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Comment by myrmidon | Hacker News Reader

> Try testing for internationally recognized borders and the situation is same for the Israeli invasion and Russian invasion.

I do not understand your point. Ukraine has borders that were recognized by Russia itself (Budapest Memorandum). They violated those borders when they annexed Crimea-- their excuse: those people want to be part of our empire-- ok.

8 years later they marched on Kyiv-- whats even the excuse for that? Do you think the people in Kyiv want to be liberated from their president, and governed by some Russian oligarch?

If Russia is in a similar situation than Israel, then were are the massive acts of terrorism against Russian citizens comparable to October 7th? Where are the missiles fired towards Moscow, before 2014?

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I don't know why you interpret my comment like that, I don't support Russia, I say that Israel is just like Russia from that standpoint.

Are you by any chance assuming that Israel is absolutely innocent, therefore I must be claiming that Russia must be also innocent? It's the other way around, they are both aggressor and invaders. Anyone claiming that countries shouldn't invade other countries and respect the internationally recognized borders then should support Ukraine and Palestine.

The new puppet government was ethnic cleansing the local Russian populatin. So It's not so clear cut. The fact that's it a puppet government is easy to confirm. Just ask yourself where Zelensky came from and why he stashes his generational wealth in the states. Why ban elections if the Ukrainian people are still really behind them. Also Ukraine is not getting helped for free. More like they've mortgage their land and resources to the likes of Blackrock and other banking interests. That will keep the future generations in indebted servitude, while they rob them of their resources. This is just Western colonialism. Ask any Indian how fond they are of British colonialism.

> The new puppet government was ethnic cleansing the local Russian populatin

Yes, this is what Russian state media insinuated.

If Russias utmost effort was to protect the minorities in Ukraines east, spearheading a peace-keeping effort would have made a lot of sense (even stationing army there, possibly).

But this is not what happened, Russia fanned the flames in that region instead, aiding the separatists with undercover soldiers and materiel `(this is very well documented because they shot down a civilian airliner by mistake, which pissed of the dutch victims and their government to no end, investigating the whole clusterfuck in excruciating detail).

> The fact that's it a puppet government is easy to confirm.

Insisting on Zelensky being a non-democratic puppet government is a bit rich after Putin had his last political opponent poisoned, but ok...

> Why ban elections if the Ukrainian people are still really behind them

Because they are at war.

> Also Ukraine is not getting helped for free. More like they've mortgage their land and resources to the likes of Blackrock and other banking interests. That will keep the future generations in indebted servitude, while they rob them of their resources.

So Russia trying to annex the Ukraine is actually a plot by western colonialists? Why is Russia helping those colonialists in your opinion? Who exactly are those colonialists? Germany? UK? France?

Navalny went through a trail (Russian legal process), was found guilty of corruption and died in prison of a blood clot. Please provide proof of poisoning ...

Alexei Navalny's popularity within Russia was always a western media fabrication, and at best a whole lot of wishful thinking. Navalny was a fringe candidate, with about the same amount of popularity as Chris Christi, and pushed and financed be the same neocons. To what degree Russia is democratic can be disputed, but the fact is that Putin still has the backing of a vast, vast majority of Russian people.

There are J6 political opponents still rotting in jail on decade long sentences over protesting a highly suspicious election. Some have been kept in solitarily confinement (torture) and some have also died in prison. So Jailing political opposition is done in the states at this point too. Trump survived two assassination attempts. Biden a less popular candidate (as proven by this election) had his justice department attempt to jail him for hundreds of years.

>So Russia trying to annex the Ukraine is actually a plot by western colonialists?

Russia voluntarily let Ukraine secede from the USSR under certain conditions, which they have not kept. If Ukrainians have a right to self determination. Clearly under the same principle that Russian majority that lives in eastern part of Ukraine does as well.

> If Ukrainians have a right to self determination. Clearly under the same principle that Russian majority that lives in eastern part of Ukraine does as well.

Russians were not a majority in eastern Ukraine. The split was roughly 55% Ukrainian, 40% Russian, 5% other in Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, and much less in other oblasts Russia has officially annexed - Kherson was 82% Ukrainian and 14% Russian.

The right to self-determination applies to distinct "peoples". It's not very well defined, but generally understood as a globally distinct ethnicity living on their historic territories. Native American tribes could exercise this. They are a distinct people living on their historic land and without their own established state anywhere else in the world.

This right does not extend to ethnic minorities living in other countries. Russians have already exercised the right and have a country, they don't get to claim any piece of land on the planet that has Russians living there. Russians have about as strong claim to eastern Ukraine than Israel has to Brooklyn (22% Jewish). I think it would be pretty insane to argue that Brooklyn "should belong to Israel" purely on this, and start a major war that drives away millions as refugees, kills hundreds of thousands, and razes many East Coast towns to ground.

The exact percentage of Russian ethnicity is is a little hard to determine, and varies through out that region. The fact is that the Eastern region of Ukraine historically voted for pro Russian candidates. And after being annexed, again voted to be part of Russia. Presumably the people that live there, hedged their bets on who would treat them best going forward, and came up with Russia multiple times.

