USDA locks barn door after Listeria escapes
efoodalert.com
efoodalert.com
> Ten people died.
[…]
> Information released by the FSIS in response to multiple Freedom of Information Requests revealed that the agency had been aware of major deficiencies at the Boar’s Head production facility since October 2022, but had taken no action to suspend production or order a clean-up. These deficiences were described as posing an “imminent threat to product” in a Food Safety Assessment conducted in September/October 2022.
I guess if the FDA was aware of this, the company must have been as well, right? Hospital bills are quite expensive nowadays, is there any caselaw on trying to recover the costs of medical bills incurred by the sanitation policies of Boar’s Head?
I know this is a popular topic to blame Trump on for some reason (happening 2 years into the next admin), but surely the fda still has the ability to shut down locations some times.
My gut is it just got lost in the bureaucracy of the agency, but I'd love to see an actual explanation.
What’s Trump have to do with? I don’t like him or his policies, but I don’t think we need to trace all bad decisions back to him or anything like that.
Edit: just to be explicit, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that cost-cutting or whatever resulted in fewer inspections, which resulted in less discovery of issues. But since the issue actually was discovered… I dunno, it seems more like a decision making problem, if a health issue is known about for two years without any action taken. Maybe there’s some other way to blame budget cuts there… I don’t see it though.
> During the Trump administration, U.S. Department of Agriculture researchers published and funded objective analyses of issues such as climate change, the efficiency of food assistance programs, and tax cuts that mostly benefit the richest farmers. It wasn't received well.
> Trump officials proposed deep cuts to USDA research agencies. When Congress wouldn't go along, the administration came up with plan B: Move two agencies — the National Institute of Food and Agriculture and the Economic Research Service — far away from Washington.
Doing this gutted the ability for the USDA to execute and stay on mission and this was intentional. This kind of outbreak would be the natural result.
[1] https://www.npr.org/2021/02/02/963207129/usda-research-agenc...
I suppose because he cut spending on government work in general, that is not police and army related?
(But I lack insights into whether he cut any budgets related to this)
I'm not sure this explanation holds water
I would generally expect the latter to be accomplished by regulatory fines; it's simpler and cleaner than an array of individual civil suits.
The greater issue is that I'd be very surprised if many of those civil suits were effective, and especially so for being cost effective (for either side).
Citizens will need to prove beyond a preponderance of evidence that their relative's infection was due to Boar's Head, which is going to be very difficult. Everyone is exposed to dozens of potential Listeria sources every day; it's hard to prove it was Boar's Head and not Chipotle or McDonald's or whatever else they've eaten/touched.
It genuinely probably makes more sense to do a regulatory fine on Boar's Head, and then distribute the fine to affected people via a mechanism with a lower bar. Maybe everyone who had a Listeria infection around that time, which is much easier to prove than the source of the infection.
Manufacturing products overseas doesn't exempt you from liability for selling t-shirts that are too flammable. I can still sue The Gap for selling me a dangerous item that they made in Bangladesh as easily as I can sue them for selling me a dangerous item that they made in San Francisco.
Food doesn't work this way - each jar has a low chance of contamination, so spot testing won't catch the problem. Small changes in manufacturing procedure can result in big changes in safety.
source: worked in the wholesale food industry, across 300+ categories.
That's why I don't buy LOBNDX, I only buy LUOATIP, sold with 【No Burn House Down】feature.
Really, that's why I try to just never shop at Amazon.
If anyone has insight to share I'd love it.
I assumed they were the default on some Chinese site (alibaba or temu or something like that), and just got copied over by default.
Always another rabbit hole to explore.
As I stated before, the liability still exists even when you manufacture outside of the country. There are no net cost savings from a liability lawsuit standpoint to be had by moving production overseas.
"Requiring safe standards is bad for business" is possibly true (at least in the short term), but I'm not sure that the alternative is better.
