Music and Geometry: Intervals and Scales
roelsworld.eu
roelsworld.eu
https://www.openculture.com/2024/12/john-coltrane-draws-a-pi...
And
https://www.openculture.com/2017/10/john-coltrane-draws-a-my...
With plenty of great links to dive deeper in both!
https://www.stick.com/method/articles/offsetmodal/ https://www.stick.com/method/articles/parallel/
It does seem that I include all Chapman's scales (while saying nothing about chords), although oddly enough he's chosen to use the modes of harmonic major but not those of its inversion, harmonic minor?
Edit: In fact I found the second link (first one's pretty vague and wasn't enough for me to follow the diagram) relevant enough that I added a paragraph to point out the connection!
A few months ago, mathematician John Baez had a series on the mathematics of various temperament and keys. Of course he knows his math, but also music thanks to being a member of rather famous musical family. (More math in the second link.)
https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2024/01/11/well-tempera...
https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2023/10/07/pythagorean-...
https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/1etydas/i_made...
Don't say "dissonance" (or explain what dissonance is)- that much is obvious, looking for something a bit more detailed, e.g. why 1-2-5 sounds brighter than 1-4-5
You can use the geometric representation ("necklace") to explain modulation of e.g. diatonic scales as axial mirroring. This can be regarded as a geometric operation. When you look at harmony in this way, some interesting insights open up. I've even built a tool to explore it: https://github.com/rochus-keller/MusicTools/tree/master.
There seems to be lots of stuff along the lines of 'if you understand music, here is some mathematics to help you think about it' but not much 'if you understand mathematics, but not so much about music, here is how to think about music'.
- Fauvel et al., Music and Mathematics - From Pythagoras to Fractals, 2003, Oxford UP
- Loy, Musimatics Volume 1, 2006 MIT Press
- Tymoczko, A Geometry of Music, 2011, Oxford UP
- Walker, Mathematics and Music, 2013, CRC Press
- Toussaint, The Geometry of Musical Rhythm, 2013, CRC Press
- Chew, Mathematical and Computational Modeling of Tonality, 2014, Springer
- Hook, Exploring Musical Spaces, 2023, Oxford UP
From my point of view, all titles can be appreciated by non-musicians with mathematical background (though I'm an engineer, not a mathematician, and very much involved with non-classical music). But for your specific requirement, maybe Loy is suited, but personally I consider the later books more interesting, especially Tymoczko and Hook. Book recommendations are always very subjective.
Also note that the music theory commonly taught at high schools and universities is barely able to describe music, or only a small fraction of it. And only a fraction of this theory has a mathematical fundament. Most of it is just a heuristic projection of existing music, only useful for recognizing and classifying elements, and not for deriving new music. In recent years, however, new theories have emerged that allow for both a more formal and a more practical approach.
Following the trail, I was glad to find he wrote a whole book, The Geometry of Musical Rhythm, where the article forms the basis of a chapter. It's one of my favorite books I keep returning to re-read different parts.
I hadn't seen "Exploring Musical Spaces", looking forward to reading it.
Dmitri Tymoczko's book is wonderful too, A Geometry of Music: Harmony and Counterpoint in the Extended Common Practice. Rich with ideas and insights, I like how he tells the history and development of Western music theory.
Oh I just learned from the author's website that he has a new book released.
> I have just finished a second book, Tonality: An Owner's Manual, that proposes a new, hierarchical, and geometrical model of musical stucture.
> One interesting outgrowth is the musical programming language arca. This line of thinking has also led me to contemplate a third book about category theory and music.
https://dmitri.mycpanel.princeton.edu/index.html
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This video of your live performance setup as a one-man band. Amazing.
Thanks for the feedback. The video shows my setup ten years ago; my most recent musical results are here: http://rochus-keller.ch/?p=1317.
Music theory is a way to encode and share the practice of music. The practice is largely unconcerned with and unaware of math. Any mathematical treatment that gets too far from the practice won't help you understand music.
If you want to understand and practice music, it's safest to limit your exposure to the body of work we call theory to scales, chords, and the circle of fifths and carefully expand from there. Theory can be useful, but the practice of theory can become too about itself and lose sight of the music.
Being too about theory is how you get people saying, confidently, that songs which use that common four chord progression are boring/hackish even though all the examples are of famous and beloved songs.
Besides aesthetics, though, there might be educational value given that the equal temperament tuning is a cornerstone of western music education.
that's not task. The octave has already been divided into twelve tones here.
The task is to pick sets of those twelve tones to serve some aesthetic purpose. The sets may be of various sizes, though 7 is common in a lot of european music.
If the task was to generate heptatonic scales from within the octave, there are a huge number of possibilities not described here, and most of them are rarely used (though many more than the ones based on a 12TET system are).
Aesthetic in the musical or visual sense? The visual aspect is based on the Z12 symmetry and it is pleasant - like all symmetries.
The question is what does the visual experience have to do with the music experience?
The first disconnect with the musical experience is that the 12TET itself is not what people would, e.g., choose to sing in [1].
The second disconnect is that the Greek modes of the major scale are not remotely covering all the scales people enjoy, even adopting a Eurocentric point [2].
[1] https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/41383/do-capable-h...
