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Comment by shermantanktop | Hacker News Reader

I have heard every possible sentiment about RTO at this point. The post is a well-written spleen vent, and I mostly agree, but I didn’t see anything new in it.

But because everyone has an opinion, I’ll share mine: I like being in the office, sometimes. I hate going to and from the office.

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I don't mind the commute if I live close enough that I can just walk 30-40 minutes to the office, because then it serves as a good exercise (okay, fine. Grass-touching) that I don't have to do separately in the day.

But I realize that this is NOT a luxury most people have. Most people's commute looks like being stuck in the subway, or driving in traffic, for up to several hours every single day, and I just can't think of anything that would justify that type of commute.

The single-occupant driving commute is the most common way to get to work in the US, by far. [1] That’s just miserable: it’s stressful, lonely, expensive, prone to risks like car problems. I feel like we can do better, even incrementally. Why isn’t slugging [2] more common, for instance?

[1] https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2024/demo/acsbr...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging

I have a feeling almost all of the pro-WFH types are exactly that: 1) American 2) single-occupant driver commute 3) live in big car-centric city. 4) have ridiculously long commute time.

Slugging isn't common because the capitalist system would rather everyone buy a car. Selling cars is big business.

I'd argue it has less to do with the "capitalist systems" and more to do with how obnoxious "slugging" sounds. Commuting in your own car guarantees (a) you have a ride and (b) you have flexibility. You can change you plans, stop by the store, run errands, anything your heart desires (plus, not deal with strangers everyday. Ugh.)

This isn't a pro-car thing. I've haven't driven a car to work in 8 years (I pay out the ass to live downtown so that I'm close enough to walk / bike). It just seems like "Well, that sounds like a pain in the ass" is a simpler possible explanation to why slugging isn't popular in the US compared to Big Business not wanting it to be.

So the big car companies are forcing me to buy their product? It does not feel that way. Seems more like it is people in their capacity as voters and consumers which are driving things this way.

And the huge corporations lobbying to outlaw import of reasonable cars..

Not 'forced' like at the tip of a gun, but the big car companies (and others) pushed to redesign cities (probably before you were born) to service the automobile. Neighbourhoods we razed to build roads, roads were widened, sidewalks shrunk or removed, public transport systematically attacked, etc. The history is well documented if you want to read about it.

> lonely

not to everyone. I love being alone and hate to deal with people or drama on public transit.

Ha, this is so true. I loathe having to commute into the office, but the only thing worse would be doing that on a bus.

It's tough to imagine slugging culture becoming prominent enough that it could be a reliable and timely mode of transport, and HOV lanes aren't always available to provide an incentive to drivers.

I use to love slugging (aka “casual carpool”) here in the Bay Area in the Before Times. There was a conveniently nearby bus stop where drivers would routinely offer rides into SF so they could use the carpool lane and get to work more quickly. It was a fun way to meet neighbors.

After a high intensity job with a short, city commute, I moved away and had a new job with an ~hour, drive commute. For a few years, that drive was amazing for being able to mentally prepare and decompress from work. It made it so easy to leave work at work and there was a long separation between them. I really needed that at that time.

No one slugs where I am now because we all have kids that also have to be shuttled around by parents. I grew up using school buses most of the time. These days, at least where I live, those don't exist. We've had to rearrange our personal and professional lives left, right, up and down to deal with the fact that we have 1 kid in preschool and 2 in elementary school and dealing with school hours and after-school care programs, etc.

My mom slugged for decades of her working life. I really wish it were an option.

Long commute is indeed a pain. My way of coping it is listening to audio books and podcast, and in the meantime cut as much screen time on my phone. Listening to good books improves commute immensely.

Here is mine: I like the commute, it marks the beginning and end of my workday and I get fresh air. I loathe being in the office, it is mentally taxing and I have to put in more for the same output.

Fair point. Nice separation between personal life and work.

I have an easy commute (35 - 45 minutes, but not bad traffic and pretty roads), and a comfy car. The commute is my peaceful time, when I don't have to answer to anyone.

