Do you need ID to read the REAL-ID rules?
papersplease.org
papersplease.org
We’ve significantly reduced it down to <4 per year.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/airliner-hijackings-and-f...
You think hijackings decreased because the passengers are more likely to attack the hijackers now?
I think it’s more likely that surveillance and intelligence is better now and most hijacking attempts get discovered before they are executed.
Look at all those other pre-2001 hijackings, and ask yourself what would have happened if most of the passengers were terrified that the hijackers were preparing to destroy the entire plane and everyone on it, regardless of any demands being made or met.
Would-be hostage-taking hijackers know it too: Their business plan, as it were, has been ruined for a generation by their suicidal colleagues.
Passengers are now aware that hijackers might actually just buying time until they can trigger a murder-suicide attempt, and many will believe it is likely enough that they need to fight for their own lives. The old assumptions that "almost everyone gets out alive by passively cooperating" no longer hold.
I'm not. The TSA is hated by the populace the way the population hates every wasteful boondoggle jobs program. Foreigners hate them for profiling but that's pretty far down the list of grievances. Foreigners looking to strike at America and Americans looking to get off the porch likely have dozens of more preferable targets.
I doubt the TSA makes any would be attackers list of top five most deserving agencies.
Edit: A fed sponsored false flag attack on the TSA could make a good comedy plot. It might need to be a TV series in order to have time to fit in all the jokes, references, tropes and wise cracks you'd be obligated to make when covering such subject matter.
My wife says it’s a wonder I’m not on the no fly list.
<< My wife says it’s a wonder I’m not on the no fly list.
For better or worse, my work almost guarantees that I will be looking for mildly interesting subjects so I am likely on some sort of grey list ( no idea what IC would call it internally ). No 'no fly' list yet, but these days it only takes being extra rude it seems[1] so these days that list is a major inconvenience, but the signal it generates is less useful:D
[1]https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2021/01/15/delta-air-line...
If anyone ever hit the TSA I'd just laugh at their piss-poor targeting. Thanks for clearing out our dusty community theater, now maybe we can build an ice cream shop there or something else actually useful.
Of the 168 people who died in the Oklahoma City bombing, only 8 were from law enforcement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
After all, the security gate is the first impression visitors get of your industrial facility, or office, or embassy, or whatever. You want it to look welcoming and secure at the same time. Projecting strength but not fearfulness.
If you must use the cheap fencing, conceal it with some plants. Where the fence is visible, go for some nice decorative metalwork. Move the turnstiles into a lobby and put a reception desk and some couches next to them. Add some meeting rooms (and toilets and coffee facilities) at the security boundary, so job interviews and meetings with suppliers don't give them unfettered access.
Corporations generally don't need to worry about this.
The government doesn't generally spend a lot of money on things like "decorative metalwork". People get grumpy about it.
Exactly! Nobody would be laughing if Al-Qaeda drove a giant Dasani truck into TSA headquarters, would they?
Remember that someone was so mad at the IRS that they filled their airplane with gas cans and flew it into an IRS building, killing an employee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Austin_suicide_attack
Some security precautions are understandable in my opinion. (I don't think the ID requirement is reasonable. Take and store a photograph, deleted after 3 months, and make people go through a metal detector. Also, put the ID requirement documents online. It's free.)
I guess I'm getting downvoted for "checking ID at the gate doesn't prevent you from flying your airplane into the building" which is true, but we have to realize that most anti-government-inclined folks don't jump right to a terrorist attack as their first intervention. I do think that people hired to do a job deserve some protection from the general public while at their workplace.
This is really disturbing in a number of different ways. It's bad enough to have the government requiring you to have a government-approved smart phone, but on top of that it's the logging and data analysis wet dream that authoriarian governments the world over could have only dreamed of.
Discussed earlier
Anyway, I hate the now.
A company I previously worked for had a policy that if you had any company data on your phone, they had the right to force you to unlock it and look through it (not sure if they ever actually did but it was in the employee handbook). When IT tried introducing a system that required me to Auth with my phone I refused, citing the policy, and they helped me setup a workaround Yubikey.
Might not be possible everywhere but worth a shot. Also always helps to make friends in IT.
I don't want their data on my device for a variety of reasons. Loss of control would be enough on it's own, but there are others.
