Only buy a magnetic keyboard for gaming | Hacker News Reader

Only buy a magnetic keyboard for gaming

tomsguide.com

92 pointsamichail169 comments

I just don't get the obsession with eliminating the numpad. There are tons of interesting looking and innovative keyboards now and they all insist on making them as cramped as possible.

It makes sense on a laptop. But, if I already need to have a clear place on my desk for the keyboard and mouse, I'd rather just use an extra 2 inches to have the full size keyboard with the numpad and arrow keys that are not crammed against the rest of the keyboard.

Numpad forces you to move the more important piece of input equipment - mouse - further away. And with a properly aligned keyboard (none pictured in the article) it's better to have numpad near your right hand home row keys anyway to use with a modifier. Even more so for the cursor keys - instead of having to move your wrist back&forth you could just use the home row keys for that

They should put the numpad on the left side then, people can learn to hit numbers with left hand, I used to do this with a dedicated usb numpad

Considering most of the typing you do is with your left hand, I would think that would really decrease the efficiency of your typing.

But why would you need to relearn that when you can continue to use your right hand in a better position???

Same. I use my numpad constantly - Excel, programming, VoIP, calc, etc.

I don't use the number row above my keyboard except on rare occasions or to type the shifted characters. If I need to quickly type a number without looking, the numpad is the only way to do that (for me).

I tried a friends "compact" gaming keyboard, and then to the right of his keyboard was a separate "macro" keyboard which was basically just a numpad... so why not just have a numpad?

You could just get a separate numpad...

Numpads are specialist equipment now that data entry is much less common than the past, as everything is digitized/scanned.

The other advantage of a separate numpad is that you can position it for better ergonomics; a full sized keyboard usually forces either the mouse or the keyboard into a more awkward position.

There’s a loud category of people that are obsessed with looks and symmetry (over function) that a numpad breaks.

I doubt these folks do any meaningful numerical work, so they do not understand the convenience of the numpad.

Yes, but not doing a numerical work is perfectly fine use of a PC.

Edit: thinking more about it, I’d rather use a solar cell powered ble enabled calculator with all the usual buttons (M*, +-, C/AC, <, etc) and a screen, rather than having a built-in or separate numpad which sucks for one-hand input anyway.

> which sucks for one-hand input anyway

Wait, what?

Unless you’re hunting-and-pecking, a numpad IS the job for one-handed number input.

My reason for using a no-keypad keyboard on the desktop is entirely functional: reaching for the mouse (a very common motion) is faster.

And as a bonus, I can type numbers faster on the top row than I could on a keypad since I'm using 8 fingers, and my hands stay in home position for mixing with letters and other symbols. Combine that with being easily able to switch to a laptop keyboard and still type at full speed -- I've just never seen the point of a keypad.

Makes me wonder if with practice I could switch from numpad to the number row for numbers. Currently my brain doesn't work like that, but I had to learn how to type letters all those years ago, so it has to be the same. But I have to "unlearn" how I currently type numbers.

I was laptop only for several years. I thought I’d be able to unlearn. Once I got a proper desk setup again, using a numpad was like riding a bike.

I want the option of having the numpad at the left side of the keyboard.

The asymmetric nature of having it at the right side drives me crazy.

I want my hands at the middle of the keyboard, not cramped to the left side, with so much space at the right, for keys I almost never use.

Having said that, my current keyboard has no numpad.

This layout exists, it’s a little rare, it’s called a “Southpaw” layout - vendors like Keychron have ready to ship models.

Some keyboards come with a wireless numpad which can be freely repositioned, such as the old MS ergonomic keyboard. Although, wireless does come with its own battery and responsiveness issues.

My GF loves this setup and always has the numpad in a random spot on her desk depending out what she's doing. She loves the idea that if she's doing excel stuff she can put it right in the middle of her hands below the keyboard. Not using it all? Move it completely out of the way. Doing Data Viz stuff? She likes it on the left hand side of the keyboard.

Not sure why this option isn't more popular tbh since you can put the numpad where you want it.

Agreed. This is my preferred setup, and over the years I've bought several of the MS ergonomic keyboards the GP mentioned.

With the separate numpad you can position it just above the mousepad so it's still easily accessible, but you have minimal movement distance between typing and using the mouse. To me it's the best of both worlds, and it's strange to me that it isn't more common to sell the two as a package. I suppose the assumption is that people who want numpad will just buy a 90% keyboard and numpad separately.

If you have programmable keyboard then it's trivial to throw numpad into a layer if you so wish and avoid the ergonomic problems of conventional numpad. Especially if you have ortholinear layout then the difference between real numpad and a layered one should be small.

Overall the ergonomic trend seems to be towards reducing wrist movement, thats why layouts like Corne are relatively popular, you can basically keep your hands at "home row position" all the time.

I do also think that numpads are also simply just less useful today than they were 10 or 20 years ago. Back in the days lot of data was still on paper or some other disconnected form. But these days? Where are you getting all those numbers that you are entering on numpad? What numeric data are you handling that is not already on your computer? I really do believe there has been shift in workflows so that people are far less typing in strings of numbers all the time.

If you're right handed and use the mouse right handed, the increase in angle of your right arm is a lot harder on your shoulder over time.

My keyboard has no influence on mouse placement though? My mouse is not positioned laterally to the keyboard, it's diagonally in front and to the right or on a completely separate pullout with mouse pad. Not to mention, I almost never use it.

