The reality of the Ouya console doesn’t match the hype
penny-arcade.com
penny-arcade.com
I'd like to add one more thing as well, but don't want to go back and edit: I find that Ouya, by having a -functional- hardware prototype that serves most of the core features it will promise as a piece of hardware, is already well advanced beyond the state of most kickstarter projects. The most frustrating thing for me about kickstarter is how many projects are -conceptual- at the kickstarter phase.
I refuse to give someone money because they're unwilling to take the risk to build the first version of something with their own sweat, blood, and tears before begging for cash. Why should I pay you just because you have an idea? Show me that you can fully implement it. Better yet, show me that you're done and you just need to raise the cash to make it happen. There seems to be something in the start-up world these days that just having the idea and the merest inkling of how to achieve it should be all that it takes to get people to throw money at you.
A gaming platform is only as good as its games.
Right there is part of your answer. Apple already had a large user base and a great demand for third party apps, both from users and developers.
OYUA has none of that.
Considering that they already have prototypes together, they've already apparently got something to show. As the article points out there are flaws with what they're offering and questions that need answering.
I'm sure most of the questions and queries can be answered satisfactorily, but the crux is the lack of confirmed titles, which they can't fix themselves.
Saying that you could just develop for Windows (or even desktop Linux will have a bigger install base) if you desire openness is a very valid point, but there is one caveat.
This thing ships with a controller, people who are used to playing action type console games prefer to use a controller for pretty much every game type including FPS. Sure you can plug a joypad into a PC but in my experience this is a shockingly rare thing to find people doing "in the wild".
I have a feeling us on HN are sceptical of this device precisely because we want it to succeed in principle but have been burned so many times in the past by "magic open tech" that fails to live upto our expectations.
They might be able to flog some units in the emerging markets, but they better make sure they are making a profit on the hardware because 99% of those customers are not going to be buying legit games from your app store.
I thought the OUYA was a great idea after seeing the Kickstarter video, but I'm glad there are enough skeptics around to mention that pesky reality.
The great thing is that pretty much every game on steam supports it and even recognises it as a 360 Pad so game tutorials will display the correct labels and colours for buttons. Works great under Linux too.
What surprises me though is the number of people to whom this ability is surprising "You're playing a PC game with a joypad? What? how?"
It's also surprising that even gaming specialist manufacturers like alienware don't offer joypads as an option when building a system.
There's nothing wrong with civilly expressing skepticism about overly-ambitious claims. This article seems to do a good job of doing just that.
The gaming community really likes jumping on hate bandwagons. I don't think it's productive to drive this brand into the ground before it has its chance.
Big swaths of the tech world are like this as well. As a programmer of over 3 decades, I'm wondering if there's something about computer related tech fields that tends to promote unkind, amoral, and short-sighted outlooks on the world. Alternatively, there could be an attraction for the segment of the populace with unkind, amoral, and short-sighted outlooks on the world. Not everyone in tech is like that, of course, or I'd leave. (This is not to say the PA guys are like that.)
Then there is a segment of those in tech who think that whatever they can get away with, they should get away with.
Don't forget drama.
In the mean time, get back to work on your own projects and stop worrying so much about what other people are doing.
It seems like they would be better served (i.e., able to actually deliver a product at the price point they're pushing) by building a really awesome controller to play games on the phone you already own, and making an SDK to extend games to take advantage of it.
I acknowledge some points in the article. It will probably be hard/impossible to make a living making games for this console alone. And I was also already wondering if they have any chance finishing the software in time when they are only starting now. But if they manage to release it in time for that price I wouldn't care much - for 99$ a console that's rootable - that alone sounds good enough for buying to me. Also I think his worries about porting the input of games for a controller are overblown, that's not exactly the hardest part when writing a game.
How on earth would one play "cut the rope" on a controller?
I agree though that it might well be worth the $99 just for use as a media box and to play old arcade ROMs on but the question is whether that is a viable business model for them?
