Bose buys McIntosh, storied maker of high-end luxury audio equipment | Hacker News Reader

Bose buys McIntosh, storied maker of high-end luxury audio equipment

cnbc.com

37 pointsavonmach63 comments

> “There are places today where the Bose brand probably can’t go. Lamborghini is a great example of that,” Snyder said. “You really want the very best kind of cutting-edge technology to be in those luxury or highest-performing vehicles.”

I get why they want to be in cars like Lamborghinis. People who buy a car like that have no problem spending a lot on the sound system. But the cars are so noisy inside when driven, you aren't going to be able to tell a McIntosh system apart from an AC Delco.

Exactly! The sound quality cannot be appreciated in a vehicle like that. The exhaust and engine notes will muddy that easily.

Electric vehicles are more in vogue for this segment, and they already simulate the engine sound anyway. Without that it would be relatively quiet at highway speed. Presumably the design of the audio system would take this into account and either not play the simulated engine sounds or adaptively mute them when the radio is playing.

> they already simulate the engine sound anyway. Without that it would be relatively quiet at highway speed.

Aren't tires the dominant source of cabin noise at highway speeds, so about the same for electric and ICE vehicles?

In your everyday car, yes. But not a Lambo. That V10/V12 is gonna scream.

It is more important to claim you have the best and most expensive sound system in a car than to actually get those results while driving. Most people don't drive these cars over 80 and never race 0-60 but knowing it could and bragging about it is the luxury cost.

> I get why they want to be in cars like Lamborghinis. People who buy a car like that have no problem spending a lot on the sound system. But the cars are so noisy inside when driven, you aren't going to be able to tell a McIntosh system apart from an AC Delco.

actually, those high end cars have excellent noise insulation, you you are definitely going to appreciate high end audio speakers, in fact the motor engine is muffled something too much...

Think I read somewhere where they overdid the sound insulation in a prototype leading to issues changing gears and running the engine in the red cause it couldn't be heard anymore . Using active noise cancelletion inside the cabin

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-luxury-car-brands-use-au...

Lamborghini sell a ton more SUVs than anything else. Cars are an emotional purchase. People are buying a lifted station wagon and telling themselves they are in a racing car. A big booming hifi can be demoed by anyone. Handling cannot and will not. Good sound is appreciated on the commute to work and school run where SUVs actually live.

As an audiophile, I could see why some would see this as a horrible thing. But I'm not really worried.

McIntosh has been a higher end Bose for a while now. They live on their brand name and their blue glow, but amplifiers and dacs, really most electronics, have been a solved problem. And that solution has been slowly dropping in price for a while now. McIntosh's gear has barely moved, which is because they're way more fashion over function.

Bose, if they're smart, will leave the brand intact and use their connections with car manufacturers etc to make them more prevalent. But, there's already such a huge margin on their products, I think it'll be a while before they try and cannibalize that for profit.

As a former Bose employee, I’ve been curious about how the company would evolve.

During my time at Bose, I focused on improving connectivity, a major pain point for consumers. However, as Apple invested heavily in the audio space, it introduced seamless integration within its ecosystem. The AirPods’ effortless connection, with its elegant pop-up when first paired, set a new standard for user experience that Bose struggled to match, given its lack of control over platforms like iOS or Android.

I always wondered how Bose would compete, and it’s clear that their strategy remains focused on the premium audio space.

one good thing that I heard about McIntosh, is that even after 10-20 years of owning it, you can contact their support to buy some spare parts for fixing, and they will sell and even would be helpful to figure out what exactly needed (even in case if you are not original buyer). Unlikely that Bose would be interesting continue doing that kind of level of support.

I had several Tumi items. When I got them, I was told they had a "lifetime warranty," and I actually exercised it, a couple of times (broken zipper, one time).

Some time ago, they got brought out.

I was told the "lifetime" has died.

Isn't the point of buying brands like that that you shouldn't need to fix after only 10-20 years? I have a denon receiver from the late 90's that I upgraded from and has been my garage/shop amp for the last 15 or so years. It is covered in dust and dirt and still cranks like the day I got it.

Well, yeah. I know I have a lot of 20+ year old audio stuff still going strong.

Some things like capacitors have a lifespan just due to their nature.

A McIntosh owner might also enjoy knowing that accidental "user error" type stuff can be repaired. It's pretty difficult to actually blow out an amplifier unless you're doing some real torture test type stuff; the fuses should blow before you can do any real damage. But still, after having plunked down megabucks on an amp, it's probably nice to know that your $10K or $20K investment can be repaired if you really manage to screw something up.

