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Comment by maeil | Hacker News Reader

> browsers aren't really a self funding product

They are, see how both Safari and Firefox, the 2nd and 3rd most popular browsers, have brought in tens of billions of revenue per year. Safari is immensely profitable, Firefox too would be if Mozilla wouldn't be run in an absurdly poor manner.

> the user gains a huge amount of value by a browser being integrated into the OS, webviews in other applications, etc

What is the huge value gain that e.g. Safari being integrated into MacOS is bringing me? Why couldn't webviews be backed by a browser of my choice?

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Mozilla literally gets paid by Google, and not sure how you can quantify Safari as being profitable on its own when it's the default for all Apple products and realistically, the only browser on iOS.

Apple also literally gets paid by Google for the same thing, but a lot more money.

True but a standalone Safari not backed by Apple probably wouldn't command anywhere close to that.

> Safari is immensely profitable

The exact way Safari itself is immensely profitable is under scruity in this exact DOJ case!

This DOJ case isn't looking to ban payments for default search engines in browsers. It is very unlikely that this entire practice will be outlawed/stopped as a result of this DOJ case.

Yes it is, see page 12 of [1]:

> As set forth in Section IV, the PFJ prohibits Google from offering Apple anything of value for any form of default, placement, or preinstallation distribution (including choice screens) related to general search or a search access point.

[1] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.223...

In what way is Safari profitable? How is that even measured? Has any consumer in the last 10 years ever specifically paid for safari? Or do you mean the payments by google to be the default search engine?

If Safari didn't exist, Google wouldn't be paying Apple ~$20-Billion a year to default Safari's search to Google

Why not though? Apple could still install Firefox and set Bing as the default search engine. Or even just Chrome, without selecting google. They don’t get the money for making a browser but configuring their browser in a specific way. That would work with any browser.

Can Apple force Mozilla to make Google the default browser in Firefox?

No? But why does it matter? They can include Firefox in their OS and set the default search engine to anything they want.

The point was that developing Safari isn't what makes apple the money, it's setting Google as the default search engine of the default browser. So if Apple would stop maintaining safari tomorrow and would switch to preinstalling Firefox, they would still get the Google money (for setting Google as the default search engine of their Firefox installation). So Safari isn't profitable for Apple, as was claimed before.

I think you’re lost in the sauce buddy.

That search isn't only in Safari, it's in the rest of the OS too via Spotlight.

Similar for Windows.

Please provide proof that Firefox has "brought in tens of billions of revenue per year".

hundreds of millions per year, perhaps approaching ten billion lifetime, is more accurate

I meant the combination of both, it was indeed unclear.

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