We have a similar situation in Canada where the Province of Quebec has a large percentage of francophone speakers (French Heritage). If one day, Canada were to try to join the US, a large percentage of the Quebec region would either decide to form their own country, or link up with France in some way. Even more so likely if the Anglophone Canadians would start ethnically cleansing Quebecers.

If you believe in the principals of democracy, then you should support the will of the local population to self determination under such circumstances.

All this talk of democracy, but Zelensky's party will not hold new elections, because they've lost the support of the majority of Ukrainians. So if not the interests of the majority, who's interest does this party represent going forward?

> The fact is that the Eastern region of Ukraine historically voted for pro Russian candidates. And after being annexed, again voted to be part of Russia. Presumably the people that live there, hedged their bets on who would treat them best going forward, and came up with Russia multiple times.

That's simply not true. Pre-war surveys showed 1% support for joining Russian Federation in Kherson and up to 13% in areas with the largest number of Russians. So it was a fringe idea even among ethnic Russians. Leaked surveys conducted by Russian military admin after the invasion showed similar low levels. They got 99% support in their fake referendums only through extreme intimidation:

  Moscow-backed forces are going door-to-door armed with machine guns forcing Ukrainians to vote in "sham" referendums that will annex newly occupied areas to Russia, sources have told the Telegraph. Voting began on Friday morning and is expected to continue until Tuesday, with polling stations featuring see-through ballot boxes and armed guards set up across Russian-controlled parts of the Kherson, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Donetsk regions, as well as Russia itself. 

  Ukrainians living in territory that Moscow has taken since the start of the war have been told their families will be massacred if they refuse to take part, with soldiers sometimes even leaning over their shoulders and watching them as they vote. “We are forced to go under the pretext of being shot. If we didn’t go, they said that they would shoot or massacre the whole family,” said a resident in Severodonetsk, Luhansk Oblast, who wished to remain anonymous due to fears of reprisals. “We're scared. At the referendum, turnout is required or arrest or worse. Many are being forced with a threat to life.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/23/gunmen-goi...

If you care about the free self-determination of local population, then this is the polar opposite - plain coercion by foreign invaders.

The exact percentage of Russian ethnicity is is a little hard to determine, and varies through out that region

But the comparative proportions identifying as "Ukrainian" or "Russian" in the last pre-war census is not, and in fact, in this wonderful utopian future we now live in. And even starting from scratch, you can easily zero in on a reliable answer to this question within minutes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Ukrainian_census#National...

I invite you to look at the numbers for the 5 regions which Putin is currently intending to grab (and which the Trump administration apparently intend to just hand over to him, with an order of fries on the side), and tell us what you find there.

Even more so likely if the Anglophone Canadians would start ethnically cleansing Quebecers.

The thing is, under normal circumstances they most definitely would not. And if you were to go up there today, and tell them that 10 years from now they'd all be at each other's throats, with one side insisting it just had to ethnically cleanse the other and they no longer had any real choice about the matter -- they'd look at you like you were crazy.

And that was pretty much the situation in Ukraine, until very shortly before 2014. What changed that was (to some extent) various political events. But what pushed these changes of sentiment into violence was -- a tide relentless propaganda and disinformation.

Of exactly the type you are echoing, above.

"in this wonderful utopian future we now live in, you can easily zero in on a reliable answer to your question within minutes (even starting from scratch):"

Russia voluntarily let Ukraine secede from the USSR under certain conditions, which they have not kept

Please identify the specific treaty/protocol you are referring to, and which clauses you believe Ukraine has violated.

Clearly under the same principle that Russian majority that lives in eastern part of Ukraine

There was no such majority before Russia's invasion of 2014 (as explained in the other comment). It seems you may be confused by the fact that there were higher numbers voting for pro-Russia parties, or who spoke Russian/Surgyk. But that's not the same as being, or identifying as "Russian" -- any more the fact that English is the dominant language in Ireland means everyone living there must be "English".

This is one of the most important things to understand about Ukraine.

The poisoning of Navalny is well documented. Involvement of the FSB as well.

Just read the wiki article for a quick summary, or e.g. the bellingcat reports for details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexei_Navalny

Navalny was a patriot that fought corruption and abuse of power in his nation-- would he have won elections in Russia? Probably not, but he was most certainly highly inconvenient for the corrupt oligarchs there (Putin among them).

Regarding J6: I don't doubt that some of those protestors had good intentions. Do you suggest letting perpetrators go unpunished if their attempt at a coup is incompetent enough, and fone with "pure" intentions? Because I feel that sets a very bad precedent for a democracy in general; I don't think you would find a majority for this, either.

> If Ukrainians have a right to self determination. Clearly under the same principle that Russian majority that lives in eastern part of Ukraine does as well.

First-- the Donbas is not a nation, which is what makes it more complicated to exercise any self determination in general. So that situation is different from Russia vs. Ukraine already.

Second-- Russia being primarily concerned about regional autonomy of eastern Ukraine is a pretty transparent sham, because they never actually stood up for the autonomy of those regions-- they annexed them instead, after sending soldiers there to further escalate the situation.

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