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Comment by johnea | Hacker News Reader

If he can't count, how does he know where he is in a measure?

Feel. I think it's mostly the case that people who play rock are not constantly counting to figure out where they are in a measure. In fact, I'd imagine that's the case for a lot of jazz players too.

I have dyscalculia (and dyslexia) but I can keep time like you wouldn't believe. I once met a hotel lobby musician who was unreal and I said to him, you must be excellent at math, he said actually I can't even do basic algebra. I have a very rich audio/visual memory and thinking style, I can think in sound and movies, but that thinking style kinda creates the limiting factor for numbers and letters (literal no framework for them) maybe?

After spending a huge chunk of my time growing up in rhythm sections as the bass player, not only can I follow time like nobody's business, but I've grown to develop a penchant for weird time. Give me a time signature beyond 3/4 or 4/4 (15/8, anyone!?), or more importantly, give me a musician who will play some heavily syncopated rhythms and polyrhythms (looking at you, Chris Dave) and just do their best to stretch, bend, re-shape, and - pardon my french - fuck time. That's my jam.

Ask me to do anything beyond add/subtract/divide (forget algebra entirely lol), though, and my brain shits itself. Even at a certain point, division becomes complicated for me. But I will hit that pocket and never, ever lose the beat every single time, and that's always been interesting to me.

The trick to those is finding the pocket.

If you're in the pocket anything you play will be on time.

Pretty much anyone can stay in a 4/4 time if they have a lick of musical ability.

With the weird time signatures like 13/8 or 7/4 it can be tough to find the pocket, so in those cases the vibe tends to divide into 2 sections that fit right at first (like one section of 7/8 and one of 6/8, or one section of 4/4 and one of 3/4) and you bounce between them until you sew them both together and then you can stay in the pocket for all of them.

It's harder to explain via text than it is in music practice.

And with enough practice, "weird" becomes ordinary. I can keep rhythm in 7/8 and 7/4 almost as easily and automatically as 4/4 now, but 10 years ago it still took work. I sometimes go entire days with unbroken 7/8 music going in my head.

I began playing drums for rock. Never had formal training (hell, I even played open handed and heel on foot because I never saw closely someone else playing drums) and yes, 99.9% I do it by feel or by ear, learning the melody. I'm trying to revert that 22 years after, though.

I genuinely thought everybody did the same until went to a clinic by Pepi Taveira, an argentinian jazz drummer, where he admitted doing the same - that unlike everyone elde, he didn't kept a count but kept the measure reference by learning the melody - specially on odd time metrics.

I wouldn't limit it to rock but anything that sticks to one time signature is pretty simple. Any 4/4 or 3/4 or 6/8 is easy to count. Then you have rock groups like Tool where the drummer is playing a totally different time signature than the guitar and only sync back up on least common denominator multiples. Jazz gets crazy too like you said.

What's weird is there are bands that deliberately play odd meters in their time signatures to match some sort of math concept that is just no where near the same likeability as what Tool does with their Fibonacci sequence and other things. I don't know if they are just lesser musicians, but it definitely feels forced. This is what I notice a lot about some jazz where they are doing it for the sake of doing it not because it sounds good.

It's definitely a case of learning the rules so you know how best to break them. If you just start breaking them without knowing why they are there in the first place just sounds bad to me.

Are you talking about Sungazer?

"I don't know if they are just lesser musicians, but it definitely feels forced"

I think the art with that sort of stuff is making a rhythm and melody for the vocal, or lead instrument that feels natural, yet fits over the odd time signature.

There was a (slightly obscure) branch of Jazz funk in the late 80s early 90s called M-BASE that had a lot of this kind of stuff.