The Pandora can do all of the things Ouya dreams about (already has done it), has a working software eco-system, has an app-store in place, and heck .. the Pandora even has its own development tools onboard. All you need to develop for Pandora is available: on the Pandora.
So I think this Ouya thing is one thing altogether (Hype circle), but the Pandora .. its not getting the love it deserves. Honestly, I couldn't be more excited for a next-generation gaming platform architecture than I am for the Pandora ..
The real question to me is this - can this team pull it off? If yes, then I don't care about the state of the project, only that the team is invested in it. If the team cannot, then yes, that's a real problem. However, I don't see anyone talking about the team at all.
I could easily see this shipping on time but with tons of bugs in the hardware or shipping 10 months late because they didn't realize how complicated it was.
Even the Elevation Dock KickStarter, which was the first KickStarer golden goose, has had serious delays and they are building a simple iPhone dock.
Kickstarter defined.
This is a bunch of commodity hardware thrown into a box surrounded by very sketchy details surrounding development,software and the controller.
Sounds like they have hardware experience
The console industry is littered with spectacular failures of this type, and I'm before I believe this one is worth investing actual money in I'm going to need more than Yves Behar, Julie Uhrman who's "been in the game industry for years" (exclusively on the software side), and several mysterious people who refuse to even be named.
Especially in the time frame cited; I've worked in both fields and unless they have experienced full-time engineers and developers working on this right now there's no way they're making the deadline. The "we have a prototype" is at best a vague indicator of progress. Do they have a board designed? Has it been fabricated? Do they even have android running on the hardware they plan on using?
If not, are they using off-the-shelf boards? I can't find any Tegra 2 OTS boards available remotely within the price point they list, much less Tegra 3.
And the "some of them would get fired if we tell you who they are" is more disconcerting than assuring. If they do have people with engineering/manufacturing/software development expertise these people do not believe in this project enough to leave their day job. That should speak for itself.
EDIT: for example, see http://trimslice.com/web/order-direct. Their Tegra 2 board with more modest hardware specifications is only available at more than twice the price point touted for Ouya. Note that this doesn't even include the cost of the custom bundled controller, which is itself a substantial hardware undertaking.
Seems to me the controller might be the hard part -- more UX testing, less standard parts. But I'd love to hear from someone who's solved this kind of problem.
First, I've been unable in my (admittedly, cursory) research to discover any prebuilt systems that even come close to their promised hardware specs. So until someone proves me wrong by posting a link to an OTS solution even close to what they're promising, lets assume that the system needs custom design.
This is a whole massive can of worms. I have some experience with hardware design (though not as much as a full-blown EE), and I'd ballpark hardware design alone as a half-year effort with multiple full-time EEs. And that's a best-case optimistic estimate. People who work in software don't seem to understand how hard this stuff is. It's not like you can simply take another schematic, slap the new parts you want on, delete the old parts, autoroute it and call it a day. With parts of this complexity there's a whole host of other design issues that come out of the woodwork. High-frequency switching means if one of your autorouted traces is longer than another, you're going to have timing issues. Crosstalk between layers, capacitance and inductance of the wires themselves can wreak havoc on your busses. You need to intelligently design the ground planes, separate your signals (analog and digital components), etc etc etc.
These are only the issues I'm aware of. I'm sure people experienced with creating boards this complex can fill me in on more. It's not like a hobby arduino project - hooking up traces to debug problems can increase the capacitance of a line enough to cause a new set of problems.
This isn't really directed just towards you, but it feels like a ton of people here are missing how difficult hardware design with components this complex is.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/127889823/Asus_TF300T_B1_B...
http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/127047344/10_1_TEGRA3_1_32...
http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/127258720/MID_Laptops.ht...
Drop the camera, the touch screen, the battery and the enclosure, I bet you I could get a deal for these boards well under $50 for 10,000+ lots.
Also: right now, they'd have no problems getting a bridge loan for a few million dollars to start the manufacturing rolling.
http://www.amazon.com/Transformer-TF300-T-B1-BL-10-1-Inch-Ta...
