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Comment by alde | Hacker News Reader

Stopped paying for Kagi after finding out that they are using Yandex for some part of the search results and are paying Yandex 2% of their revenue for that.

For the unaware, Yandex Search is tightly integrated with the Kremlin.

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(Locked) discussion on the Kagi feedback page:

https://kagifeedback.org/d/5445-reconsider-yandex-integratio...

Apparently this has been happening for a long time but only recently drew attention when they announced integrating images. The founder cites the 2% number as if it's supposed to make it all okay, but when it comes to principled objection to funding Russian propaganda, it's hard to argue that we should be okay as long as the number per subscriber is small.

I've been a Kagi subscriber from the beginning and am up for renewal, and I've got to say here (since I can't say so there now that it's locked) that this is giving me pause. I've fought back against boycotting Russian-founded companies before (anyone remember when JetBrains came under fire?), but this is Yandex, not some little company that happens to have a Russian founder.

Edit: I just want to draw attention to the fact that this subthread was the top comment and now has been downranked to the bottom. Whether that was moderator action or algorithmic, I disagree with the decision.

Very good point about the lack of principled objection - that's pretty much anyone needs to know about this business - if they put anything else (in this case the idea of "being the best search") - over doing the right thing, it doesn't deserve to exist.

When a founder's/owner's moral attitude is this unprincipled, supporting their company will only make the problem worse. "Immorality scales with the business".

We are seeing this with Reddit and fake users. Kagi owners, employees and (prospective) users should ask themselves: "what good would even the best search engine be, if the world is already corrupted?" You will find what you support.

Wow I didn't know this .. and I just recently started a paid subscription. I'll have to cancel it now but that is a real shame.

Very unfortunate and caused me to cancel my subscription immediately. Any alternatives that people can recommend to someone who throughly enjoyed Kagi?

I really hope they reconsider their arrangement.

I heard Yandex has pretty good search results.

Considering I am highly skeptical of the western elite apparatus today, this is positive news to me. Yandex beats Bing (ddg) hands-down and gives Google a run for its money.

It is prudent to be skeptical of the "western elite apparatus", but it is positively insane to consider the Russian apparatus preferable. I understand why some people dislike their government and country, but I don't understand why doing so makes them blind to the even more egregious failings of other states.

Shameful, I will not be renewing my subscription if they don't change this.

Hmm I wasn’t aware of the revenue share setup. What’s the source for that?

This was a good nudge to check in on how close Yandex is to the Russian government. Answer: way closer than they were 5 years ago. Russia basically nationalized them, and routinely modifies search results to align with the government’s preferences.

https://www.zois-berlin.de/en/publications/zois-spotlight/th...

The Kagi founder mentions 2% in a response to a feedback thread

https://kagifeedback.org/d/5445-reconsider-yandex-integratio...

This looks like something they should let users toggle.

Thank you, I was about to subscribe until I read this. Yandex has become / is becoming a tool for Russian propaganda, and I refuse to put money into something supporting Putin's War Machine.

https://www.zois-berlin.de/en/publications/zois-spotlight/th...

> Volozh resigned as Yandex’s chief executive in June 2022 and left Russia; in August 2023, he publicly condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. After lengthy negotiations and in the face of mounting political and legal pressure, in February 2024 Yandex announced the sale of its business in Russia to an investment fund consisting of investors with close ties to the Kremlin

I'm sure the Kagi team is reading this thread: you need to seriously reconsider your business relationship with the Kremlin. I somehow doubt the quality of your search is so dependent on that one search provider to make the (apparent) 2% of subscription prices worth it.

What do you use instead?

Thank you; I've been a subscriber and missed this news. I'm going to unsubscribe.

If that’s the case, that’s really disappointing to hear. I recommend you for doing the right thing.

commend*

Source please. Paying customer, would like to know more.

Direct quote from CEO:

> yandex is about 2% of the cost of your subscription

Source link: https://kagifeedback.org/d/5445-reconsider-yandex-integratio...

Interesting that you are being downvoted. This is important to some people.

what is wrong with using it for "some part" as long as they are balancing it out with other sources? there is no such thing as a search engine that isn't biased or compromised at this point, so pulling from many sources that have different biases sounds fine to me.

The part where they're helping fund a war?

you could turn that argument back on itself and say the same thing about american companies since america has been ravaging the middle east for decades.

i like that they are using a diversity of sources with a diversity of biases for their information. i don't want them to just get their information from a single biased source in the west like literally every other search engine out there.

> you could turn that argument back on itself and say the same thing about american companies since america has been ravaging the middle east for decades

Why do people always turn to whataboutism rather than engaging with the criticism directly?

i think that diversity of perspective is better than only filtering for a specific bias. i dont know how many times i need to say it before you understand me. it is in fact YOU who is deflecting rather than addressing the point. you contributed absolutely nothing with your comment.

No, the deflection is yours. The theme of this thread is that some people don't want to give money to Kagi, because Kagi gives money to Yandex, which is associated with the Russian state and provides support for its war effort in Ukraine.

The desirability of diverse perspectives in search has no bearing whatsoever on that subject.

A non-deflective response would be something like: "I know paying money to Kagi indirectly supports Russia in its war against Ukraine, but I don't give a shit about that. What really matters is that my search results must include Kremlin propaganda alongside what I consider to be US propaganda".

Now, I suspect your response is going to be something along the lines of "But Google is American and America has done lots of bad things too." So to save you some time, I'll respond in advance: That too is a deflection. It is true, but it also irrelevant to the point at hand—many Kagi users do not want their money going to the Russian state.

all sources are biased, so i would prefer it include all of them. i dont really care if some of the money goes to russia. i'm not deflecting. i don't know how i could speak more clearly.

Well, my perspective is that the Russian government is much worse than the US government, even if both are bad (although the US is getting worse).

My perspective is also that search engines like Google are bad, but they at least aren't run by the US government in the same way Yandex is run by the Kremlin.

"You can't criticize Kagi using Yandex because the US is also bad" is why it's whataboutism, and why that's not an effective argument.

"XYZ is also bad, so your criticism of ABC isn't allowed."

Because the alternatives are American in this case. Also "whataboutism" is a bizarre expression and a bizarre argument.

And my perspective is that the American alternatives are not as bad as the Russian option. Even if the American alternatives are bad, there are degrees to everything. That's the reality we live in.

What you call "whataboutism" is a bullshit term used to dismiss attempts to engage with criticism directly. It's not wrong to point out that the reasoning used to diss Kagi because of Yandex association is knee-jerk nonsense, because following a principled argument would lead one to making much harder changes to their purchasing choices.

See my other comment in this thread - there are degrees to everything, and my view is that the Russian government is one of the worst. It's absolutely valid to be more critical of a Kremlin run search engine than one that's in the US, even if they both have major issues.

I'm concerned that they're paying Yandex—I have friends in Ukraine and friends that wish they could safely be home in Ukraine, and I can't fund a company that is complicit in Putin's wartime propaganda that seeks to keep the Russian people on board with his brutal invasion of my friends' country.

It would help somewhat if the founder could clarify whether funds are going to Yandex Russia or the newly split-off Nebius. If it's the latter I could at least satisfy myself that I believe the companies to be sufficiently distinct.

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