What you cannot do is modulate between keys with a keyboard tuned to just intonation: it would have to be retuned for every key change. The scope of the mechanism that would be required to do this has not been implemented since the harpsichord was invented.
There are synthesizers that can be retuned in this way, because there is no physical mechanism to adjust. The results are ... odd. It is still challenging to play them because in addition to performing the notes, you need to signal the key change/retuning points.
Also, when singers and violinists do this, they are not "fine tuning to zero beat frequency". Either you sing in just intonation, in which case you cannot modulate between keys (because the Nth note of the scale has a different frequency depending on the root note), or you sing in some tempered scale (in which the frequencies of the notes have been adjusted to make modulation possible).
Singers and violinists can and do adjust intonation so each chord sounds (justly) in tune. The exception is if they were trained with equal tempered instruments (which is common nowadays - see Duffin, “How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony”) or if they are playing with pre-quantized (fretted/keyed) instruments, in which case they would match the existing temperaments.
So the linked article, while it shows some beautiful shapes linked to 12s, has nothing to do with actually (justly) in tune music.
Source: master’s degree in the topic; am a professional singers specializing in music written before equal temperament was invented
But in practise, for many music styles, it doesn't really matter. Music is so much more than whether some chord is pitch perfect in tune.
Source: Jazz musician on 6 instrument types part time professional for 25 years (other part is software engineer).
My words on this were wrong and misleading.
(I'm being polite.)
I've created a 3d guitar fretboard here, where the height of the blocks corresponds to the height of the pitches: https://www.fachords.com/guitar-fretboard-3d/
And here are the shapes of the different chord qualities in the Circle Of Fifths: https://www.fachords.com/circle-of-fifths-chord-shape/
<3
I'd love to see if anyone has done this geometric / visualization for Indian classical (specifically, Hindustani) music??
Perhaps there's specific shapes / visualizations in certain Ragas that naturally emanate?
Note that in the Indian classical (Hindustani) music system, the Ragas are a "framework" for melody, not really a mode (as in Western music theory).
And if you move around the Chromatic Circle, swapping every second pair of notes with its opposite on the other side of the circle, you have the Circle of Fifths.
Although there have been some claims in these comments to the contrary, harmony is particularly mathematical. Symmetry and the breaking of within the integers mod 12 form the foundational principles of harmony.
'Pythagorean Temperament' involves the Pythagorean Comma (aka Comma of Pythagoras). Whilst mentioned, it's not spelled out as such here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma
Using a 6-string bass as an example: https://bradleyfish.com/the-notes-on-the-6-string-bass-guita...
You can find a 2D pattern in the white notes (green notes in the pic) that you can use to understand how the pattern will extend from a given point. For example notice EF+BC always appear in the same 2x2 box shape. Also how those boxes repeat in a diagonal line, and how boxes are connected vertically by a "strip" of 3 notes ADG
The only difference for guitar is that you have to correct for the G/B strings which are separated by a 3rd instead of a 4th, by scooting the pattern on the B+E strings up by one fret
- those 5 chords are the first you learn, and mechanically easy to play in open position, so you know them by heart
See this diagram (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...):
- the CAGED 'order' (C then A then G etc) matches the order in which octaves of the same root appear as you go up the neck, therefore CAGED is a good way of visualising octaves (see how in the 'C-shapes' column the chords 'share' root notes when played in that order up the neck)
- each chord matches a root note position (C: top part of the neck box on the 5th string, A: bottom part of the neck box on the 5th string, etc), therefore if you're playing a scale, no matter what position you're playing it in, you can choose a CAGED chord to overlay on it and easily find the root, third, and fifths (see how in the 'C major scale' column, you can overlay each chord onto one way of playing the C major scale)
- learning these mnemonics should eventually help you 'unlock' the guitar neck, ie have an intuitive knowledge of what intervals you're playing and how to build melodic lines with them
Generally, music theory 'works' because it describes why things sound good. It's not theory that informs what sounds good, rather theory attempts to describe what sounds good and build patterns which will help theory learners, in turn, make music which sounds good.
By the way I think the most difficult thing about CAGED is that it's way too overhyped. It promises too much (scales?) but delivers too little. (Doesn't even have minors)
The book I'm reading (recommended in another comment) does talk about minor forms of CAGED forms, though - pentatonic scale patterns, arpeggio patterns, and chord forms.
You can't make music without learning an instrument.
Maybe the instrument is a computer with PD or DAW software but it is still a musical instrument that you have to learn to play.
There is no way around spending hours learning and practicing whatever instrument you pick.
What makes a computer hard to learn to play is that it has too many options. You don't learn anything playing trumpet for a month, then changing to piano for 2 weeks, then trying a new guitar that just came out for 2 months. That though is basically what many computer musicians do.
You need to pick the software setup and then spend a long time learning it and don't switch instruments.
And here are some nice composition created with Nodal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1BzGaz62PE, https://youtu.be/gi61bHLyDsU, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTpyIT8dWIA.
> you have to use numbers instead of line lengths
That's the whole point of Nodal; you represent musical patterns (and control flow) with graphical means. Entering numbers is close to Midi event lists and has little to do with Nodal's approach. Max/Pd are great tools, but focus on the processing and signal flow aspect (i.e. the machine which generates the music/noise), not the representation of the music.