Not that I personally would ever consider owning McIntosh gear. I'm sure it's nice, but at the prices they're asking... I'm good.

I also bought a 10+ year old Denon amplifier and overall it's great, but over time it developed some minor issues with components like Alps potentiometers and switches. Unfortunately, Alps doesn't produce some of those parts anymore (like the ones discussed here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/source-for-alps-a...), so it's really not easy to source parts for repairs. It would be nice if you could simply ask the manufacturer to sell these components to you directly.

I bought a Bose home theater system but have been pretty unhappy with the purchase after spending $1500+. Poor visual aids, signal detection and touch controls, requiring frequent use of remote control due to flaky integration with the TV. The sound is very good but not exceptional. I hope they don't ruin this other brand.

I've owned two Bose headphones and both broke in unnecessary ways, especially the second where the plastic headband connecting the drivers broke and they would not simply repair it but I had to buy a new pair (so I bought Sony instead). I tend to buy somewhat high end products and no other brand breaks like this or at all, so I would hate to think what a low-end Bose would be like.

As an alternative anecdote, Ive used my bose qc 45s every day for two years without issue. I don't have experience with any other over-ear headphones to compare.

Idk, my QC 35 IIs from 2017 have been working just fine, and still sound pretty good. I travel with them all the time, and the only maintenance item for them are the ear pads, which are cheap and plentiful online. The battery still holds up, and there's an analog port for when it no longer holds a charge.

I didn't even buy them, work did, so it's not like I'm trying to justify the $349 MSRP (At the time).

The only thing that bugs me about them having to keep a micro usb cable around.

Their ear pads are terrible. I was extremely careful with mine, keeping them in my home office and carefully setting them down with the ear pads uncompressed when not in use. Nonetheless, the ear pad leather came apart in about a year.

Same with the pair I gave my father.

German friend visited with some 700's. (I think that's the model number; the sleek but uncomfortable redesign of a couple of years ago.) When he visited again the following year, their ear pads where likewise blown out.

In contrast, I have multiple models of inexpensive Chinese ANC headphones whose ear pads have survived significantly longer.

And, the official Bose ear pad replacements are $40 on Amazon (if they're even real...).

I don't buy Bose, anymore.

There are scads of third-party replacement pads on eBay for ~$10-15.

I've found them indistinguishable from the OEM ear pads.

> I've found them indistinguishable from the OEM ear pads.

Thank you. I was doubtful about the third-party replacements; I'll give them a try.

I still think it's scandalous that Bose ships them with such a crap failure rate.

(If they're expected to fail like this, then at least ship them with a few replacement pairs included. At least that would be honest, and at the price they charge, probably still profitable. /s )

I agree 100%.

I've kind of standardized on Bose headphones because even though I hate crap like that, they're so popular that there's a big ecosystem of replacement parts, batteries, etc.

It helps that the earpads have been unchanged across multiple generations: QC25/35/45 and I think their new ones as well. Everything but the Ultra and NC700. So I expect replacements should be available more or less indefinitely.

I've owned six pairs and they've been utterly problem-free.

Aside from the earpads, which are wear and tear items that are easily and cheaply replaced.

Admittedly they're used almost exclusively for desk duty.

(Reason I have so many pairs is because I have a number of workspaces, and I found it's easier to keep a pair of QC25s in each workspace rather than toting a single pair all over the place. Most of the QC25s were purchased used from eBay for cheap. I've also got a pair of QC45s.)

Another consolidation that won't make audiophiles very happy.

It also states Bose bought Sonus Faber as well.

Hopefully Bose doesn't kill the brand by changing the label to Bose-McIntosh.

McIntosh doesn't exactly have a lot of unique engineering these days. Maybe they did once, I don't know.

The way I see it, their name is their only real asset and I'm fairly certain Bose feels the same. It still carries a lot of weight. If you buy McIntosh you know you're getting something overbuilt, with a certain aesthetic, great aftermarket care, and probably great resale value. [1]

So I'd be pretty shocked if Bose messed with that at all.

----

[1] not that I think their gear is even remotely worth the money from what i've seen

Bose is a "premium" brand in the same way that people who don't know what high quality is buy expensive clothing with brand names think they're buying high fashion. The reality is that Bose is wildly boosted in certain frequencies to be louder, not better.

I haven't listened to a McIntosh system, but I know who they are from a friend who loved them and because they're sold at the home theater shop where I buy my own equipment. They're (as far as I know) an _actual_ premium brand, meant to represent the music faithfully.

