Android sales "trouncing" Apple since release of iPhone 4 | Hacker News Reader

Android sales "trouncing" Apple since release of iPhone 4

foxnews.com

So, the iPhone is almost even in sales with the entire Android ecosystem consisting of thousands of models, many of them cheap or free to consumers. Am I supposed to be impressed?

To be fair, the title (both this one and the foxnews.com headline) is linkbait. But Apple is selling 2/3 as many handsets (not really "almost even") and losing market share, so the report represents real motion and is newsworthy. You're not supposed to be "impressed" per se, but if you're interested in the smartphone market it's stuff you should be reading. And if, as I suspect, you're a die hard Apple fan who hates all things Android to the core: play around with a device running ICS or JB. I think you'll be surprised at how impressive they are.

>And if, as I suspect, you're a die hard Apple fan who hates all things Android to the core: play around with a device running ICS or JB. I think you'll be surprised at how impressive they are.

I understand why it's hard to get people to believe this, but it's absolutely insane how hard it is to convince people of this. I've seen more and more people floored at Jelly Bean. They watched the demo video and are amazed at how nice it looks and how slick it is. I don't have the heart to tell them that Honeycomb was 50% of the way there (Between Froyo and JB) and that ICS was... 99.9% of the way there. There are hardly any visual changes outside of the "Project Butter" between ICS and JB and yet all the people are acting like JB is this big visual refresh.

Don't get me wrong Project Butter uped the ante, but not that much. It's as smoother or smoother than the iPhone, but ICS was nearly there. The 60Hz vsync just made it that much nicer. Plus, none of that 2002-2003-esque skeuomorphism. It almost pains me to see iOS in places after Holo in ICS, it reminds me of plasticy KDE.

iOS has been my bread and butter for the last year but I really think Apple is losing ground here. If Google wasn't having such a hard time getting OS updates out there I think Apple would be in serious trouble.

I think Apple's simplistic, app-centric model helped get the iPhone out the door in 2007 but it's showing its age now and Apple's regressive, skeuomorphic designs look increasingly dated compared to the competition.

Google has been way behind in terms of execution with their Android story, I keep hoping that Motorola Mobility will inject their execution DNA into Google rather than the other way round, only time will tell.

Google has been way behind in terms of execution with their Android story

What does this mean? I'm not sure I agree or maybe I just don't understand

This means that if you are an OS vendor but not the system vendor, you have to do things (aka execute) which allow complete systems (hw + OS) to be brought to market. You have to define a HAL for example, and a way to evolve that HAL, and a way to probe what parts of the HAL need to be implemented in software because the hardware bits are missing. You need to provide a bullet proof schedule (which usually means prioritizing software availability over feature availability) at pre-defined times. You need to have a strong relationship with chipset and other silicon vendors to enable solid device support, which is at least backward compatible and ideally forward compatible as well. You need to be able to work with a hardware partner to get their stuff up and running, you need clear APIs that don't change and solid training materials to bring engineers up to speed. You need to create a series of test suites and compatibility suites to provide confidence on your vendors part that they are doing it right. And perhaps most importantly you should provide legal indemnification for your partners who use your software.

When you execute well, all those things are there. When you execute poorly there are parts missing, or parts that are confusing.

The result of poor execution is incompatibility flareups, your partners product shipments slip because they haven't had enough integration time, you screw some partners with a release they cannot ever run on their hardware, and your partners take punches in court for you over their decision to use your OS. That's painful.

I was working at Google when Android was released and while not part of that team, participated in the early development contests and worked on a 'loaner' G1 to test various things. That first release with T-mobile was when Google still felt that could release on open source (mostly) OS, and a reference implementation, and the rest of the world could just pick it up and go wild. (this is sometimes referred to as the 'throw it over the wall' strategy). Fortunately, this failed really hard, really fast as evidenced by the pretty sizable gap between the first Android phone and the second. But Google is nothing if not resilient. When I left in 2010 they were still struggling with the notion of 'software releases have timelines' kind of thing because all of Google's other properties just pushed out to their own hardware in their data centers which meant alpha was beta was release all wrapped in one. Not only that but major changes could occur between any step. Hardware partners really really don't like it when you make a major change between one release and the next.

Much of the early thrashing in the Android market was due to inexperience on Google's part. The fact that Jelly Bean has been released and Ice Cream Sandwich is hardly anywhere is, in my opinion, and artifact of this learning process.

I think Google's software engineering team has mostly been doing a very good job evolving and refining the platform.

Unfortunately Google hasn't done very well corralling the various OEMs into getting their work out there into users' hands and I agree their execution needs to improve there, although I'm not sure specifically what they can do without pushing OEMs away from the platform altogether.

