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Hard disagree. The aftermarket is stronger than ever.

V8s have been replaced by turbo engines which respond much more dramatically to modifications than any N/A V8.

There are numerous enthusiasts cars to pick from across manufacturers.

Tuning companies operate globally. People get their tunes from obscure companies in Europe.

ECU protections are being cracked regularly. Even “unhackable” ECUs are getting tunes year after year.

Stick shift options are available on a lot of enthusiasts cars. They’re slower, but people can get them if they want.

I’ve been hearing talk about the death of the car aftermarket for a decade, but every time it’s really just someone lamenting that it’s changing. I think people just get upset when the car scene of their younger years is no longer the popular scene (Mustangs and Camaros with V8s and stick shifts)

The American V8 was a high performance product at an entry level price. During the last couple years the Dodge twins got ridiculously expensive (the Challenger 392 is now almost as expensive as the Hellcat was in 2016).

The problem with the turbo engines is they are way more expensive to do anything with and they come in expensive cars. BMW, Audi really being the only things that are 'fast'. Subaru, Kia, VW are all pretty much low-level performance. And then you have really expensive stuff like the Nissan GT-R.

Turbo engines have been around for a long time, they're nothing new. And they have always been part of the car scene. But again, the lower price options aren't really competitive, they were at least close in the 2000's.

And again, the Ford ECU has been out for two years and nobody has cracked it.

I disagree on both of these. Turbo engines are usually much cheaper to tune- most of the time you can substantially increase the power with just more boost. More serious power requires a bigger turbo and bigger injectors which is still cheap and easy - an afternoon install with the engine still in the car.

Tunable turbocharged European sports cars cost next to nothing once they’re a decade or two old.

You need more than just a tune for reliability and real power. Sure you can get a cheap boost but everyone is going to realize they need to add hard parts like downpipes and intercoolers. Then you get into drivetrain issues.

And you're talking about a very, very small group compared to the old days when the hobby was more popular. Honda Civica and Ford Mustangs were such a hugely popular vehicle to modify.

It’s all a matter of the vehicle and what your goals are- sure at some point you need to modify everything else, but a turbo car gets a lot further to start with for a lot less money. I grew up tuning old Volvos and Mercedes and they were so well made and undertuned from the factory you could just about double the horsepower for next to nothing and they were still reliable. Early on they even used massively oversized turbos that had a ton of lag but could really have the boost cranked up. European cars, especially older ones tended to be heavily overengineered - with the drivetrain, cooling system, suspension, brakes, etc. massively oversized compared to Japanese and American cars.

Sure - but my point is the hobby is nowhere near as popular/mainstream as it was before

> undertuned from the factory

This seems to be a big component of then vs now. Previously companies lacked precision modeling and simulation and so often simply overbuilt parts.

Now, costs have been cut and fuel efficiency standards are much higher, so systems are more tightly engineered from the factory.

> Tunable turbocharged European sports cars cost next to nothing once they’re a decade or two old.

I'd like some specific examples (I'm in the market for cheap sports cars). Keep in mind RWD is part of the definition of a sports car.

BMW 335

I'd argue that AWD is fine too, especially if rear biased. Any AWD AUDI or VW with the 1.7t or 2.7tt is pretty cheap- even the 3.0 turbo diesel is very tunable and sold w/ AWD. Mercedes and BMW both make RWD 4 cylinder turbos, modification abilities vary.

Personally, I think the best value in a RWD sports car is a first gen Porsche Boxster, and that is what I currently daily drive- you can get a nice used one under $10k, with the IMS bearing already upgraded. However, it's normally aspirated and not really tunable without swapping out the engine- however IMO it hardly needs more power- it will keep up on a track with many vehicles twice as powerful.

Old RWD turbo volvos are also underrated, you can tune a lot of power out of them for fairly cheap.

An unexpected thing for a lot of people is that diesels are often some of the most tunable engines- people get a lot of power out of German diesels. Because they don't have predetonation issues they can be a lot more reliable and cheaper to tune.

I came dangerously close to buying a boxster this Fall for $6k. It had a blown engine and I decided I can't have a project like that unless I first own land.

The boxsters are awesome, but that mid engine looks really annoying to access. Have you done any engine or transmission work on yours? If so, how was it? Do you need a garage with a lift?

Also, soft tops are a no-go for winter daily. If I got a convertible I'd need to get a hard top (which is an option, but it's more money for more comprimises). The most modestly priced caymans are appreciably higher than boxsters. A used cayman and a new gr86 are strong competitors.

I live in a warm area and just leave the top down year round… but the 03+ soft top with multiple layers and glass window is quite good in any weather- but you can get a good hard top for 2-3k. It’s a better deal to buy one already with it.

I was concerned about the engine access but it’s really no big deal- takes a few minutes to open up, but you can check all the fluids without doing so. Mine is a manual and I did drop the transmission and replaced the clutch in the garage, just with jack stands and a regular hydraulic jack. It has been a reliable car and hasn’t needed much. And it’s amazingly fun- really I couldn’t imagine a car being more fun to drive.