I have one for that reason, and it lives in the office alongside my work issued laptop.
It's just unusual, so the first line in helpdesk don't always know about it. And people seldom want to start a battle with the bureaucracy on their first day on the job...
The government isn't requiring that.
It's not forcing you to get a mobile ID.
Your physical ID continues to be just fine. Mobile device ID's are simply for people who want the convenience of not carrying the physical one.
Edit: geez, what's with the downvotes? I wasn't even defending anything. Just trying to keep things factually accurate here.
That's the technological ratchet at work, as it has been since the dawn of humanity. A solution that's convenient or useful enough to gain wide adoption has a way of becoming a soft necessity, and eventually a hard one. Some examples that meaningfully affected our lives[0], in many ways not for the better:
- An accurate clock / watch -- hard necessity. Good luck functioning in society without it. Opening hours, appointments, public transit schedules, are just few among many things synchronized in time, that expect you to have a clock so you can stay in sync too. And no, you can't get away with a rooster or a sundial, like you could 200 years ago - you need precision of at least a minute.
- A car -- somewhere between hard and soft necessity, depending on where you live. The society expects you to be able to commute long distances in short time, for things like work, medical services, or government appointments.
- Mobile phones, Internet, credit/debit cards -- soft necessities. You can sort of still live without them even in the big cities, but it's going to be a pain, as everything is optimized on the assumptions everyone owns a smartphone, has Internet access, bank account with a card, and increasingly often, means of contactless payments (think e.g. public transit). There's a reason even the poorest people without a roof over their heads still own iPhones, and it's not entertainment.
- Government ID app, electronic IDs, other means to do official errands fully on-line - convenience for now. I feel they'll transition into soft necessities within next 10 years, simply because interacting with government is always very annoying, and those tools simplify that process and save you some trips.
--
[0] - All in context of the developed/industrialized/western societies; of course this does not apply to societies that did not embrace a particular technology (yet).
You might enjoy the short story "Chronopolis" by J.G. Ballard.
It's set in a world where everything had been strictly done according to schedules to maximize efficiency, but it became too much and people rebelled and outlawed clocks.
For now.
You used to be able to pay for parking without downloading an app. You used to be able to buy dynamite without doxing yourself to the feds (something that you don't really think is all that important until you have to clear a lot of forested land and the reality of your options for dealing with stumps and boulders becomes clear).
It might be part of becoming the dominant defense supplier. Our weapons are so complicated it takes a lot of American know how to keep them maintained and probably even fire them. This puts Americans everywhere with a conflict.
We all get to pay with absolute security. If I killed people all of the time it would be hard to track who I killed, their living relations, even bystanders it makes sense to mistrust everyone.
A few months ago going through a TSA line at an airport they were taking everyone's photo for biometrics and made it seem mandatory. I went along with it, not fighting it, maybe you can opt-out for a bit but eventually the Government always makes it mandatory.
https://www.kxnet.com/news/top-stories/the-us-is-presently-i...
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/let-him-never-be-forgotte...
https://www.wsj.com/tech/cybersecurity/u-s-wiretap-systems-t...
> mDL apps will be required to log each time a digital ID is presented, and to whom. This is described as a measure to protect ID-holders’ privacy, despite the obvious risk posed by police or others being able to know when and to whom you have shown your ID.
That's down right horrifying.
You can't have a law, and also keep it secret.
You can agree or disagree with the goals and priorities of the Biden administration, but surely their interactions with the legislative and judicial branches demonstrate that, despite the high concentration of power there, the executive branch definitely still cannot act unchecked unilaterally.
You neglected to mention the president that has been convicted of multiple felonies
https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FUL...
Of course these aspirations will be challenged in court, but given recent jurisprudence I wouldn't bet on those challenges succeeding.
I took "the last several years" to refer to the currently sitting president. Even including the incoming president still illustrates the point, I think; the power he is likely to wield will come not merely because he is in the executive branch, but because the interests of the executive branch that he represents will be, in many respects, aligned with those of the legislative and judicial branches as currently constituted. (The judicial decisions nominally gave enormous immunity to the president, but it is checked by untested language that leaves unspecified, and so presumably in the hands of the judicial branch, decisions about what constitute 'core powers' of the presidency. I don't think it is likely to be successful, but I see it as very much an attempt to render the judicial branch still necessary even while essentially captured.)
