Evolving my ergonomic setup (or, my laptop with extra steps)
ntietz.com
ntietz.com
As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues, this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves.
Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to doom scrolling.
doing a half hour at the gym 5 nights a week was like half of my weight loss routine basically.
- Increased muscle mass raises your BMR, enabling the same weight loss rate at a higher caloric intake
- Strength training combats your body's tendency to burn muscle as well as fat when in a calorie deficit, focusing the weight loss on the body component you want to get rid of (the fat).
Adjusting for equivalent level of activity, people carrying around a lot of extra weight tend to have commensurately more muscle from carrying that extra weight around (try wearing a 40kg weight vest day and night for a few weeks - you too will have to put on muscle just to get through the day).
It's generally considered to be a lot easier for an overweight person to get lean as a side-effect of getting strong, rather than the other way round.
It's obviously good for me (what kind of exercise isnt I suppose) but id probably feel better if I was getting out of it what I wanted, which i'm not and i've now been told I probably never will. But I cant stop because even though im not getting what I want, if I stop, in the long run, i'm probably even worse off. (Though, isnt everyone really.)
Id far prefer to move over to something like a bodyweight fitness program on a three day a week rotation, but I just cant do it physically until I undergo further evaluation and likely surgery, and would not have the energy to fit it in on top of my current physio regieme even outside of that.
I didnt mean "I wish it was only 30 minutes" in that I hate doing it, i'm just tired and it takes a lot of my time. I think at 30 minutes a day, it would just feel a whole lot easier to fit into my life, as opposed to building my life around it. I need a minimum now of about 1h30m before work, and after. Which means everything else in my life has to bend to accomodate that.
I do miss sessions occasionally, but I try not too because i'm only cheating myself, nobody else. I have a spreadsheet I use to keep myself honest.
I need to stop sitting, and revert to a hunter gatherer movement pattern of walking, running and crouching. Unfortunately i live in nyc and my desk job may kill me.
If we can use AI+VR/AR to put an end to desk work, it will dramatically benefit billions of souls.
Ah, we’re in very similar situations. I’m sorry to hear of your struggles. I unfortunately know too well what you’re enduring. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.
I had severe cervical myelopathy where my spine severely compressed my spinal cord, causing permanent damage. I underwent a cervical decompression and ACDF, but I’ll live with an incomplete spinal cord injury and its consequences for life.
On top of that, I have a herniated disc and Tarlov cysts in my lower lumbar spine. As if the cervical issues weren’t enough, I now fall randomly, making staying upright a constant challenge. The pain from both issues is so severe and relentless, I struggle to even explain it other than to note that it is "life altering."
I’m a few years out, and we’ve now discovered that my cervical spine is compressed again, along with nerves on the right side of my body. I started another physio program through my pain management team, but its not helping, more surgery is the only real solution. Still, I have to stick with physio because, as my medical team says, I need to be fitter than most people to manage my condition. Things are difficult enough that I don’t have the energy to question their guidance. What little energy I do have goes toward trying to stay employed.
> I need to stop sitting, and revert to a hunter gatherer movement pattern of walking, running and crouching.
I have a sit-stand desk and alternate between standing and sitting throughout the day for pain management. I’ll stand and pace for an hour, then sit for a while. It helps with pain in the moment, but I’m not sure it does much more than that.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
/i
I can highly recommend a book called _Built to Move_ [0]. It tells you to do a lot of things that many people consider common sense, like walk every day, eat vegetables, sleep 8 hours, etc. However, it also explains _why_ to do these things pretty concisely. The most impactful argument it made to me was you can't counteract sitting for 12 hours a day with any amount of exercise. You have to sit less and move around more.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1911868117
So... the end-game of ergonomic chairs might be no chair at all.
So the problem with "sitting in chairs specifically" is probably not the chair, but the fact that the chair facilitates longer "sedentary bout lengths". If this is correct, then the commenter suggesting to get up and move every so often is probably on point.
Indeed, it's actually what prompted me to go look over the document.
I remember, as a kid, when out and about and before getting into the habit of sitting in a chair all day every day, I would sit on the floor or on random objects, like stones or tree trunks in the countryside. I wouldn't be able to sit still for long periods of time and would need to at least change positions.
Whereas now, in my "ergonomic chair", I can sit for more than one hour at a time with minimal, if any, changes in position. Ditto for my couch (which wasn't marketed as "ergonomic" in any way).