EDIT: I inadvertently read the parent post uncharitably, as suggesting that there should be no enforcement at all. gizmodo (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42452514) points out that arguing against civil liability is not arguing against effective regulation and enforcement.
B) I hope you like meat imported from China
I'm not saying to do this for every single industry, just for food
Any suits that fail 99% of the time are frivilous and the normal method of dealing with same is punishing claimants who should have known better by fining and disbarring lawyers and making claimant bear costs.
Ways exist to distinguish between a frivilous and non case in this category.
-Has responsible party exhibited a pattern of failures of their normal duty of care according to testimony and evidence that would be collected by the government as part of reasonable investigations and inspection
-Is it more likely than not that present issue is related.
It seems unreasonable that we must either open up bobs meats to lawsuits with every sandwich or ignore the fact that Bob killed dozens because he has been known to be a filthy pig for years.
That seems like a likely factor, but insurance against product liability suits can be very expensive in some (litigious) industries, and is also a factor in total cost analysis.
Perhaps putting all liability on the importer, distributor, or retailer for imported goods.
Standard product liability law already has joint and several liability for manufacturing defects on all parties in the chain of commerce, so each of the retailer, distributor, importer, and manufacturer already bear full liability.
These parties do carry extensive liabilities when there's a product defect or fault, as was the case in the cited case. The issue is that manufacturers usually produce larger volumes, and are thus vulnerable to more of these lawsuits, as well as class-actions. Class-action cases are often extremely and expensive, even when there was no clear fault.
you can read about it in more depth here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_hormone_controversy
That is about the beef. There is a different controversy about poultry meat. There the controversy is that under EU law, cold air and water are the only substances that can be used to decontaminate poultry. In the US chlorine rinses are also permitted.
In other words artificial beef growth hormones and chlorine rinsed chicken are the two points which is what we mean by 'substandard' in this conversation.
Below the legal standard.
But thanks for your contribution :)
The other interpretation would be that you were under the curious assumption that US beef isn’t the lowest quality in all the first-world, and other countries would be happy with the substandard offcuts because even they would exceed local standards?
The point being, the wbole thread is about the breakdown of food safety in the US to an illegal level, and as such, it wasn't unreasonable to consider that someone's opinion was that a risk of being supplied with US food might involve illegal foods also.
https://www.usda.gov/article/usda-announces-proposed-rule-mo...
This is just the natural result of these policies. Did they really expect the companies to actually self-report all the deficiencies?
It played out as you'd expect.
We need to energize people to actually fix these problems.
What's somewhat disturbing is that there are politicians that think that it should work that way all the time.
I don't remember the specific states, but remember reading that some state legislatures were upset that county health officials had been able to close in-person dining at restaurants during the height of the pandemic and had changed their laws so that county health officials could no longer close a restaurant for health code violations unless the health officials could demonstrate someone had actually been seriously sickened by the violation.
Anyways, having a pregnant wife right now, it's worrying that listeria is on the rise. We're already avoiding stuff like deli meat but when there's listeria in the frozen waffles, mushrooms, and vegetables you have to wonder what's really going on.
What was such a reconfiguration of the economy actually mean in real terms?
In practice the example I like to use is soil loss. Farming isn't sustainable because the soil literally blows and washes away and cannot be regenerated. The solution is to have forest patches to reduce the wind speed and marshes to hold the rain. All of this takes valuable land which cannot be used 'productively' but is vital to make agriculture sustainable.
FWIW, While I'm generally in favor of (geographical) decentralization, I'm against abrupt changes to essential services. Obviously, a nice orderly transition would have been better. Plenty of staff, esp youngsters wanting a house and family, would relocate over time.
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https://www.npr.org/2021/02/02/963207129/usda-research-agenc...
https://www.govexec.com/oversight/2023/01/although-usda-agen...
Also, conjecture: Closing a barn door would likely not solve any actual food safety issues, but it might keep the livestock in place.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/104948/english-p...