I'd rather go to the gym than be in a car for the same effect.

I guess I don't really consider that an easy commute though I've done something along those lines off and on over the years. It's not bad like when I commuted about 90 minutes a few days a week. "Easy" for me is a 15-30 minute walk with maybe some mass transit mixed in there if the weather is bad.

And, yes, if I had an office to go into, I would do so some days if that were my option.

My commute is a 15 minute bike ride. 9/10 days it’s nice weather, I get some air and possibly some sunlight. Office isn’t too bad, and it’s nice to meet other adults. I don’t think I would enjoy it as much if I had a desk in a big, shared office space and a 45 minute bus ride.

Ironically those days that are so bad that I think that I almost shouldn’t try to bike, those are the days that the busses don’t run because the busses and more sensitive to the weather than my e-bike with studded tires.

Busses in Oslo don’t work if it’s raining a lot or if it’s snowing a lot. It’s really sad since it’s snows and rains quite a lot every year. Our locally public transport is more interested in trailing self-driving cars than testing out new tires :(

9/10 days it’s nice weather in Oslo?

Hey, snow and rain are nice too!

I'm only biking in the morning and late afternoon. So yes, 9/10 days the weather in the morning and late afternoon is nice. It can rain every single day of the year between 9 a.m. and 3 p.m. without bothering me.

Commutes can indeed be good, but you can get the same benefit with your own rituals. Currently, I shovel the snow in the morning and drink a hot chocolate to start the workday, and I take a ten-minute walk to end it. Same effect as a commute, but something I can control.

If you have the discipline for them. Some of us find maintaining rituals deliberately very taxing, and find having them imposed on us useful. (I'm with the previous poster, in that I actually kind of liked commuting. I like remote work because I don't like cities.)

The serenity I had while sitting in a train is the only thing I seek from my office days. I actually listened to audio books and learned, or just watched outside and thought about nothing.

Catching cold every 2 to 6 weeks on winter wasn't amazing though.

I have a fake commute that I just started. I meditate or listen to an inspiring short talk. It has done wonders with my patience with the kids right after work.

> I like the commute, it marks the beginning and end of my workday and I get fresh air.

I get up at 06:15. Work for an hour, then go for a fast and invigorating walk through the forest where I often encounter deer, and this week a fox, and then I'm back at my home-desk to start the day with some video meetings.

When my kids get back from school I take a break and we have a snack together. Then I work another hour, and then in the summer I roll out my bike, and in the winter we've gone out with the snow-racer (although the kids don't wanna do that so much anymore).

Before covid I used to sit in a miserable office. Everyone had headphones on. My window overlooked a motorway on-ramp that was always backed-up as far as the eye could see.

I just need flexibility and variety. Some days I work better from home. Some days it feels claustrophobic and I cannot focus. Sometimes the office helps me focus. Sometimes it facilitates communications that never would have happened remotely. Other times I’m bogged down by unwanted social interactions. Sometimes I really need to be on site with customers or at a conference building and maintaining social ties.

I’ve worked in hybrid environments for over a decade and could never go back to a full RTO position. I’m currently mostly remote and that is also driving me a little crazy.

Some people do great in the office. Some do great remote. I’m not in either bin.

This girl has pretty severe Crohn's, severe enough to make commuting in pretty much not an option: in addition to the severe fatigue, she's immunocompromised and more prone to whatever bugs her coworkers bring in to work. That's something new and unique about this post I took away from it. It's not just a rant because me no like office/commute. There are health and profound QoL issues in play.

Not the person who wrote this post, but I also have Crohn's (that isn't quite in remission). If WFH was off the table, there's no way I'd be able to work at all. With WFH, I'm bringing in more than half of total our household income. Very very grateful that this is available to me.

> I like being in the office

I love being in an office with the handful of people I work with. I hate being in an office with hundreds of people I don't work with.

