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Comment by coldpie | Hacker News Reader

> I would love if the cookie modals on each site became browser-level

They are, in a roundabout way. Hop into your uBlock Origin settings and enable the Cookie Banners and Annoyances filters. The modal gets silently nuked in the background and you can carry on with your browsing. Since you never consented, this ought to be functionally the same as Declining the banner.

The Kill Sticky bookmark works similarly, for crappy browsers that don't support uBlock Origin (eg iOS, Chrome for Android): https://www.smokingonabike.com/2024/01/20/take-back-your-web...

(Remember when web browsers used to treat their users first and implemented things like Popup Blocking, enabled by default? I miss those days.)

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As long as someone who does this is prepared to pay for every site they do it on (or forgo the site in the future), since targeted advertising often pays for the site they're visiting. Personally I would like to see ads improved, not removed, as I am unwilling to have 40 different subscriptions to 40 different websites all because every user disabled targeting.

> Personally I would like to see ads improved

Sure, sounds good. When you win that fight, let me know and I'll reconsider the ad blocker.

I doubt it. In my experience those that block ads feel entitled to the content without payment of any kind. They see ads as an intrusion rather than a fair exchange. No, I don't see you turning it back on regardless of how things go.

The average user doesn't even recognize that running a website literally cost electricity that must be paid for. Who pays for it? Who will carry the boats?

I pay literally hundreds of dollars a month to various content creators (eg Ars Technica, several local news outlets, many creators on Patreon, YouTube Premium) so kindly bugger off with your moralizing, thanks. I want browsing the web to not suck, so I use the tools I need to do that. If they want me to stop using these tools, they can make browsing the web not suck without them.

I'm glad you are willing to pay hundreds for that, at least you're consistent. But I think you are out of touch with how most people who use ad blockers think. People want free stuff. They are entitled. And when they have successfully suppressed the much less painful ad experience (no sign up, no credit card, works across all sites) they will be upset when they encounter sign up blocks and ask "why does every website want a subscription?!" not realizing that they themselves did it.

Now there may be some upsides to this. Shock content, designed to garner page views, may become less common. Perhaps content will get longer.

But I do not relish the annoyance of having to pay for every site. I despise that tech help on medium, for example, is often behind a paywall. I'd rather watch an ad.

I think fewer people would block ads if they were less miserable. So if you achieve your goal of making ads suck less, fewer people would block ads. I support you in your endeavor! But in the meantime, I'm not going to put up with a garbage web experience just because you asked me to.

I have used adblock since forever and I am absolutely willing to pay for quality content. I do actively support content creators by buying merch or funding their Patreon/Github.

Subscriptions suck because it is another thing to keep track off and many business models rely on you forgetting about them.

I think micropayments would be great but the problem is that you need to consume the content before knowing if it was really worth paying for.

My dream would be some kind of general internet subscription network set up as a non-profit public service where I pay a fixed sum every month and where all kinds of content creators, news sites, basically anyone could be in. The network would pay their members a split of my monthly fee based on the sites I visited by default but offer me up and downvote buttons on every page. Downvotes means the site is excluded from getting payments from me, upvote means double payment. (Of course I can't downvote all of them, the sum I pay is always fixed.)

So I have only one single monthly payment, I don't have to think about it much while still having a way to encourage high-quality content.

iOS is great for subscriptions - there’s a list in the App Store and I trust apple to allow me to cancel them if I’m no longer using them. It’s clear whether I’m signing up to monthly or weekly.

If your business can't survive without ads you don't have a viable business worth gifting to humanity.

Then put it behind a paywall or stop crying that people are viewing the content you put out to be viewed in public.

If nobody wants to pay it is totally fine if they go out of business. A lot of the be things of today's internet are caused by sites being able to live off ads revenue.

Hi adblock user here, who uses adblockers for 2 reasons: 1) Security, because ad networks can't be bothered to properly vet the stuff they shove down everyone's throats and 2) On mobile at least, its impossible to read most websites due to the sheer number of overlaid videos and other such BS.