Shame that when you actually USE an ICS/JB device all you notice is how inconsistent and unpolished the UI/UX is across the OS, vendor additions and the apps. And this is on the Samsung Galaxy 3 the supposed flagship phone.

It's confusing enough just knowing when to use the hardware "back" button or not.

Samsung has a skin on it, it's minimal, but it's still there.

I have a dozen nonstock app installed... and they all fit with the style just fine or perfectly.

>It's confusing enough just knowing when to use the hardware "back" button or not.

I've never understood and may never understand this confusion though I hear it and try to address it constantly. It's the same in almost every app and is different in only a very few apps where the overridden behavior makes a lot of sense.

> And this is on the Samsung Galaxy 3 the supposed flagship phone.

The Galaxy S3 was never the "supposed flagship phone." I don't know where you heard that, but whoever told you was wrong. The only "flagship" phones for Android are the Nexus phones.

Apple's UI and app centric approach is showing its age for sure. With Android Google has shown that it can take chances with the UI. Android UI has eveolved much more in last 4 years as compared to Apple's.

Of course Windows Phone though the most beautiful OS of the three is well behind these two.

> Of course Windows Phone though the most beautiful OS of the three is well behind these two.

Agreed.

And iOS 6 is pathetic. I feel completely let down. Apple continues their push to make iOS look like shit with each release by adopting more skeuomorphic UI themes. They ignore all the issues with iTunes. Really, this is the first release of iOS, ever, that I haven't been eagerly anticipating the release.

The problem is the hardware. It's always the hardware with Android. If the phone has a nice camera the GPS is crap. If the GPS works, the screen is shit. Or it's got hardware buttons a year after ICS came out. And if you're lucky enough to get all that? Then it'll have a locked bootloader so you're stuck with whatever TouchSenseBlur crap the manufacturer's marketing department decided to vomit all over the beautiful, stock Android.

I suspect this is a significant challenge for Google and Android branding in general. When people compare their experiences "with Android" it seems they don't mention the particular hardware they are using. Unlike Apple where if you're using an 'iOS phone' the hardware is known. So its perfectly understandable when two people have diametrically opposed opinions on Android, switch hardware, and switch sides. Its like every dessert was named 'ice cream' and yet some people ate mars bars and some people m&ms and some twizzlers.

What is wrong with the Galaxy Nexus?

Android devs really need to step up their game and give these non-childish names. Jellybean? where am I, disney.com?

And if you think that's tough, try convincing an iOS or Android fan that MS actually built a spectacular user interface... all you hear is marketshare numbers.

  ICS
  JB
  Honeycomb
  Froyo
  Project Butter
  Holo

Off topic: the Andoid namesapce sure is getting polluted with jargon.

Sorry, Android 4.0, 4.1, 2.2, "a project to make it butter smooth", "the default UI".

It's jargon because it's HN and I'm used to being able to get away with it. I don't see how a code or release name is "polluting".

Maybe they should just call it "magical" every release and drop the versioning. Oh. Maybe "I want Android.". Not "I want an Android phone". Since, you know, the cool guys can't do version numbers or articles now because their devices are too magical for them. (This is a real thing, btw, you'll note that Apple doesn't use articles near their iDevices).

"But Apple is selling 2/3 as many handsets (not really "almost even") and losing market share"

Actually, that's something I'm not clear on. Apple is losing percentage, but that might be in a growing market. Losing market share would imply the market is staying the same size, no?

No, market "share" is a relative quantity (just like a share of stock or of a pie). iOS sales are undeniably growing, and Apple is printing money with these devices. This doesn't show that they're "losing" in any meaningful way. What it shows is that Android is "winning faster", which may be a problem for Apple long term (or not, depending on where the market stabilizes).

You're right, I am an Apple fan. OS X has done amazing things for my productivity since I switched and I've done a tremendous amount of "creating" on the device people say is only for consumption (the iPad.) When my iMac had an issue, Apple paid a guy to drive 4 hours across state lines to fix it for me so I wouldn't have to wait for shipping. When my iPod died, Apple gave me a better one. Apple has earned my trust.

Google on the other hand has not. When my Gmail account was hacked I couldn't even find a contact for Google. Everything I read from 3rd parties said it was an exploit on the mobile Gmail website and yet Google wasn't going to look in to it, instead they had support docs that said it was probably my fault. Later, as an early Google+ evangelist, I had my account locked down because my wife and I were sharing the same Google account. Again, no way to contact. I've come to accept that Google doesn't give a shit about any individual customer and so I don't bother supporting them in any way.

