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Comment by Freak_NL | Hacker News Reader

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US?

Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint?

Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

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> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US?

American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands.

European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular saws instead.

I suspect America also has a lot more woodworkers; many of their buildings have wood frames, wood siding, and bitumen-over-wood roofs.

Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have garages, but they are too small for these saws and usually lack power). In my experience apartments in Europe are bigger than in the US but I've haven't seen enough apartments in Europe to be confident in that.

How is availability and cost is raw lumber in Europe?

Good and fairly high, respectively. That doesn't stop people from woodworking though.

Americans on average have much more living space than Europeans: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Average-floor-area-per-c...

Average is not a good measure - more people in the US live in larger single family houses than in Europe. However those in Europe who live in single family houses have about as much space.

I'm not talking about apartments, I'm talking about single family homes.

If you look at the Google Maps marker for New York and go 90 minutes drive north, you get this: https://maps.app.goo.gl/RY9ebS6vcD5w8cQA6

San Francisco and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/wJQx9BV5C2d7C6iR9

You look up Berlin and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/7javF29PE1p6F4rb9

Look up Paris and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/nyHut9xD4eAZnhdn9

You look up London and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VnEWsmNHSC5pc9H98

Europe's higher population density gives them has great, walkable cities, practical public transport, good cycle-ability and plentiful bus stops.

The trade-off is smaller homes and less parking. There's a reason nobody over there drives an F-150 truck.

The space between houses is smaller, and the houses have much smaller garages. However the house themselves are similar size.

> the houses have much smaller garages

Yes, this is what I mean when I say few Europeans have the two- or three-car garages needed for a table saw to be practical.

They really aren't. My house is a 1250 sq ft 4 bedroom house. It gets comments from friends and family for being relatively large for a 4 br here, since the norm is 1000 sq ft for a 4 bedroom. Similar style houses in the US seem to be about 2000 sq ft from a property search.

Yes, even in a lot of south american countries, for a upper middle class perspective, 1000 sq ft for a four bedroom house is a bit on the small side.

In the US, a 1200 sq ft or smaller home would be a post ww2 "starter home", usually 2 or 3 bedroom. Homes of this size are pretty much not being built anymore, the average size of a new home in the US has been around 2500 sq ft for decades now. The median size of all existing homes in the US sits just north of 2000 sq ft.

Why are circular saws less prone to injury?

At least one hand is operating a circular saw and there’s often a spring loaded guard that snaps into place when the saw isn’t sawing. I’m sure plenty of people hurt themselves with circular saws, but as more of a hands-on tool you are very aware when using it. It is not nearly as precise or easy to use with large jobs as a table saw, however.

I don't claim they are (or aren't, I don't know either way)

I'm just saying you don't have tablesaw injuries if you don't have tablesaws.

On a circular saw, the hand in motion maneuvers the cutting tool. On a table saw, it pushes the thing being cut. Either saw's blade sometimes grabs the material and kicks it back. If your hand is on that material, it can also be sent in an unexpected direction.

(This is just one scenario. Both tools are capable of unwanted removal of body parts.)

Lot of replies here but none of them have really hit the mark. European table saws are fundamentally different than American table saws, where the entire section left of the blade slides forward. Culturally it seems Europeans believe this is "safer" than the American style and therefore they don't need the blade safety mechanism. Personally I think that's nonsense, and apparently so do some of the companies because they've developed their own mechanism that they only use on their priciest saws.

Woodworking YouTube has changed this a bit. Since American creators are so widespread, everyone has gotten exposed to SawStop and I know at least a couple years back people were trying to import American-style table saws instead of the local European-style because that's what YTers have. I don't know if it was regulatory or what that has prevented the former from being more available in Europe.

Interesting seems like the European version is essentially an integral sled? That does seem much safer and inherently keeps hands away from the blade when used properly so a saw stop mechanism might not actually add a huge amount of safety real safety but is still a nice final safety measure. A lot of US literature and videos I've seen are heavily suggests using a sled whenever practical.

Also dados are prohibited (more or less) in the EU. So yes, there are regulatory issues. And btw, I just cannot find a sawstop to buy here (at a human price)

I'm not sure if they still make it, but Festool and Sawstop are owned by the same parent company, Festool sells the TKS-80 saw in Europe that has the Sawstop tech.

Right, dados are one of the things that baffle a lot of European woodworkers, myself included. Not that they don't seem useful; just a little on the iffy side of safety.

the "american" style was literally imvented by a german company

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US?

Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required.

In 2015 Bosch introduced a system that did essentially the same thing as SawStop, but with a slightly different mechanism. SawStop sued in the US and won against Bosch.

Since 2017 SawStop is part of Festool, which explains why their tech is slowly making their way into Festool products. For example, the TKS 80 has the SawStop functionality built in. But at an MSRP of ~2.500€ it’s not really a hobbyist machine.