This track is called the X Format, by Steve Coleman, and i think it's in 13/8 time. But its always boggled my mind. It must be devilishly hard to play, but it feels quite groovy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydjcl65R9Lg

I play the drums. When you know a song well, you literally don't have to count anything. Sure when you're first learning a song counting bars can sometimes be helpful, but you can also listen to other cues to know when a change is coming. Like the music itself (verse, chorus, etc), or the lyrics. Either way, after playing a song enough times you'll have it memorized.

For a drummer, knowing how to read music is not at all a requirement for pop/rock/jazz. OTOH it would be important for a percussionist playing orchestral music, or for marching band/drum corps stuff.

One of the things I will forever take away from my guitar mentor is that if you are tapping your feet to count, you are doing it wrong.

"Counting" is simply a symptom of incorrect focus. What part of you is doing the counting, while the other part is playing?

I am not a super powerful polyrhythmic-capable person or anything, but I do appreciate in my playing how there is a really distinct difference between the counting I do in everyday life to the the particular consciousness I have of my position in a measure..

Its hard explain, and I don't doubt there are many musicians way more talented than me that truly "count" each measure. But either way, I can definitely understand how both of these things can be true.

I'm a bass player. The feel of the rhythm will carry you along. Especially if the rest of the band is U2. They had extremely solid time.

Now I'll have to re-listen to the material and see if I can get any inkling that he was struggling. I kinda don't think I will.

He can, but it's hard for him

> “When people watch me play sometimes, they say, ‘you look pained’. I am pained because I’m trying to count the bars,”

johnea asked about within a measure, not counting bars.

That said, the 1-2-3-4 of a single bar doesn’t need to be counted numerically as such, any more than we need to number the corners of a square. Orienting within a pattern of beats does not require numbers any more than orienting position in a square room.

Not everybody internalizes easily the length of a measure though. Even for advanced musicians, it can be very useful to count to improve one's sense of time, or to work on complex rhythm.

See this video from drummer Shawn Crowder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aun3-bKojnM&t=76s

Adam Neely has similar content.

The numbers are irrelevant for counting time though. It could just as well be A B C D rather than 1 2 3 4. In fact, tabla drummers use words/syllables instead of "counting". Counting measures is completely different as in that case, you're actually measuring something. Counting time is more declarative than measuring imo. Especially when you consider notes between the beats. It's not 1.75, its one-e-and. It's not 2.5, it's 2-and.

if you've ever seen some of the videos from Drumeo on YT, you'll see them all pretty much counting the number of beats to a measure, and then trying to count phrases. It's fun when they're screwing with them by giving them something from II or Danny Carey or Dream Theater (hangs head in shame for forgetting his name). Even the Dream Theater guy struggles with Pneuma.

I've never been taught drums, but other instruments and we all learn to count 8th notes as one-and with 16th as one-e-and-a. This isn't specific to drummers at all.

I never said this was specific to drummers. Again, yes they count using numbers, but that's just convention. Unless you're counting crazy composite time signatures like 17/8 or some shit, the numbers are meaningless in the context of a single measure. For 99.9% of popular music using 3-6 beats, it could just as easily be letters or colors or something. Numbers are sufficient but not necessary.

There’s a reason it’s done the way it is. For one, the names of the notes are letters, so using numbers makes it easy to differentiate notes from beats. Time signatures are also numerically noted. So trying to say using A/B time makes absolutely no sense. Trying to promote using numbers is arbitrary is nonsensical.

If you change 1,2,3,4 into A,B,C,D - you're still counting. You're just using different symbols to do it.

Take a moment longer to think about it and you realize that 1,2,3,4 are also just symbols - potentially raw counting does not require these symbols at all.

So ABCD is unlikely to make life easier for the subject of this story.

We are in agreement then. I'm not saying it would make things easier, it's just convention. Being a lifelong musician, I will admit that it's so internalized in me, I never have to count or even think about numbers in any way, unless I'm counting some foreign complicated time signature. Honestly I think the tabla guys got it right with their syllabic mnemonics.

"My inability to make reasonable comparisons is worse than slow death from starvation."

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