I'm in the same vein. I enjoy being in the office a couple days a week - I feel like there's different types of focus needed for different tasks and sometimes the focus I need is the kind I get from being in a very structured environment with co-workers. Other times it's the kind I get from being in my own space in full control of my own surroundings.

But either way I hate commuting. Especially if I have to drive.

I don’t mind going in either, but I like having it as an option and not mandatory or only 2-3 designated days that excludes Fridays.

I did two hours of work this (Saturday) morning, and I was pretty ill four days in a recent week but able to work for two of them. That's a lot of productivity my employer would not have had from me if I had to go to the office to work.

As somebody who generally dislikes the office, i respect your opinion and your preference.

The issues arise when we’re all forced into the office, whether we like it or not.

I wouldn’t mind going from time to time, but i absolutely abhor being forced to.

We need those tubes from Futurama.

Did I understood correctly, if teleportation would be real you would go to the office every day? I would, if I would meet my team there.

Well, I wouldn't. Teleportation wouldn't even be necessary in my case as it takes 5 minutes for me to get to my office. I just don't see any point in being in office on days when I am focusing on writing code to push features out.

I like being in the office when everyone else is wfh. When everyone is in the office I can't focus, am stressed, little gets done.

I think being in the office together with a plan is a good tool to use, but you need to use it well.

Just yell at people to be in the office for 2 days per week for no reason? Meh. Why?

Organize a week to have all local and international employees together for a week once or twice a year, schedule big organizational meetings and important discussions in that week, sponsor dinner and lunch together, have a team event or three? Just accept that concrete and hard productivity will crash for that week, and consider it a social event? That's actually nice and valuable.

> Organize a week to have all local and international employees together for a week once or twice a year, schedule big organizational meetings and important discussions in that week, sponsor dinner and lunch together, have a team event or three? ... That's actually nice and valuable.

When I read posts like this - however well-intentioned - I just see a person without kids or other responsibilities, who thinks it would be 'fun' to fly out to some town and hang with their colleagues 24/7 for those seven days, and forgetting that for a lot of people this would be difficult or impossible. At home there can be children that need to be looked after, or an elderly parent who needs a visit, or a partner who works nights or a disability that would make this type of 'cool' get-together impossible or extremely stressful.

The compromise is ofcourse that you're working the majority of the time remote and can reasonably accommodate one of these trips if the date is known in advance. I had a similar experience at a workplace I've had with known "onsites" that facilitated several of the business units at the same time, holding meetings and small get togethers to allow some face to face time. Afterward, optional events were suggested to spend time with teams if you had the flexibility, like meeting for a bigger group dinner or doing a meeting specifically with your team.

I don't think it's nearly as 'tech startup burnout' culture as you're envisioning here, people travel for work functions regularly in other sectors of work. Nearly all my aforementioned coworkers on my team had children and lives that they were able to allow their temporary separation from. I dont think it's anyone else's responsibility to fix but your own if making accommodations and planning to meet other people makes you stressed.

You are straw-manning by quoting half of my post though.

On the team, "people without children" are the minority. We do have member s on the team with disabled elders, elders requiring care, disabled children. Lifestock even. We do have people with all manner of volunteer responsibilities too.

We have discussed this extensively internally. To all of these people, it is massively easier to clear up 1 full week with 3-4 months of lead time, than to free up 2-3 days per week permanently. That's why whe chose this mode.

Ok, what if you are paid to create a office in your house?

Heavily agree on the “going to and from the office”

I was just thinking about this recently as $company executives are sociopathically dangling RTO in our faces. The worst part is the commute by car.

I’m totally for WFH, but give me an office I can walk/bike to in a safe calm environment - not a bike lane next to 60 mph traffic - and I may just want to go into the office.

Furthermore, the company culture needs to be such that you can leave the office as necessary like we do in WFH. Do errands, take a break, etc. Cal Newport makes the point on his podcast that our work culture for creative jobs (anything that uses the brain primarily, I don’t know the right word) has not really changed from factory line physical in nature jobs.

"Knowledge work"? Is that the label?