> One of your staff asked me yesterday how I had traveled to the DC area, whether I had traveled by air, and whether I has shown any ID to do so. As a matter of principle and personal security, I do not wish to discuss my travel history, modes, or plans with you, and I am not required to do so. But the consistent position of your agency in litigation has been that no Federal law or regulation requires airline passengers to have, to carry, or to show ID. The responses by your agency to some of our FOIA requests confirm that, as you know, people fly without ID every day.
How does one go about this process?
- They can verify identify through something like a credit card, bank statements, etc.
- Even if you do not have this, they can phone someone that will verify your identity over the phone after getting some info from you. From what I heard you are only allowed to use this method twice per year.
> The TSA officer may ask you to complete an identity verification process which includes collecting information such as your name and current address to confirm your identity. If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint, where you may be subject to additional screening.
> You will not be allowed to enter the security checkpoint if you choose to not provide acceptable identification, you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process, or your identity cannot be confirmed.
TSA ID verification procedures (redacted) for people without ID: https://papersplease.org/wp/2018/05/08/tsa-releases-redacted...
records of how the TSA decides whether to let you fly without ID: https://papersplease.org/wp/2016/06/09/how-does-the-tsa-deci...
> “Access procedures are especially critical with respect to this proposed rule because ‘the class of persons affected’ – the relevant category pursuant to 1 CFR § 51.7(3), as quoted above – obviously includes individuals who do not have ID deemed compliant with the REAL-ID Act.
These laws "apply" to platform makers who are attempting to create Real ID mDLs, not people who want a REAL ID in the abstract. Someone without a REAL ID cannot get an mDL, regardless of the text of these rules.
The 5 U.S.C. 552(a) [1] it modifies notes that "Except to the extent that a person has actual and timely notice of the terms thereof, a person may not in any manner be required to resort to, or be adversely affected by, a matter required to be published in the Federal Register and not so published."
Which seems to be a pretty broad definition of affected person.
I'd certainly consider myself to be affected if in order to avail myself of one option of TSA identification for air travel I had to use an app that did... (reference not openly available)
[0] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1/part-51/section-51.7#p-...
I have a US Passport that took less effort and paperwork to get than a Real-ID. I will never submit.
It proves my identity as a US Citizen as much as it has to be.
Unlike most driver’s licenses, a passport card doesn’t expose one’s address. This makes it a great form of ID to use in non‐airport situations as well.
Coincidentally, this is also how it works with German passports. You're legally required to have either an ID card or a passport (or can have both.) The former has your address and comes with a bunch of ever-changing digital signature/ID features (that you need a special reader or app for). The latter is just a biometric (still RFID but well) passport, with only the city (issuing authority) listed.
You're totally right that drivers license and passport ought to be sufficient documentation to get a real id, at least for US passport holders or for foreign passport holders when suitable evidence of lawful status is physically present within their passport. But that's not how the real id rules are written, since two proofs of the address of residence are also required. Not all non-real id drivers licenses prove residence (as opposed to for example mailing address), and at most, driver's license plus passport will provide one such proof and not two.
Documentation of the Social Security number, such as a Social Security card, also used to be federally required. Although this requirement was removed, nothing forced the states to remove the corresponding requirement in their own state-law rules, and some states still retain that requirement. Providing any Social Security number you have been assigned is still federally required, and the number is still verified against SSA records, but the feds no longer require the applicant to provide proof that it's their number.
This is utterly ridiculous, at least for driving. Anyone who needs to validate that someone’s driver’s license is authentic should be well-equipped to query the relevant state’s database and look it up. Just like how they would search for outstanding warrants, Amber Alerts, etc.
With that in mind, surely it should be legal to drive with a photo of one’s driver’s license, a copy of one’s license, any app whatsoever that can display a license, etc. There is basically no security added by a fancy add by an approved contractor — at most they can do some “device posture” crap to sort of prove to a reader that the app thinks that the phone it’s on really does belong to the owner of the license, which is a silly form of security by overcomplication. If I want to pretend to be my friend, I can borrow their phone or their actual drivers license just fine.
This is also why IDs are not accepted when they expire -- if they were accepted, then my underage brother might take my old one to buy beer. I've been in the ridiculous situation of saying "I know my ID has expired, but I assure you I have not. I'm still me."