This is an unfortunate purchase, as Bose will likely delude the value of the brand rather than absorb / import the quality into their own brand.

Not really "actually premium", more "very expensive", which is not the same thing. They do marketing integration with automakers, like Bose, which is a big red flag for an actual premium (in terms of sound) maker.

Most people like bass. Bose sells because normal people like the sound. Most people don’t really care and the choice is some random Amazon and Bose it’s probably going to win. My Bose Bluetooth lasted way longer than anker or other no name brands.

I wouldn’t say my Sonos speakers are good quality audio but it’s not bad. Plus, I can play music on 6 different speaker at the some time.

Maybe Bose can learn a thing or two and provide better quality across the line up.

Counterpoint: I got a Bose PA (S1) a couple of months ago. The frequency response isn't super flat, but it seems surprisingly well defined, and is better than the small keyboard amp it replaced.

I had a similarly dim view of Bose, but was pleasantly surprised.

Bose has never been bad, just that you can get the same quality at a lower price from other well respected brands.

I had a 1995 Camaro with a Bose stereo. Best car stereo I’ve ever heard. And possibly best stereo I’ve ever heard. And I’ve owned Mercedes S-class as well as custom installed car stereos.

That Camaro Bose actually had a tuned port subwoofer and used the rear glass to reflect the sound to the listener, while amping up mid-bass to balance out road noise.

It’s so good thet I’m looking for the exact same car 30 years later.

Bose is perfectly capable of high end audio engineering if they choose to.

I used to catch a ride to school with a guy who had that same model. That was a great system, very clear sound.

I can't find anything comparable to the S1 pro at even a comparable price.

McIntosh used to be like that (my father was blind and I grew up with McIntosh equipment). Whether they still are like that, I doubt it. Why? Because China drags the high quality products down.

Lot of angles here.

First principles: "good" audio reproduction is a lot more objective than most think. It turns out that what "sounds good" is... accurate signal reproduction, usually fitted to a target response curve (sometimes known as the Harman curve) that more or less corresponds to the Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curve. You also need enough dynamic headroom to reproduce the peaks in the listening material - this gets challenging when talking about material with large dynamic range like well-recorded classical, movie soundtracks, etc.

    The reality is that Bose is wildly boosted in certain 
    frequencies to be louder, not better.

This is true for some Bose products, not others. Their noise canceling headphones hew pretty closely to industry standard response curves, ie: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/b...

    [McIntosh] They're (as far as I know) an _actual_ premium 
    brand, meant to represent the music faithfully.

Speakers, even high-end speakers, tend to be distortion machines that do anything but represent music faithfully. They typically sound ear pleasing, and some brands (B&W, IMO) actually crank up the treble in order to sound more "detailed" and compensate for the diminished high frequency hearing of their target audience (aging male boomers with extra cash to blow) Exceptions are high end speakers (Genelec) designed for studio use, but you can also get pretty close to that level of performance from cheap JBL 3-series active monitors. (Depends on whether you need that last 1% or not)

As far as amplifiers, McIntosh's most famous products, reproducing music "faithfully?"

Well, even cheap < $100 chip amps on eBay do that well, objectively speaking.

What premium amps like McIntosh tend to have is oodles of sustained power and big beefy capacitors for even greater burst power for clean dynamic peaks even at high SPLs. You don't need to spend McIntosh-style megabucks to get that, but it's kinda like table stakes for a "premium" amp.

McIntosh has my favorite logo of all time

But are you McIntosh-pilled enough to pay $1500 for an empty box with their logo on it?

https://shop.mcintoshlabs.com/products/lb200-light-box

Fools and their money, etc etc

Wow only $1500? Black Friday is starting earlier and earlier.

It is an audiophile-grade empty box, designed to resonate only on even ordered harmonics with a state of the art damping curve.

http://tandy.wiki/Audiophile_Pricetag

Every single day I go to sleep with my head buried in my hands because I am not immoral enough to figure out some way of ripping off audiophiles.

You can sell them 3¢ hunks of plastic that do nothing for $150.

It's not even hurting anyone. They're all rich old dudes with dozens of guitars they never play hanging from their walls in a room filled with records they never listen to.

If I could figure out how to sell them 3¢ hunks of plastic that do nothing for $150 I would be very happy, but my conscience won't allow it.

It sounds like even your conscience is fed up with you.

You gotta act fast. Once all boomers are gone, the audiophile market will disappear.