Yeah this is my position. There are aspects of being in the office that I like. I loathe having to drive 45 minutes to get there, however.

> I like being in the office, sometimes. I hate going to and from the office.

I like being in the office when it means the office isn't packed to the brim. Prior to RTO mandates at my employer, our team voluntarily went in on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And it was very nice. Not everyone (including myself) came in every day but there was always others present. Then RTO mandates came down, then we got moved out of our office space into another, next to a very loud group of non-engineers, then we got moved again, again next to a very loud group of non-engineers, and we are being moved, yet again, but this time back to our own, secluded space. It's all frankly ridiculous bullshit. I'm 60% remote today but I'm still generally annoyed about being in the office when I am there because of all of the stupid bullshit that comes along with it.

Don't think I've seen the point about office work spreading disease in a blog post like this before. Do you have any examples of this?

It's a bunch of people in a crowded, shared space. For respiratory/airborne illnesses, the default assumption should be that office work will in fact spread disease.

You probably meant to respond to someone else, I have made no such claim.

You asked for examples about office work spreading disease, in the context of you saying that you hadn't seen the claim before. I took that as an unwillingness to believe the idea until you saw evidence. If that wasn't your point, I obviously didn't understand what you were trying to say, so could you clarify?

[Edit: I see that it could be read to be asking for examples of the claim that office work spreads disease in a piece arguing against RTO. Given that at this time, none of the direct replies read it that way, I'm going to say that it was at a minimum ambiguously worded...]

You might want to slow down a bit and re-read what the person actually said in their comment.

Your edit is still wrong!

In context, the person was replying to someone who stated “I have read it all when it comes to RTO”. They stated they hadn’t seen a _blog post_ making _this point_ that RTO would cause more sickness. They were never addressing the claim that it does or does not. They were talking about the novelty of this argument for them.

Just as a tip: the links between comments and replies on HN is pretty thin so it can be hard to follow the connection between a comment and what it's reply to.

I get fewer (not none!) of this kind of misunderstood reply after adopting a habit of quoting the specific part of a post which I'm replying to, especially when that post makes more than one point.

So in this case (and this is mainly for the benefit of anyone still confused about what happened in this thread):

> > I have heard every possible sentiment about RTO at this point.

> Don't think I've seen the point about office work spreading disease in a blog post like this before. Do you have any examples of this?

It spreads disease and increases sick days and terrible for green house gas reductions and increases inflation (increases demands for gas). The thing that gets me is the same people preaching the world is going to end because of these gases demand we continue these practices. The environmental groups are silence. Who is lying to whomp? Is it all some self delusion.

We’re you in the workforce in 2020?

The entire point of RTO is a reference to returning to the office from when we all decided to not go to work to slow the spread of disease.

If you want a direct example, our first on-site after COVID led to half of my team getting COVID despite testing and masking precautions.

If I weren't, would I see examples of such blog posts in your reply?

Why would I point you to a blog post with an example when I already provided one in the post, and when the unspoken premise of the term RTO is a reference to the worldwide phenomena of people not going to the office to avoid spreading a disease.

You may not mean to, but you are coming across as intentionally obtuse. Apologies for my tone of that isn’t the case.

Because that's the topic here. Blog posts venting against "RTO". The message I responded to claimed that TFA didn't have anything "new", but to me, as far as I know this genre, that point being brought up was new.

So I asked for examples, so if they exist and this isn't actually uncommon in such blog posts and I've just been unlucky, then I might find some interesting blogs to read. The absolute bulk of somewhat popular tech work blogging is done by very boring, very self-centered people, and I've found caring about epidemic disease to be a decent indicator that people might not be in short-form social media.

But a bunch of what looks to me like illiterate cretins got in the way. Maybe they're not, but by now I don't really care either way, and have given up on the potential for blog recommendations.

I work in the healthcare industry. Because of this, a lot of people on my extended team still had to go to work, and see patients and their families face-to-face.

The worst part of 2020 for me was repeatedly removing coworkers from the intranet as they died.

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