archive.ph/hb9lw

This is weird, right? Histoplasmosis in otherwise healthy individuals seems to have an excellent prognosis.

“The other man, 59, a heavy smoker who had emphysema…”

Another proof that "smoke kills". /s

Cannabis has nothing to do with the deaths. They could have been fertilizing peace lillys with the same outcome.

Clickbait

The title:

> Bat Feces Used to Fertilize Cannabis Is Linked to 2 Deaths

From the article:

> The men, who lived in Rochester, N.Y., were not named in the article, published this month in the journal Open Forum Infectious Diseases.

> […] “Exposure to bat guano among cannabis growers appears to be a recent trend that can lead to histoplasmosis cases and outbreaks,” the researchers wrote.

The title seems fair and accurate to me. This is a reflection of the findings of the researchers.

Subjectively, the takeaway I got from this was “stay away from bat feces”, not “stay away from cannabis”.

Both in Rochester NY? A small city. Seems unlikely unless it's happening everywhere and just not detected?

A small city might explain how two cases were both noticed by similarity, if this was happening elsewhere it's possible the cases aren't being picked up for specific cause as the reality of autopsy and forensic study in the real world is that many cause of death examinations can be more cursorary and less CSI.

One case was third party purchase of bat guano, the other raw sourced from the subjects own attic.

Clearly this could occur anywhere that bats roost and|or bat shit is shovelled out and onsold.

Stay the fuck away from bats, man.

What about bat, man? Should I stay away from him too?

Cave explorers commonly get rabies prophylaxis as you can apparently catch it from the air without even being touched by a bat or their saliva.

Isn't that what happened to one of these guys? It is reported that one of them caught the fungus due to inspecting his attic (hadn't used the guano yet).

Fungus is bad, but rarely kills healthy adults. These guys weren’t healthy.

Rabies is entirely another matter.

this entire thread is a lot of today i learned :)

The NYT is very firm in their position:

People should use alcohol, tobacco and firearms, like the little baby jesus intended!

Any activity outside of the holy trinity may lead to divine punishment...

Where’s Ace Ventura?

Allllriiiighhittty then..

The only animal shit I wouldn't worry about is cow shit, probably because it is so well digested and not having nearly any sugars as a grass to start with that there isn't much bacteria left that would find a human a good host. Everything else generally contains some not great bacteria that you don't want to catch.

I assume must feces require prior treatment before they can be used as fertilizer.

Not really, it's just time before spreading and time for the soil bacteria to do their thing.

Cowdung was/is used untreated as manure in India, also as flooring and medicine. IIRC it was/is low in the list of health concerns.

Yup, I once drank water from a stream in which cows were pooping upstream. It had a distinctive taste. Nothing happened. I guess got lucky.

Batshit crazy.

(I just can’t help myself!)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com