That's it. That's not entitlement. I just want to actually read the stuff on a website. If websites could do ads that weren't trying to monopolize attention and/or trick me in to downloading malware, I'd definitely think twice about my use of a blocker on that website.

Sure there are some that feel like because its on the internet that's its free and they are entitled to it. But I'd wager most ad block users fall in to a similar camp as me.

Plus most adblocking extensions these days are also tracker blockers as well, so there's some element of privacy protection in play there as well.

I pay for a couple that I usually do visit, but I wouldn't be able to do the same for others.

Also, ads got ridiculous real fast, and started doing a lot more than just show a picture. This was really the breaking point for me. I happily pay for the couple mentuomed earlier, and donate to OSS projects even but more than that is unfeasible.

There are lists one can use for filtering out only the "bad" ads, mostly community driven. What we really need is a standard way of doing this, one that is enforced. But no ad company wants this, at least from what I gather.

Blaming ad blockers is the same as blaming video game piracy, you aren't tackling the real issue. The issue is that ad blockers provide a better service than not having one (i.e. not filling your screen and preventing you from seeing the content, not being a security nightmare, etc...), even if you need to go through the trouble of getting one. Alas, in this case it generates a perpetual cycle, which further puts people over their breaking point.

I guess what I'm really saying is that ad companies, and websites filling their pages with them, did this to themselves. The public tolerates it to a certain point, but I wouldn't see it it's their fault if normal web usage continues to deteriorate.

dont put your product on public display if you don't want it to be seen for free.

> The average user doesn't even recognize that running a website literally cost electricity that must be paid for. Who pays for it? Who will carry the boats?

Running a retail store also has costs associated with it, including, yes, electricity.

Yet if I walk into a store and leave without buying anything, do I feel like I owe the store owner anything?

No. That's not how that works, nor is that how it should work.

There’s a difference between browsing in a shop and reading content online. It’s much more like going in and sitting in a book shop, reading a book and leaving.

No, it's not. It's more like an online bookstore mailing you a copy of a book for free. The only catch is that they also sent a book full of ads and directions that say: after every page of the book, look at an ad. Then, when I receive these, I don't even take the ad book out of the package, read the actual book, and send them both back.

You can imagine why Amazon never decided to go with this business model.

> Who pays for it? Who will carry the boats?

Not my problem. The web existed as a medium before advertising and it will continue just fine without it.

Get a better business model and stop crying like a spoiled child.

The web has been plagued with ads for decades. Pop up blockers were the old thing, and everyone knows the screenshot of the internet explorer loaded with toolbars.

Some people will contribute money. Wikipedia doesn't have ads (except occasional banners to donate).

I run an adblocker. It’s not because I don’t want to pay, it’s because there are more ads than content.

I don’t want to dedicate 4.5 inches of screen space to ads including videos, banners, and often time inappropriate ads. If you want to do 3rd party banner ads, be my guest, but the minute there’s more of them then content I’m going to turn them off.

Well at least you agree with the position that Ads is not inherently evil.

That is almost certainly the opinion of only a tiny loud minority. Most people who run adblockers do so to protect themselves from abusive ad practices, not all ads out of some moral reason.

Commercial sites brought ad blocks upon themselves with malvertising an insanely obtrusive ads.

It blows my mind how people are so accepting of the status quo, especially on mobile, where many news sites will put a sticky ad banner on the top, throw a video ad on the corner (with a close button that's only 1/8" across, of course), and then every paragraph (which is only like 2-3 sentences) is separated by an ad. At any given moment, well over half my screen is ads, even after managing to close the video ad in the corner.

Browsing the web on a phone, I wonder how many bandwidth and battery is being used just to show ads.

Get yourself firefox mobile and have ublock origin on your phone :)

I already do, but that only blocks ads in Firefox. If I open a link in an app, it often uses some browser widget that's effectively Chrome.

