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Comment by droithomme | Hacker News Reader

"All eligible products" is a key, the new iPad with its glued in battery is not among them.

The "more efficient and longer lasting" case materials he brags about are irrelevant in their disposable products made of low quality components that are not user serviceable or upgradable.

It's like bragging you made your automobile frame out of solid titanium with a carbon fiber shell, but ignoring the fact that you built the engine without any way to change the oil, so you're going to be throwing it out or sending it in for major costly service after a short time. Such planned obsolescent designs are certainly not environmentally sound, and claims of the longevity and strength of the frame materials, and even of certifications, are just PR to distract and hypnotize the marketplace into believing the opposite of the reality of the situation.

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Not being user-servicable does not mean it's disposable. You can take it to Apple Stores and they'll fix it for you (and they certainly don't tuck the entire thing in the trash, they probably have some complex machines (that not everyone has) that are able to de-glue screen/battery and case).

It's a compromise most regular customers will probably accept.

And I don't get ""disposable products made of low quality components"" at all. Low quality?!

But you can't upgrade them. I just added 4 GB of RAM and an SSD to my mom's 4-year-old MBP, ensuring it'll last another 3-4 years. 2 GB RAM and a 5400rpm drive just wasn't cutting it anymore. Several of my friends extended the lives of their MacBooks by replacing the DVD with a secondary SSD.

Apple's new generation design of Macs have soldered-in RAM and a proprietary disk. Will we be able to upgrade them in 4 years?

edit: Imagine if you could upgrade the RAM in an iPad. I could still have used my original iPad now instead of it being junk.

Junk!!??

I have a first generation iPad and it does more things than the first day it was purchased.

Not being updated will mean that it will do the same things it does now but no more. That's far from junk.

Every iOS update slows it down more and more and makes apps crash more as they run out of RAM and developers have only tested it with the latest device.

You pointedly didn't respond to the post:

>> I have a first generation iPad and it does more things than the first day it was purchased.

That's certainly true of mine, crashing 3rd-party apps notwithstanding.

The original iPad was very much sold on the promise of upcoming third-party apps. If it didn't have the potential of apps, I would definitely not have bought it, just how I didn't buy the original iPhone.

And it has had upcoming third-party apps for 2+ years since you bought it. I'm not seeing the problem.

If your issue is "developers have only tested it with the latest device", that's not an issue Apple can correct.

This is simply not true.

I agree

That has not been my experience.

I also use a 1st gen iPad.

Not true, only the Retina Macbook Pro and Airs have soldered-in batteries/RAM, just like ultrabooks made by other manufacturers (ASUS, Dell, Acer).

It's a design decision. If you want an ultra thin/light machine then you have to compromise. If servicing the machine yourself is an issue then buy one of the 'regular' Macbooks.

Something's telling me the 'regular' MacBooks won't be around for very much longer.

Then the market will have spoken.

Sorry, with "new generation" I meant "next generation". There's no way the fullsize laptops are staying around any meaningful time (unless they survive on no-update life support like the Mac Pro)

Original iPad being junk? There's tons still in service. As a matter of fact, I'd imagine most who upgraded to the 2 or 3 did so due to additional features (camera, Retina), not the RAM.

Also, how do I upgrade the RAM in a Galaxy Tab or a Kindle Fire? I think the lack of upgradability is endemic to the tablet form-factor.

>how do I upgrade the RAM in a Galaxy Tab or a Kindle Fire?

You probably cannot, but iFixit gives the Fire a repairability score of 8 and the iPad a score of 2.

Be fair and link to the review:

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Kindle-Fire-Teardown/7099/2#s...

Main positives are for ability to remove the back side and use of Phillips screws: big pluses. However, primary iPad issues: glued on front glass, RAM, persistent storage: all true for Kindle as well.

My dear friend, that's the definition of compromise. Lighter/smaller vs. being very powerful. I carry my 15" MacBook Pro + iPad 2 in my bag and the next time would definitely go with the lighter product.

I'm not saying I like it. I would probably buy a Retina MacBook Pro if it wasn't "crippled" (for me), now I just use my 2009 MacBook Pro a year longer, hoping for a better rMBP next year. It's crippled for me, but the retina MacBook Pro does more things than anything 95% of the world could hope to do in 3 years (it's a beast).

I'm still going to buy the new Retina MacBook Pro, but I can currently afford to upgrade my laptop every year and gift away the old one. Plus I personally don't care much about recycling/the environment.

That doesn't mean it's not an environmentally unfriendly design.

Fantastic. Just a 5 hour round-trip to my nearest apple store. Why would I want to service it when I have access to that level of convenience?