As far as Android, I just don't care. No matter how good the Android OS gets, I care more about the 3rd party apps I'll be using. I've purchased a lot of great software from amazing developers that simply isn't available on Android. This is particularly an issue with tablet apps.

I once was a happy iTunes/App Store user, for my iPad. One day, late at night, I started getting receipts in my inbox for App Store purchases. Apparently I was purchasing the same $15 app once every 5 minutes. Except, I wasn't. It was only by chance that I was still awake when I caught it, and it had already racked up about 12 purchases in a row. In a frantic fit of confusion, I canceled whatever payment agreement I had with iTunes and then charged everything back through my bank. I guess I got hacked.. or something? I still don't know.

As a result of the chargebacks, Apple permanently disabled my iTunes ID. Since then, there has been no way for me to re-enable it, and I lost everything associated with it. Eventually I gave up. I haven't reformatted my iPad or taken the time to create a new account, so my iPad is frozen in time with whatever software I had installed on it by early 2011. So I have the same support impression of Apple that you do of Google, since the only time I ever needed them was for this, and they failed. It hasn't turned out to be much of a problem since I mostly use it for the internet on the toilet.

All companies have good and bad support in certain areas.

I'm typing this on ICS after using iPhone exclusively for nearly three years and can say I'm rather impressed with it. It is no longer nothing like the G1 (that I got one to play around for few weeks back then) or the Nexus One. It gets a lot smoother, prettier and third party software feels a little bit more likable (UI-wise) than it used to be.

Compared to when I last looked where rooting is prohibited by manufacturers, today we have something like HTCdev that provide an official way to unlock that is kind of cool.

Judging from the one in my hand right now I'm giving it about 85% of iPhone smoothness which makes me seriously looking forward to Jelly Bean. It would become my primary mobile OS of choice if Google finally get vendor update and manufacturers crapware sorted out.

> third party software feels a little bit more likable (UI-wise) than it used to be.

That is the important thing so many Android fans seem to ignore. The OS isn't as important as the 3rd party apps. Android developers are of tremendous importance to the overall success of Android, maybe even more than Google. This will only become more important in the future as more normal people learn to use app stores. iOS has a lot of great developers that have moved over from the Mac. They have experience making apps that aren't only functional but also beautiful and easy to use. Java developers moving to Android on the other hand usually lack the experience with front-end design given Java is typically an enterprise language.

We should probably also be "impressed" at how blatantly inaccurate that color chart is at representing the actual share percentages.

Actually, according to the article Android is selling 50% more handsets. Not really "almost even."

I don't think you are supposed to be impressed, it is just a bit of sales data for use at cocktail parties. It seems pretty clear that both iOS and Android are here for the long haul.

Why is this the top comment? Did you even click the link? 54.6 != 36.3. Not even almost equal...

Also, don't knock it till you try it.

I've tried a few. Nothing too exciting. The 3rd party software kind of ruins the Android experience. Google can't do too much about that.

I was far more impressed with the Windows Phone actually. I also liked webOS and I'm excited to see what they do with the Firefox OS.

I'm sorry your Android experience wasn't the same as mine. If you're talking about vendor specific 3rd party software, then yes I agree there was/is some terrible UI skins out their. But that is what happens when you create software that is free and open source, companies )and in many cases carriers) can do whatever they want with it. I think Google realized the impact this was having on their UI and is now taking steps to fix it. If you have used an ICS or JB device the experience really is much better and much much more unified.

I'm not saying Android is perfect they have certainly made mistakes, but I think that now they have worked a lot of the kinks and are shipping a much better product. This is something that often happens in the software industry, how many people used Mac OS before OS X? How terrible was the Palm UI before WebOS? How bad was Windows Vista?

Software companies make mistakes, but the good ones learn from them and create better products in the future, that's what innovation is all about.

If you haven't yet I encourage you to try an Android ICS or JB device and see if your experience differs.

People often say this. It seems defensive. Basically if the iPhone has higher sales or market share, you can say "Ha, this one phone is beating everything!" And if it's losing in either of those areas, you can say "But it's only one phone!" Also can't you get an iPhone 4 for $99 and a 3GS for $0?

Keep in mind the iPhone is the only phone with iOS, so if you want to get an iOS phone, the iPhone is your only choice. You're not necessarily supposed to be impressed with these Android numbers - but if you aren't, you probably shouldn't be impressed when tides temporarily turn and iPhones are winning in these numbers, either. It's not just one device vs many, it's one OS vs one other OS.

My point was if we're supposed to root for a winner (which is stupid), it hardly seems impressive to use an article like this as your argument.