Not true. They are widely available and used in Australia.

Bosch REAXX has a significant advantage, that being it is non-destructive to the saw blade when it activates. All you have to do is press a reset button and you are back to work. Not having the option of buying this tech instead of SawStop's in the US was a net negative for consumers, IMO.

> Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required.

I think it's more regulatory. There are regulations in the EU around things like blade stop time that products designed for the USA do not meet.

One reason could also be that the US woodworking culture treats a table saw as an essential tool (especially the basic table saw, without a sliding table), while elsewhere track saws are used more, it seems.

If you run commercial production, then you do need a table saw (but one with a sliding table!), but for hobby work you might as well spend some time for track saw setups and be much safer.

I think you're probably right.

I have an older Delta table saw and recently decided to sell it because a miter saw + track saw + some other tools you need anyhow does nearly everything a table saw would do, but uses space way more efficiently.

My table saw is space efficient because I also use it (covered) as a table in the middle of my small shop, sometimes to support work I cut with a track saw. And I added a router table to the extension, which just disappears as part of the table. It's a space dense with utility.

Table saws are very common in Europe in hobby circles as well. If you take woodworking in school you'll learn to use it along with other tools. Also, you usually build the sliding table and other jigs yourself using the tracks on every table saw. They're called T-tracks, there's a couple different common widths.

They're very different tools, and neither is inherently safe. You can absolutely have kickback-like issues with a track saw if you're not careful when making plunge cuts, for instance.

A track saw is more convenient and arguably safer when breaking down a huge piece of plywood. After that it's no table saw replacement. You can't easily do repeated cuts of identical stuff width, you can't work on small parts, you can't make most of the common jigs, you can't do dadoes or box joints, etc.

I regularly do repeated cuts of identical stuff width with my tracksaw, so I'm not sure why you'd think you can't easily do that.

About the only thing the tracksaw is not good for are long cuts of narrow stock. And yes, dadoes, but I do those with a router and arguably you should not even try to do them with a table saw, unless you are trying to hurt yourself.

Implying that because of the possibility of kickback a tracksaw is comparably dangerous to a track saw makes no sense.

Track saws struggle with any repeated cuts.

I recently made a cutting board with many tiny pieces - 0.5" square, several hundred of them. With a table saw it's "run pieces through, rotate 90 degrees, run pieces through" - not fast but WAY faster than having to move the track saw every time, and that second cut is impossible with a track saw.

On a table saw I can do crosscuts. I barely ever use my miter saw (in favor of my crosscut sled on my table saw) unless I'm trying to keep the table saw fence positioned somewhere precise and need to make a crosscut in the middle of my workflow.

And speaking of the fence: The table saw is a precision instrument. The track saw is not. I set up my table saw fence once, eight years ago. I have never had to adjust it or look again. If I want something an inch thick I set the fence to an inch and make the cut and it is correct. I don't have to draw a line on my workpiece, measure, and make a mark. I don't need to measure the final piece with calipers to see if I got close enough to actually an inch. I can work quickly and efficiently.

Then there's bevels - am I going to buy a new rubber track guard for every different angle I want to cut, or am I just going to use my table saw and tilt the blade? If I want to be precise and always use a zero clearance insert, at least I can make those myself rather than having to buy rubber molding.

I own a fairly nice track saw (Festool TS55) and a pair of good-quality tracks for it. I own several expensive chunks of metal which profess to do things such as align the track at a 90 degree angle to my workpiece which I am unable to trust or even to get working consistently. I'm not talking "oh, this is 89.7 degrees", I'm talking "I can see with my eyes that's not square, guess I'll go get a combo square and a pencil".

I have owned devices such as the Kreg jig which aim to make it easier to do repeated rips with a circular or track saw and while if you don't own a table saw they're better than nothing, they're nowhere close to the precision, reliability, or ease of use of a table saw.

I love my track saw. I hate trying to pick up and manipulate 4x8' or 4x4' pieces of wood on the table saw and the track saw makes my life much easier - but that initial breaking down is all I ever use it for, because for every other task the table saw is dramatically better.

Sawstop wasn't available for purchase in the EU until last month. The only version that was available was the very expensive Festool table saw, though they are both from the same company. I'm currently waiting on my compact Sawstop to be shipped from the first batch.

Did you have a problem buying? I'm currently online trying to purchase but it's showing error stating no address has been provided

Table saws are less common in Europe for hobbyists, also things like dado blades are effectively banned, which means we actually use the blade guards that come with saws. We tend to use routers for a lot of the things Americans will use a table saw for.

I believe they just don't market them there, probably not interested in confirming to all the different regulations for different markets, etc. I know some folks have imported them, but I don't think they are sold directly. I think Laura Kampf claims to have one of the first SawStops in Europe.

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