You happen to have a stack of unused screens/batteries handy in the attic?

If no, you need to take that trip anyway. And a 5 hour trip every 3 years is better than carrying 60 grams more in your backpack for 800 days (in that 3 year period).

I'm not saying it's ideal, and I don't like it myself that much. I'm just saying it's a compromise most people accept.

Last time I needed to replace a screen in my laptop, I got one from ebay. They shipped it to my apartment.

You are still free to do that ... get a screen off ebay, get a case with batteries off ebay, you can still get a new motherboard with more soldered ram off ebay and have it shipped to your apartment as well.

I fail to see how that would change ...

Wow, you ordered something from ebay, and they shipped it to your apartment, and you replaced it, and all of this- from the moment you started looking at the auction, to completing the repair - was less than 5 hours?!

Amazing! Well, if that's the case, you've certainly made your point!

No. The full amount of time that passed was maybe a week. But it took no more than an hour of attention. Luckily, I had other things in life to do other than look at my broken laptop.

Apple also provides mail-in repairs.

Yes, you surely are representative of a large user base that self-replaces their laptop screens, one that should be catered by all major computer companies in their designs...

>Fantastic. Just a 5 hour round-trip to my nearest apple store. Why would I want to service it when I have access to that level of convenience?

5-hour round-trip when (and _if_) your laptop fails!

1) Oh, the humanity.

2) Oh, how I wish I had a 5-hour round-trip solution available to me...

3) Whereas your alternative would be what? Opening it yourself and using the stack of compatible batteries, screens, logic boards, touchpads etc you have on your house "just in case"?

4) Even if you had that crazy alternative, that applies to what percentage of laptop buyers? And what engineering tradeoffs would it take in that form factor to have user serviceable parts?

The user serviceability argument is tired. The readers of HN are disproportionally more willing and eager to service their own tech than the overall population. The only group this really isn't good for is the third-party repair companies.

Apple has made it clear they want a tight relationship with the customer at every step of the product experience. This is (from Apple's point of view) just strengthening that relationship.

Tight relationship at every step of the product experience => almost forcing the customer for paying a fucking premium for every little service you need for a device you have already paid for and own. Too bad educated people on HN still justify that kind of BS.

Should the price, quality of the product, quality of the service, or simply the way a company does business not jive with your principles... don't do business with that company.

We are criticizing the way the company does business. Ending the conversation with "Don't do business with the company" is a lousy cop-out.

No. You are criticizing a company's products under the assumption that everyone has the same needs as you. Weight, form factor, battery life and reliability are all more important to me than serviceability. I'm not alone in feeling this way.

If you value the ability to service a product more than the qualities I mentioned, you should choose to buy from a company other than Apple.

> We are criticizing the way the company does business.

I love the way Apple does business. They focuses on creating products that almost perfectly fit my needs.

Uh no - I didn't criticize the products. Where did you get that from? And why should serviceability be sacrificed for qualities like weight, form factor, etc?

Sent from my 2010 Macbook Pro...

  > And why should serviceability be sacrificed for qualities
  > like weight, form factor, etc?

Well, just see the teardown of Apple product and think, how much space would be needed for the replaceable battery (with casing), packaged RAM, etc.

And why should serviceability be sacrificed for qualities like weight, form factor, etc?

Because I will "service" my laptop maybe once, if even that many times, during its operational life. Meanwhile, I will enjoy its "weight, form factor, etc." every single time I use it.

Not everybody is going to prioritize environmental issues over all others. Those who have a problem with that can deal with it and get over it.

>And why should serviceability be sacrificed for qualities like weight, form factor, etc?

Because serviceability is a one-off process you do when the product fails or when you want to update it, whereas weight, form factor are things that make you buy a product specifically in the first place, and things you deal with every day.

>> I love the way Apple does business. They focuses on creating products that almost perfectly fit my needs.

This can also be interpreted as: I don't care if they make products that are not as environment friendly as some of the others in the market because their products are shiny and cool. Thanks for caring for the planet.

it can be interpreted as that; that's obviously how you interpreted it.

The irony is Apple's one of the greenest, if not by far the greenest, manufacturers in the world. Can you name any tech manufacturers that are better?

Apple outsources manufacture, so presumably you are claiming that Apple's suppliers, rather than Apple, are the greenest manufacturers in the world.

> Apple outsources manufacture, so presumably you are claiming that Apple's suppliers, rather than Apple, are the greenest manufacturers in the world.