I agree- I’m active on forums and in the “scene” of modifying turbocharged European cars. It’s alive and well and the DIY technology has come so far from 20 years ago- now with totally open source fuel injection systems, etc. People are doubling and tripling the power on cars you can buy cheap on Craigslist, and they still hold up well.

Any recommendations on where to best locate this scene? Forums, etc. Sounds intriguing.

Depends on what car you're interested in- take a look at vwvortex.com, pelican parts and rennlist (for Porsche), audiworld, turbobricks (Volvo).

> V8s have been replaced by turbo engines which respond much more dramatically to modifications than any N/A V8.

While technically true, it’s not the same. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve owned (and enjoyed!) both, but a highly strung big-boost inline 4 is not the same as a big V8. The instant throttle response, torque for days wherever you are in the rev range, the noise, nothing else can match it.

If you want concrete evidence of this, look at the sheer variety of cars that become more fun with a big V8. Yeah, a corvette is an awesome sports car, but the same engine turns grandpa’s Buick into a genuine enthusiast car (Impala SS). You can’t put a 300HP tiny inline 4 in a comfy sedan and expect it to become fun, it just becomes a bit faster.

And anyone who’s ever modified American V8s knows how easy they are to get power out of. Yeah, you can turn up the boost on a 2.0T for a few hundred bucks, but for double that you can take a 260HP 5.7L from the 90s (that costs $500 to buy a whole ‘nother engine, by the way, if you blow it up), slap on some heads and a cam, and make 400HP and 400lb-ft of torque - or more if you don’t mind sacrificing a bit of streetability. Or spend like $5k on heads, cam, an intake port job, and some eBay turbos & manifold and make 550/500 for a few years until you want more, turn up the boost, and blow it up. Or go even cheaper and spend a grand on eBay turbos & manifolds and do nothing to the engine, and still make like 400HP.

Anyways, long/rambling way of saying turbo 4s don’t replace V8s. Pretty much the only similarity in their behaviour is that they both ICEs. People that love V8s won’t be swayed by “but the turbo 4s make just as much power!” because that’s not what they care about.

How about intensely torquey EVs? Except for the sound, they seem like they’d be just as fun, even better throttle response than N/A. I guess there’s not the same hackability, though.

Not the same hackability, but also limits. If you want to make, say, 1500HP, that’s 1120kW. Assuming even a pack voltage of 900V, that’s still 1240 amps that has to be dealt with. Wiring/interconnects have to be huge and water cooled, as do the batteries (if they can even handle 1100+kW discharge), motors will probably have to be water cooled, and you definitely wouldn’t get more than a few runs in before everything is heat soaked. And enough cells to be able to sustain 1100kW for even 6-10 seconds is going to weigh a lot, probably more than an engine + drivetrain + fuel.

Have you seen the Tesla Model S Plaid, or the Lucid Air Saphire? Heck, even the supercar/hypercar market is slowly becoming predominantly BEV.

Those cars are purpose built for that. You can’t retrofit them easily into another car and maintain the performance. People that I’ve seen that do plaid swaps basically take the plaid and slap a different shell on it.

Also, you’re talking about >100k. V8 cars are budget in comparison.

There is no replacement for displacement.

Have several V8 Mustangs (both NA and supercharged), and an M4 with an S58 (twin turbo). Completely different profiles.

I like all of them, but they aren't even close to the same thing. I like the M4 for the luxury and ridiculous speed, but the raw horsepower from a V8 is so exhilarating

Lastly, the younger generations aren't into cars as a hobby/culture like the previous ones were. They don't drive as much and view cars as more of an appliance

I think this was true of the last younger generation, and prob me and maybe you, but from what I’m seeing, TikTok is making anything and everything cool to the youths, particularly trade type jobs. They are realizing how much money there is to be made because our generation didn’t want the work and are embracing the opportunities because the videos they are watching are making it look cool.

I can’t speak for other markets but in Australia millennials are really into Japanese cars, 4X4 or our domestic cars. And the zoomers seem to be into 4x4 as well.

I would argue modified cars are more common than ever in Australia, it’s just not what you’d expect when someone says modified cars, it’s 90% large SUVs and other 4x4 vehicles.

There is a reason the younger generations aren't into cars. There are less places to go to, shopping is online now, car parks and shopping malls are dying.

Public transport is getting better or less worse than it used to be, owning a car is getting a lot worse with taxes and higher cost, insurance through the roof, particularly for the models you've pointed out.

Finally, their buying power is a lot lesser than it was 1 generation ago when it came to "projects".

Demand is lower for ludicrous vehicle, mostly because of the rest, leading to ever less silly cars being produced or designed.

Overal, sadness.

the last point, isn't applied to all youth as a homogenous group, but I think its largely economic and interest car culture will return when the economics make sense.