Maybe a CD deionizer? Kinda like homeopathy for electronics. That way it doesn't even need to contain any elctronics. In your workshop on a mountain in Japan you let some electronics imbue it with their spirit. It doesn't even promise to add or remove anything but just "align" the ions!

I got a bottle of Three Chord bourbon last year. Holy cow the blurb on that bottle... something like "One day during a show I noticed how my drink sitting on my amp was vibrating..." and they freaking claim to play music at the casks.

This looks great. I guess it can also be used by McIntosh connoisseurs to leave their brains safe at home while traveling light.

While I agree with:

>> Fools and their money, etc etc

And certainly Mc is not what it used to be (the MC-1700 receiver for example, was great)... you are slamming an "empty box" unfairly. It has:

  - A light, well, ok, pretty empty.
  - Removable back wall. Eh, ok.
  - A IR to turn on and off devices.  Hrmm. 
  - It can control other DinkyLink devices (I did not make that up)
  - Trigger control to control other audio devices. Hrmm. 
  - It is a sturdy metal box (go online and purchase a nice one, I bet they are hundreds of bucks)

Not that it is worth $1500, maybe $300, and at the same quality as that box looks with the glass front, probably $500, but again, saying $1500 for empty box is kind of unfair.

To be honest, I have paid $300 for nice rackmount enclosures with handles that were custom made.

> It is a sturdy metal box (go online and purchase a nice one, I bet they are hundreds of bucks)

You can get a UL listed 16”x12”x4” electrical enclosure made of sheet steel for around $50 : https://www.mcmaster.com/product/75065K61

In fairness, that's a cheap, powder coated, folded-metal box so we're not really comparing like-with-like. If one of your goals is to have a nicely-coordinated system that's on display in your home, aesthetics do matter - you're paying for what you're getting, not some unscientific claim of "performance".

You never specified anything beyond “a sturdy metal box” ;)

I agree that a powder coated electrical enclosure would look out of place in a home A/V rack.

I’ll see your box and raise you a €1599 small foldable table

https://teenage.engineering/store/field-desk

That’s pretty funny.

I’m all for a little fun at ridiculous audio stuff (monster cables etc) Are we sure that’s not a misprint?

There other “accessories” are high but more reasonable.

https://shop.mcintoshlabs.com/collections/accessories

And the empty box is at the same price as the actually does something “Grateful Dead” limited edition mono Speaker.

https://shop.mcintoshlabs.com/collections/speakers/products/...

The cleaning cloth seems reasonable

https://shop.mcintoshlabs.com/products/mcintosh-cloth?pr_pro...

What a bargain! That's only $10 per cloth, I'll save a fortune compared to buying these all the time:

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MW693AM/A/polishing-cloth

That seems somewhat reasonably priced when you consider:

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MWUG2LL/A/pro-stand

So now they get to sell way lower end products with their newly purchased McIntosh logo slapped on with a huge markup! Everybody wins except the consumer!

For better or worse, the logo and markup is the reason this segment of the market buys these products. Cost-conscious customers always had and will retain the ability to get high-quality audio at a reasonable price.

Sadly I think the most cost-conscious way to get truly great quality audio these days is to buy/restore used vintage equipment. There isn't really as much of a market for high end but still affordable for mere mortals audio equipment as there was in the past. Prior to the invention and proliferation of home video playback which started in the late 70s and later the proliferation of home video game consoles people used to spend most of their home entertainment budget on audio equipment. The budget you'd set aside for buying a large TV, a few game consoles, etc. instead would be spent on a stereo so there was a much bigger market for audio equipment in what would be the $1-4k in today's dollars range.

Personally I use a set of big box speakers made by Bozak in 1958.

With modern digital electronics and their economies of scale, isn't getting great audio quality trivial nowadays?

I would've assumed anything from consumer brands in the upmarket range (without going all the way to "audiophile") would give you more than enough quality where the limiting factor becomes the room and physical environment rather than the playback equipment?

The physics of building a speaker have changed very little over the last several decades and companies give consumers what they want. Unfortunately for people that want great audio most consumers these days want smaller sizes and sub $500 price points so that's what the market is currently full of. There are some good options out there but not as many as in the past. Consumers want $100-200 soundbars so that's what there are hundreds of.

Another thing I forgot to mention about consumer preference is in amplifier design. Consumers prefer overall loudness over absolute fidelity, so Class D stereo amps are what's available.

Kinda funny that where I came from, Bose is already “high-end”…

Bose is a marketing company that happens to sell audio equipment, similar to how Oracle is a law firm that happens to sell software

Reply on news.ycombinator.com