You are operating on the assumption that Apple (or Dell, Lenovo, etc) have no say in the materials used, methods of construction or the materials not used in manufacturing their goods. They do—they don't just hand over a spec sheet and tell the supplier to get to work. They supply a detailed specification and set of drawings and likely engage their manufacturer to ensure their requests are feasible and/or meet particular national standards.

Apple outsources manufacture according to their _specs_.

Do you believe it goes like this:

Apple: We want 20,000,000 SSD drives.

Samsung: How do you want them?

Apple: Surprise us!

>> Apple's one of the greenest, if not by far the greenest, manufacturers in the world. Can you name any tech manufacturers that are better

I take it that you love to live in Apple's reality distortion field?

EPEAT's website has all the details you need: http://ww2.epeat.net/searchoptions.aspx

Reality distortion field?

http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/07/10/apple-responds-to-epea...

If the statements made are true, then there really is a problem with epeat. Just cause a company has many products certified, it doesn't mean that company is more green than Apple.

Interesting quotes:

"Companies like Dell have 171 products listed on EPEAT, but yet if you look on Dell’s Web site, none of their computers are even Energy Star Compliant."

"By its own admission, the EPEAT certifications are old.

“Part of it is expanding EPEAT’s global reach through the multiple certification [process]; as well as moving into new, additional products; as well as updating the EPEAT [certifications], because they’re a little long in the tooth. [Each of those] is a huge project on its own,” Christine Ervin, an EPEAT board member told GreenBiz in March."

"The hubbub over Apple pulling out of EPEAT is interesting because the products that were listed as gold products by the environmental organization are the same ones Apple is currently selling."

FREE is not a "fucking premium" you have to "pay" to get your device serviced! And this is for the lifetime of the product!

Not that Apple products require service, but when they do Apple provides a premium service- a global network of stores that will replace even motherboards in 30 minutes. (Something no other manufacturer does, and very important for travelers who don't want to send their computer back tot he continent where it was bought.)

Sure, I'm including the cost of Applecare in the price here, and calling the service free, but Applecare is cheap and very, very often Apple will replace things out of warranty, again, for free, because most of the time something does go wrong it is due to an actual defect (e.g.: the NVIDIA chips that were failing a few years back after being used for a couple years.)

3 years is the lifetime of the product for me. And these days after 4 years the product is generally obsolete.

There is no "premium" you have to pay-- you just get premiums service at the minor cost of the extended warranty (which I'm sure has nice margins, but still is the best deal out there.)

So how can you say Apple is overcharging when nobody else offers as good a deal?

EDIT: Of course pointing out hat Apple offers a free global service network - something others don't offer at any price- being a statement of fact, is being down voted by the apple hating hordes at HN. I know, I'm not allowed to point out facts that disagree with the predominant ideology. This just proves to me that this is not a place where intelligent discussion can take place, and you guy are just a waste of time.

I forgot to add - I'm a poor grad student. So whatever you are calling cheap, ain't cheap for me. If Applecare is cheap and 3 years is a lifetime of a product for you, then arguing with you about cost issues is simply pointless.

Free aint cheap for you? Well, then you're just penny wise and pound foolish. Like I said, the vast majority of the time you might need some service, Apple does it for free. If you think you're going to buy some other companies machine and keep it for more than 3 years with better success, then, well, you're simply not educated about the state of affairs in the industry.

Your premise is based on falsehoods, and you make assertions and then claim others are "uneducated" because they don't agree with your denial of reality?

And I'm from a poor country, with a tired economy, so it's even more expensive for me (not to mention Apple stuff costs around 40% more here, when the price is translated back to dollars).

But even I find the argument somewhat silly. If you are a "poor student" then don't buy it. It's like saying that a Porsche is too expensive for you. Well, then get something else.

have you tried using that "free global network" outside of the usa? at least here in chile, things that you would get replaced for free (like those damn frayed power supply cords) just don't get replaced. you have to buy new ones. i haven't had any free service here for macs (my partner uses them and i get to fix them) - am reduced to buying bits on ebay and doing it myself (and am proud owner of a diverse collection of obscure driver bits as a consequence).

I've tried in a second-tier country (Germany) and in an obscure country (Taiwan). While I have never entered an Apple Store, at least I have received solid and free service by all authorized resellers so far.

In this day and age I really don't see user serviceability for tired argument, it is a fact that lack of it is prejudicial and that is important to people both on and off HN. If it isn't there is something wrong.

I also don't understand how alienating the implications of how apple manages to get to this poor state of pissing on everyone and just going with shallow statements like this, erodes to: "The only group this really isn't good for is the third-party repair companies.". That is really past the point of this whitewash of a public relations exercise and a further non important apologetic unrelated point by itself.