You can also block ads through dns like with blokada. That even stops ads within apps! In many cases.

though I do 90% of my mobile browsing in firefox, sometimes I end up using the pop-up browswer widget. Looking at my data use... the uBO-less widget has used more data than firefox, despite being used much less often. non-firefox mobile users must blow through their data plans...

Does the same thing apply to every TV commercial? Are you robbing the producers if you go the bathroom? Or every ad sponsored newspaper or magazine?

I dunno, the website chose to monetize that way. Arguably we don't need so many low quality adspam sites on the web anyway and if most of them died, the signal to noise ratio would get better. Advertising and SEO is a scourge that doesn't need to be protected, IMO. Let them die...

I agree that 40 different subscriptions is unreasonable. I use adblockers because I think user-hostile advertising is also unreasonable.

I would happily pay a subscription that gets divided among whatever sites I visit. In the absence of that option, I pay for a subset of sites and freeload the rest. My solution seems ethical to me since if everybody picked a random subset, most sites would get their revenue.

I think your approach is reasonably ethical. I'm not all that concerned with ethics; rather the continued funding of the websites we like. One important element of your first hypothetical is that a donation model probably won't suffice, websites will need to be able to set their price based on their costs, so it can't be evenly split between the sites you visit.

So I think the experience would be like you add $5 to your browser, then as you visit sites it asks you either to pay a one time access fee or subscribe for continued access.

But this would be the case for every site, right, because they all cost money. I wonder how many distinct websites the average user visits and if they're willing to pay that many parties that much money.

I guess my conclusion here is that bad ads should be punished by some mechanism. Unfortunately making the most targeted, helpful (and they are helpful, by the way, when done right they show you something you like) ads often incentivizes bad ad production practices like data farming and data marketplaces. I think that has to be attacked legislatively or, in your example, by direct payment.

But I think the reality of an internet gated by payments is a bigger deal than people appreciate.

(PS Not that this is usually my line of argument, but it also has the unfortunate effect of tying someone's economic status to what they can access, leading to greater isolated groups and class hierarchies in content)

the problem with ads targeted to what I might like is they lead to more purchasing and spending, which is not without cost. something you won't buy without seeing an ad for it is probably an impulse purchase, and those are somewhat predatory.

it seems more reasonable to me to only advertise like that when a user signals they're interested in a particular type of product, not passively all the time.

Yeah people think of advertising as a "free" way to fund things, but companies wouldn't pay the advertisers if they weren't making a profit off of it, so in theory the customers are still paying for the website, but it's only some of them paying for the vast majority that don't pay a dime, and everyone else is just getting irritated by the ads for no benefit to the website.

> websites will need to be able to set their price based on their costs

Most businesses don't really get to do that. They set their price based on what customers are willing to pay. Then they try to keep their variable costs low enough to be profitable, and get enough sales to cover their fixed costs.

> tying someone's economic status to what they can access

An option there is subscriptions for those willing to pay, ads for the rest. Youtube does that, for example (and it's one of the sites I pay).

I don't really want "helpful" ads. I just want to be left alone. I don't want corporations trying to manipulate me, and I don't want distractions from whatever I'm trying to read, because I'm distractible enough as it is. If I want to buy something, I can search for it, and when I do, I don't want to see it everywhere I go for the next month.

Scroll tried this but they failed: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/24/21192048/firefox-better-w...

It would be so amazing if this was your ISP bill, but our society seems to hate elegance.

I guess we can look forward to a new "unbundling" campaign like they tried with video streaming services, targeting a paid umbrella subscription that covers multiple sites.

A Lot of us put our content/blogs up for free. I understand some people do this for a living but not everyone needs to go no the advertisement gravy-train

Have you considered why it's called an HTTP Request?

That's what it is. A request to get sent some bytes. It's up to the web server whether or not to send the bytes.

Once it decides to do so, what I choose to do with those bytes is, broadly speaking, up to me. Copyright sets some legal restrictions there, but none of those restrictions apply to deleting some of the bytes.