The reason so many care about these numbers is they want to use them to say their OS is better than the other when it isn't relevant at all. And, the masses make a lot of dumb decisions: just watch the elections coming up!

That doesn't make my remark any less true. Walk in to a cellular store and there is one or two iPhone models on the display. The entire rest of the store is Android phones made by dozens of different companies with new models coming out every day. Of course Android should have the bigger numbers, look at what the iPhone is competing against! Not to mention, a lot of Android builders will cut corners on build quality and offer the same mostly software features as the iPhone on much cheaper hardware. Which phone is your mom gonna pick? The expensive iPhone or the plastic Android sitting next to it that claims to do the same thing—but free with a 2 year contract.

If I'm being defensive, it's because I'm annoyed. I come to hacker news to learn new things and peek in to the world of development, something I'm fascinated in as a designer. I just so fucking sick of the flamebait threads.

> I just so fucking sick of the flamebait threads.

If you've got a problem with a flamebaiting editorialized title, say that; don't start the flame. Android and iPhone are both doing well. This is one metric where Android is ahead. Whether or not it's impressive, it's certainly noteworthy.

"Also can't you get an iPhone 4 for $99 and a 3GS for $0?"

Wait, you mean someone is giving me a smartphone for free, without any kind of obligations from my site? I just take the device and that's it?

Just like the PC. Funny how they manage to do this all over again.

Apple will go bankrupt again in the 2030's until around 2039 when Jobs gets re-animated...to squander whatever the next big opportunity will be.

> Apple will go bankrupt again in the 2030's

I hope not. Apple is one of the few companies making an effort to design software and hardware together. Until other companies realize you can't have a good user experience without considering all aspects of the product, many people will continue to cheer Apple's approach to product development. This is one of the reasons why it's exciting that Microsoft is doing the Surface tablet. It seems like Microsoft took a step back and looked at how Apple has executed some great products and is taking a similar approach.

As a 2010 Android user, I get angry reading how "impressive" these new releases have become while my phone is stuck with huge exploitable holes and a horrible user experience(2.3). I have a feeling the numbers will decline once other alternatives come out because I can't be the only person disgusted with the platform. Can Jelly Bean even play pro audio apps without latency? Will any real pro audio companies even make apps for Android if they actually fixed the latency?

Actually Jelly Bean is finally supposed to provide usable audio latencies for audio apps:

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2012/07/android-audio-improvem...

Unfortunately, it will probably be a while until there's enough of an installed base of 4.1 to matter, but at least the fix is in.

Those are legitimate criticisms. But they aren't really related to this article. Your 2010 phone is at the end of its contract. This is a study of phones sold in the second quarter of this year (to people who, statistically, have zero demand for "pro audio" apps). There are plenty of reasons for you to prefer your iOS device; please don't pollute a discussion of market numbers with arbitrary flamage.

The color chart on that page is truly misleading - there's essentially no relationship between the size of the rectangles and the actual share numbers. The real news from the actual share numbers is that (iOS + Android) is now utterly trouncing everybody else.

Here's one attempt to fix the graphics - a more accurate look makes Apple look much more impressive relative to the market as a whole, mostly at the expense of RIM and Windows and Other but also somewhat at the expense of the largest Android competitors (Apple has roughly twice Samsung's market share):

http://9to5mac.com/2012/07/13/nielsen-needs-to-work-on-their...

This data comes from Nielsen. Where does Nielsen get information on smartphone sales? In other words, how close to the truth is their data?

comScore is showing a similar trend I believe.

http://mashable.com/2012/07/13/android-51-8-market-share/

Are you serious? How desperate are you to refute this claim? Nielsen is one of the top and most respected marketing research companies in the world. They have an entire division dedicated to mobile research, called what else? Nielsen Mobile. If you take a look at their website they mention exactly how they collect data. I will copy it below to make things easier for you.

"Nielsen uses a broad range of measurement tools to help companies make the most of their investments in mobile, including:

-Monitoring network signaling in 86 U.S. markets to count mobile subscribers and determine marketshare

-Analyzing the cellphone bills of more than 65,000 mobile subscribers in the U.S.

-Conducting extensive drive tests to measure quality of service in North America

-Deploying On-Device Meters to measure smartphone activity

-Analyzing carrier server logs to understand feature phone usage behavior

-Surveying mobile consumers via telephone, in-person and online surveys"[1]

[1]:http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/measurement/mobile-measurement....

Easy there, eridius didn't say anything about refuting anything. Relax, and thank you for the information.

I think you're reading intent into my comment that simply wasn't there. I was asking where Nielsen gets smartphone data, since the article didn't give any information whatsoever on that. The text you copied here is pretty much exactly what I wanted.

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