You responded to a poster that takes the spin out of the statement and all you have is; you don't care it isn't done properly. You don't mind glued batts, say it. Let us not further this pathetic marketing spinfest. That, is very tiring and at this point really see through when it comes to speaking about apple like if any negative view on this brand is to be squashed by people that never even seen a spinning beachball while waiting for their computer to catch up... please.

Actually, it's not glued with epoxy resin or something like that. The iFixit teardown shows them removing it with a spudger. Hardly a difficult job for recyclers.

Online parts shops are already selling replacement batteries and can even replace it for you if you don't want to send it to Apple. That's the reality of the situation, if you care to do some research.

I've replaced the battery on an iPhone 3GS (also glued in) and it's not a big deal.

IIRC the problem is that there has to be absolutely no glue present for them to be able to recycle it. Even if they can just pry the batteries out, they need to be free of glue entirely.

Which seems very weird, given how many different layers and materials already go into a lithium battery. Why is a small dab of glue so problematic?

It's almost as if the recyclers are too lazy to keep their processes up to date. Nah, couldn't be.

Perhaps the glue can generates toxic derivatives in the recycling process that can nullify the benefits of the process by itself.

I would be interested in your source for that. Batteries are already made of very many different materials, it’s not as though glue is some sort of special material. (The label of, say, AAA batteries is glued to the metal container. The label of the Li-Ion battery of my Nokia phone is also glued to the plastic container. Maybe Apple uses a bit more glue – but glue shouldn’t be something completely new in battery recycling.)

I'd like a reference on that because it seems completely implausible, and would make recycling almost anything impossible because glue is used everywhere, on tape bits to hold cables in place etc.

And if the batteries has to be glue free, then practically all laptop and cell phone batteries can't be recycled because the plastic battery case is glued together.

Turns out I got a bit mixed up: the problem with the glue exists with recycling the glass front panels of the iPhone and family.

OK, that's more understandable, since I guess that glue has to be pretty solid and has to cover the entire surface. And that's also bad from a servicability perspective (have to buy the entire display assembly).

> that are not user serviceable or upgradable.

The Retina MacBook Pro is rated gold EPEAT, despite criticism regarding the glue used.

I seem to remember some components were glued in early versions of some iPhones/iPads, but were later silently updated to have no glue.

Tablets are not rated by EPEAT.

I think that's the number one thing people have been overlooking in this scandal: EPEAT is behind the times by not even offering relevant standards for Apple's most important product segments.

And if it offered relevant standards then it's quite likely that Apple won't qualify given how they are assembled.

If EPEAT offered relevant standards for tablets and phones, they'd have to face up to the realities of the modern manufacturing methods necessary to make powerful devices compact. And if not, it would be harder to single out Apple, because there would be plenty of other tablets and phones not qualifying.

Would any tablet manufacturer?

I'm sure there were plenty of people who bemoaned integrated circuits being less repairable than circuit boards, and then ASICS for being less repairable than single purpose DIPs. We really need to build everything out of wood, I guess.

Only if oil generally only needed to be replaced once or twice over the lifespan of a car, an oil change was traditionally so easy and convenient that most customers did it themselves, and the "expensive repair", in absolute terms, was only slightly more expensive than the retail price of oil change parts and supplies for otherwise comparable cars.

So no, not really.

"All eligible products" - in terms of product categories that EPEAT covers.

EPEAT registry does not yet include certifications for smartphones or tablets.

>"All eligible products" is a key, the new iPad with its glued in battery is not among them.

True, but OTOH, then can't go back in time and change it's design now that they decided to go back with EPEAT, can they?

>It's like bragging you made your automobile frame out of solid titanium with a carbon fiber shell, but ignoring the fact that you built the engine without any way to change the oil, so you're going to be throwing it out or sending it in for major costly service after a short time

Yes, if we ignore the fact that for the analogy to work:

1) Most people would not ever have the oil in their cars changed.

2) The car runs fine without an oil change for as many --or even more-- years as others cars that do permit oil change.

Buying a MBP Retina now, with Apple warranty repairs and/or Apple Care, you get as many years as you would use any Dell or IBM or other laptop.

Maybe some people would like to update RAM and HD and use them for 1-2 more years, but how many are those people? Judging from the giant success of Apple retail stores and the relative obscurity of iFixit and such sites/services, not that many.

I’m not sure, I think laptops have become longer lasting, more appliance like. I think that’s a very positive thing for the majority of people.

The only big issue I see is the battery which will definitely break. Those things have a limited lifetime (shorter than, say, five years you at least would want your laptop to make it) and there is nothing you can change about that.

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