Price point: $384. With an LCD. This isn't even close to comparable to the product they're trying to make. So to close the gap, you say:
> Drop the camera, the touch screen, the battery and the enclosure, I bet you I could get a deal for these boards well under $50 for 10,000+ lots.
Engineering tightly integrated consumer electronics products like these isn't a menu. You can't just "unplug" the monitor "remove" the battery and then repackage it. Redesign of a processor board of this complexity isn't a picnic; it takes significant EE expertise.
And with an initial price point almost 4x that Ouya promises? Please. This isn't "comparable" at all. You want a comparable piece of hardware? See http://trimslice.com/web/order-direct. Twice the price point with significantly less horsepower. That's what people are probably going to get in the end with this project.
Secondly, the screen, battery, and about 50% of the time the camera, are NOT integral on the board. They plug into headers. I'm not sure who's misinformed you of this, but not everyone designs like Apple. And yes, I can "just remove the screen, battery, and likely the camera." I just don't plug them into the headers. How many EEs do you think are working in China for these manufacturers?
Thirdly, it's interesting that you have both insight into the margins of several different hardware manufacturers and also into the internal R&D discussions of Ouya to know that they are going to end up selling a $200 Tegra2 instead of a $99 Tegra3 device. Gosh, they should've just hired you, no?
Why so aggressive arguing that they can't do it? It's one thing to be suspicious (and I, am suspicious as to their ability to hold reasonable overall margins unless they intend to make over 50k of these), it's another to spread FUD that something is impossible.
> Thirdly, it's interesting that you have both insight into the margins of several different hardware manufacturers and also into the internal R&D discussions of Ouya to know that they are going to end up selling a $200 Tegra2 instead of a $99 Tegra3 device. Gosh, they should've just hired you, no?
This is just silly. I point out a system on the market with much closer specs to what Ouya is trying to accomplish (no screen, similar outputs, etc) and point out that's still twice their price point. I have seen no evidence from Ouya, you, or anyone else that they can do anything different. Until then, I'll remain skeptical that they'll deliver on their promises.
> Why so aggressive arguing that they can't do it?
It'd be awesome if they pulled it off; I'm just pointing out that they probably won't. And if I came off as aggressive, it's because of all the armchair engineers around here who think consumer hardware design is a walk in the park that can be completed on a whim in an instant.
> it's another to spread FUD that something is impossible.
Go find where I said "impossible". My entire post just points out how unlikely it is this project is going to deliver what it promises.
Seriously, if you are an android dev you'll need to retool your controls, not port the entire game from one language/platform to anther. That is one of the easier problems to solve as far as making this product a hit.
Really, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Gamestop buys the Ouya so that they can get in on the digital revenue before their whole business model shuts down. Why do you think Amazon has their own android app store?
Software sales are obviously going, going, gone digital, so Best Buy, Amazon, Gamestop are going to have to become digital stores to sell software/games or they become irrelevant like record stores did a decade ago.
It might be too late, but don't be surprised if BestBuy/Gamestop buy or build something just like the Ouya.
Regards joysticks, the only games that I can think of that would be better on a joystick would be flight simulators which probably partly explains the lack of "serious" flight sims available on consoles.
Ouya is the 2nd $99 Android "TV device" I've seen pop up on Kickstarter. The first project was essentially a Mini PC re-branded for Americans (so I passed on it).
Ouya has two hurdles:
1) repackaging it in a new container and tossing in a controller all for the same price. Possible? Sure.
2) Android is such a fast moving platform that their device could be outdated/outclassed by the time they finish shipping. If Google had a clue, they'd repackage the Google TV as a gaming station before Xmas.
That could explain why they asked for $1M on kickstarter rather than taking a chunk of investment the usual way.
Perhaps you could come up with some talking points that address the misgivings presented in the article, rather than attacking the author? Possibly something a bit more substantial than just comparing this project to one done by incredibly talented engineers, and backed by the company that had already made world's best selling computer.