That being said, I've tried using a computer in other positions, like putting the laptop on a coffee table and squatting or sitting on the floor in front of it, or having it rest on my thies while squatting. It gets tiring very quickly, especially in the shoulders and neck area.
So, in my case, what seems to work best is to get up regularly and walk around the room for a bit.
Two hypotheses:
1. I was just incredibly weak due to being sedentary and even a tiny amount of strength training released enough “get stronger” juice to my system that other muscles also got stronger.
2. Pain is a complex phenomena that relies on our bodies being properly calibrated and lack of any kind of strenuous activity mis-calibrated my pain system.
I’m more inclined toward hypothesis 2. Further life experience has led me to believe that our physical and psychological systems are very much dependent on existing in a specific, narrow milieu to function properly.
Lifting weights for one hour twice a week has alleviated my problems completely. I feel healthier than ever!
So even just doing a little bit of mobility exercises with light weights helps a lot.
1) Absolutely seek the advice of a good PT. It's not like going to a chiropractor where you'll get signed up for the "forever plan". You go, pay for a few visits or even just 1 and they will evaluate and give you things to do on your own. You're empowered directly to change your trajectory vs being reliant upon them week after week. In many states PTs have what is called "direct access" meaning they can see and treat you without any MD referrals being required. Also if you can afford it (HSA/FSA accounts are fine here), try to go to a "cash pay" PT that isn't burdened by death grip of our insurance system. You'll get better 1:1 attention and probably a much less overburdened PT.
2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
3) Sit on an exercise ball while at your desk and simultaneously think about your posture on a background thread. This will help you with core strength quite a bit over time. This is something most of us with desk jobs (and even most of us period) could use improvement on. She sees serious athletes who even have weak <random latin word> muscles hidden in spots they'd never think about.
4) Sometimes, like when it comes to pain in hands/wrists, you would want to seek out an occupational therapist (OT) instead of or in addition to a PT, who don't specialize in treating those types of dysfunctions.
Good luck getting/staying well!
disclaimer: This is not medical advice and I have zero formal training in any physical or medical science. Consult a professional. :)
This is the easy bit. Just drink A LOT. Pick a drink, any drink. Caffeinated or not, carbonated or not. Whatever you like drinking and fits your diet. Keep drinking it at the appropriate temperature. You can geek out on the drinkware, I got a Stanley Stein, which will keep an iced beverage cool for 8 hours easily.
Nature will make sure you have to get up more than once during the day =)
Come to think of it, I should start practising brushing my teeth with my non-dominant hand, but it might take 30 mins instead of 2, and waste a lot of toothpaste.
I bought an exercise ball for this purpose, but then learned that exercise balls can rupture under you with disastrous consequences. It may happen rarely, but I would rather not risk it.
What I discovered this year is hitting golf balls is the right amount of gentle strengthening and accidental PT. I started going to the driving range regularly like 4 months ago and my wrist pain is almost entirely gone.
So mostly this is to say everyone should keep trying and not give up. Every body and injury is different. You just have to experiment and stay active.
Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction, they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort.
As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair. Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
Looked amazing; IIRC the tricky part was how to wire it back to the computer when the chair was on wheels.
I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size, which adds up over 40h weeks.
If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
Fairly sure the signal to noise level isn't acceptable, unless you are willing to have electrodes permanently implanted in your skull. External BCI is a very basic at the present time.
The cost isn't in "splitting the PCB in half", it's in designing and connecting two halves. In sourcing (usually) high quality mechanical keys. Due to the small batch sizes there's also a good chance these are installed by hand, which is pretty labour intensive. Labour ain't cheap.
Labor is pretty cheap. It takes on average about 2 hours to build a keyboard. If there are no issues, it takes 1 hour. That costs about $25 total on average for labor.
The main cost is the 3d printed shells. We print PLA ourselves for cheap, but we outsource Nylon and Resin to China. These can cost anywhere from $150 to $200 for the entire thing.
The next highest cost are the PCBs. Our connectors, PCB columns for the switches, trackball PCBs, and the "brain" PCB, where all the logic processing happens, end up costing over $100-$150 total.
The total cost to build them ends up being anywhere from $250 (the absolute minimum barebones keyboard) to $400 for higher end boards.
Just some insight.
My take is that ergonomics are personal. Split keyboards work for me.
If your body is complaining, don't ignore it. Take actions. Split keyboard might be one action that helps.
I just hope the ingenuity will run out before their body reaches an unrecoverable state.
Their arms and neck hurt from using computers (specifically laptops) in their factory configuration.