Perhaps the webmaster had some ambition to make some money by sticking some bytes on my computer and using them to track me without my consent. That's for them to decide, me? I'm deleting those bytes. That monetization plan is not in my interest. Perhaps they can come up with something which I'm willing to play along with, perhaps they can't.

Generally I've found that the websites which place onerous limits such as paywalls on byte access, are not worth spending my time on. Yet somehow, the Internet remains full of useful bytes and I spend many an hour productively browsing them. It's a magical place.

My browser is happy to load images from a third-party site, i.e. advertising. My browser also blocks javascript from third-party sites, i.e. stalkerware. As long as you keep conflating ads and user profiling, you will never convince me with your arguments.

I'm not responsible for making a web site owners business model work for them. I'm just filtering data that I downloaded from a publicly-available because I don't want advertisers tracking me around the web and profiling me.

Advertisers are welcome to treat me like a magazine from days gone by with lots of static images of their products and no code involved. If they don't like that, then I'm okay with going back to the pre-commercial web where people with passion built websites without trying to be the next big thing.

You're just following the FBI guidance and not allowing untrusted software to run on your computer. If that is a critical part of a business model, the business needs to change it's behavior, not me.

Plus side, hosting has never been cheaper.

Most of the websites I visit are selling something or sold me something. For the ones that aren't, I would consider a subscription service. If we're talking about something like an inexpensive web search or a subscription for a family of news websites or something. I'd totally pay for a good set of general/car/entertainment news sites. Definitely entertained that. But they'd have to nuke this nonsense about trying to get metrics and tracking and stuff.

Nearly all ads on the web are scams. It's ok to block scams.

I'm going to keep blocking ads because its legal and it improves my life. If sites can't work around that with their business model that is not my problem and I don't feel the least bit guilty about it.

And the idea that the alternative to ads is 40 different subscriptions is laughable to me because there are not even 4 sites on the entire internet that I'd pay (even a small) subscription fee to use regularly, let alone 40.

The vast majority of sites I use on the internet are basically distractions of one form or another and I only ever use them because I can do so for free with a limited amount of annoyance. Any cost at all to them whether that's a subscription fee or obtrusive ads means I just stop using that site.

> As long as someone who does this is prepared to pay for every site they do it on

I've got not problem paying 1/10th of a 1 cent as a microtransaction to read the page and I'll happily do so when that sort of system is available.

> I am unwilling to have 40 different subscriptions to 40 different websites all because every user disabled targeting.

And that's a false dichotomy. The natural alternative to a system where publishers are paid per view by advertisers is a system where publishers are paid per view by users (either directly or via some intermediary), in the same amount as before.

Or, how about the people who make websites go right ahead and fold business if they can't stop crying about others not being forced into tracking to fund them. Nobody asked for any given website to get built or to deliver content, and its owners having decided to do so does not at all in any way give me or anyone else the obligation to let ourselves be pervasively, almost parasitically be tracked in all our activity across the web.

Avoiding said tracking is not in the least bit "unethical" and digital media sources can find other ways to make money, or just disappear if they don't like being circumvented in their ad tracking efforts. Only a badly distorted SEO/ad bro mind would consider users avoiding tracking to be somehow immoral by the users. Should then it also be unethical to not view ads on video media too?

Sounds like the people hosting sites like that have a severe skill issue with their business model. That's a them problem.

I was there in the era when hitting a website on the wrong day spawned so many pop-overs and pop-unders that it ground your browser to a halt. And that by trying to close any one of them, another 10 windows were launched with more ads. Eventually bogging down the computer so severely (single core FTW!) that your only option was to conduct a hard restart, your unsaved data be damned.

I feel for those businesses who try to build a revenue stream off of advertising, but that well has been permanently poisoned for me. If I cannot sanitize a website of its maliciously user-hostile behaviour, I will simply refuse to make use of it.

And I encourage everyone to join me. The sooner advertising of all kinds die, the better.

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