They have reconfigured the physical layout to no longer cause pain when used.
Having multiple desks and desk heights and possibly multiple keyboards is probably what is needed. Not to mention stretching and strengthening.
I'd recommend OP go to physical therapy.
Context: I worked a number of years in the special effects (movies) world. I supported hundreds of graphics artists working in dark rooms 16 hours a day. Think movies like Independence Day, Star Wars, etc. Dozens of artists wore all kinds of wrist braces all day. They also had just-about every single crazy ergonomic keyboard you could possibly imagine, including various forms of split, slanted, cavity, whatever. And, of course, the fanciest adjustable chairs and tables. I remember a couple of the guys working on Independence Day having to have surgery on their wrists. Crazy. Just nuts.
Do you know who did not suffer from these injuries? Without fail, anyone who was actively involved in sports or physical training (going to the gym, lifting, swimming, etc.) AND took regular breaks.
In my own case, having seen just how bad things could get, once I started to feel soreness on my wrists I took matters into my own hands. I use the flattest possible keyboards and a thumb-operated trackball. I designed and made my own desk to guarantee proper arm and wrist ergonomics.
Laptops, for the most part, are evil. They force the wrist into a bad configuration. Not good for prolonged work if you care about your health.
Aside from that, take breaks and lift weights. Amazing things happen when you squat, deadlift, bench and shoulder press on a regular program (I recommend Starting Strength).
The vast majority of the crazy ergo setups out there are a waste of time. They do not address the root cause, which is treating your body like we are robots. We are not. We need moderation, rest and exercise. That's the solution or, at the very least, the way to mitigate and prevent injury.
I used to have very frequent pain episodes that would severely affect my ability to type on a keyboard, and now they are almost completely gone (and when I do get them, it's nowhere near as severe as it used to be).
That said, I still have a Model 100 (as the one depicted in the older pictures in the post) and the ergonomics are IMHO worth it, at least compared to some of the keyboards available, but in particular to builtin laptop keyboards (as you mention, everything is bad about laptops and I treat mine like a very portable desktop: if I need to be on the move, I take my keyboard and trackpad and use the laptop as a small display).
On top of that, the fact that it's programmable turned out to be much better than I had thought. My workflow is heavily customized now and I'm objectively a lot faster than I used to be before. The layers system on this keyboard takes a bit of getting used to (as does the layout itself) but, at least for me, once I got through the learning curve, it's so good I'm going to buy another one to have as a spare.
All of it, I concluded, at the end of the day, was just nuts. What they had to do was to both exercise and take meaningful breaks every couple of hours or thereabouts.
I need to go back and document my custom desk design. The approach I took worked very well.
I have a similar sized keyboard, and the trade off is basically - I move my hands around the keyboard much less, and in return I have to to press more keys. IE, to make the ( symbol I have to press 3 keys, and on a regular keyboard it's 2 keys (shift + 9), but you have to move your hand up and right to a place in the keyboard I don't even have. I'm basically on the home row all the time.
There's also various timing based mechanisms to get around this (ie, hold a key and it does something different if you tap it), but I find it all a bit fiddly and just do basic chording. YMMV.
The big trade-off is layout complexity. My layout[0] is extremely complicated...
[0]: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe...
and cheers to another lefty mouse user!
(My Elecom left-handed wireless trackball on the other hand is a thumb-oriented one. They take more getting used to as thumbs aren't quite as dextrous)
I also use the LG DualUp display at home, like it very much. Similarly, my home setup has the rain design mStand next to it.
Now, if the espresso machine could be also carried with the computer setup..
You may be interested in one of my current projects, I’ll post details when it’s done, but I stripped down a Crossland CC1 and am rebuilding it in an enclosure I can travel with.
I think we’d get along.
Corne doesn't have mouse support? My Lily58 does. (I thought they were basically the same expect mine has number keys.)
Cool mouse. I have a CST mouse, which is similar and works for me.
I wonder if there is some way to make the wood monitor mount/tray skimmer or more portable. The first search on Amazon for "desktop laptop stand" pulls up an Amazon basics stand that gives a little more confidence than the wood stand. Of course, it isn't diy.
That being said with that amount of effort in making an ergonomic workstation, perhaps the first move should have been a dock and a proper screen than can be positioned correctly.
I don't use them very often because I don't mind using a trackpad, but it is useful sometimes.
one complaint: I initially had no idea what a "hook and loop fastener" was, and even then I had to google it to confirm it was velcro