Your mouse not positioned laterally to the keyboard is atypical for gaming.

I strongly recommend learning to mouse with your nondominant hand, at least for tasks that don’t require a ton of precision. Saved me a ton of shoulder pain.

Or use a touchscreen in combo with the mouse -- touch for simple button pushing or gestures. Works great on my laptop, I use the trackpoint stick, trackpad, and touchscreen for various tasks whichever one makes the most sense at the moment.

I have never missed the numpad, as I am not an accountant.

I've thought like this before but it's nice having a smaller keyboard, you can keep your hands closer together which is nice and unless you’re doing a lot of accounting, you don't really regularly use the numpad. Best configuration I've found is to have a separate numpad/macro keypad that you can keep off to the side on your desk.

Same man. Reduced size keyboards are absolutely awful to use and I have no idea how anyone can stand them. 100% or nothing.

They are not awful, you just don't like them for your use cases.

It is popular in PC FPS gaming to have a smaller keyboard so you can go more distance to the left with your mouse hand before running out of space. Have you never hit your keyboard with your mouse? More likely to happen when playing with lower DPI/sensitivity. I don't use numpad for anything while gaming so it's extra space I'm happy to get rid of. All these people saying they don't get why someone would want a smaller keyboard are probably confused because they don't play FPS or games that require mouse space beyond their 6 inch mousepad.

Some gamers even position their keyboards at very harsh angles or nigh perpendicular to their body all just to make more space.

I bought a keyboard without the numpad about ten years ago and rarely miss it (I do have the arrows and keys above them). I would miss it with my work keyboard, but I don't miss it on my personal use gaming PC.

Just add a USB 10 key keyboard. Actually, it'd be neat if they made a keyboard with a detachable 10 key portion. Add a USB port so it can plug into the larger keyboard as an accessory.

There's the Everest line of keyboards by MOUNTAIN that does that, although they've recently had very massive sales (like 60-70% off type stuff) so idk if the company's doing alright.

I don't like moving across the numerical keypad area with my right hand every time I switch from typing to mousing. That extra few inches adds up over a long coding session.

I don't get the tiny keyboard obsession either, I've got a tenkeyless so no numpad but an area for arrow keys, page up/down etc. and it's a good compromise. For me, the numpad would conflict with what I already put next to my keyboard--my trackpad.

I got a nice numpadless mechanical keyboard to conserve my deskspace, and because I never used the numpad anyway. Then I promptly got into Blender, which makes great use of the numpad for zooming, rotating etc.

Off to buy another keyboard...

I agree. I really like the Keydous NJ98 CP he V2 something that's full sized with hall effect, BUT ut also is compatible with regular mechanical switches. It really should be a standard.

What's especially bad is those that remove FN keys. I'm convinced that anybody that's okay with that doesn't use keyboard shortcuts very often.

I was given a 75% keyboard and I just can't get used to the spacing. Plus I miss my numberpad.

I want a separate numpad on the far side of the mouse (or left side of the desk) for RSI reasons.

Using Razer as an example, the full size keyboard is 6 inches wider than a 60%, and 3.5 inches larger than the 80%.

You said 2 inches but it’s actually half the width of a 13” laptop.

I can fit a compact keyboard and a trackpad in the size of a normal keyboard.

A full size numpad keyboard gave me wrist pain, since my hands were spread out while using the mouse! Plus I like having more desk space.

I do have a full size keyboard in my closet just in case I have to use excel someday!

if you have your left hand on WSAD and right hand on the mouse then having the numpad in the way makes the sitting posture less natural

that's the reason

Well, I personally don’t mind removal of numpad because it is badly designed. Telephone style numpad are a much better design. I have no idea on why we are stuck with such a bad design.

The problem is mainly that normal numpad placement is for left mouse users.

For anyone wondering, this is the keyboard in the image at the top of the article: https://nuphy.com/collections/he-keyboards/products/nuphy-fi...

I was intrigued by the design so I wanted to share.

I bought this in their pre-release sale and sold it immediately after the first day. It’s incredibly large and heavy, cheap keycaps, action doesn’t really feel nice for typing, latency was high, wired only, and I could not find a good use for the multi-stage-activation feature.

With the high latency (I measured up to 90ms at 1000hz which is ridiculously high), and competitive games banning use of macros, it’s pretty useless for gaming.

I also have a poor experience with a Nuphy wireless keyboard - it suffers terribly from interference. If the dongle is further than a ft away, especially if there's no line of sight, then it has terrible latency + will miss keypresses + double keypress.

I still use it every day and have for a couple years now, but it's annoying to have to have the keyboard so close to my dock.

Makes me wonder what Logitech is doing differently with their 2.4ghz dongles that makes them work so well.

Interesting, their configuration tool runs in browser and they explicitly mention linux; I don't have much experience with gaming keyboards but the only one I bought in the past had some windows-only configuration software and was a bit of a pain.

(this keyboard does not appear to be QMK-based, but for the record) any keyboard that runs QMK (an open-source firmware for keyboards) will offer the same experience. web-based configurator and full linux support.

Nuphy's other keyboards, such as the Air v2 (which I own and use), are QMK based. It's just the hall effect keyboards that aren't.

I think mean to say QMK?

Configuration stored _on the device_ and not needing the software to autorun every time you reboot to get your settings back, should really be a no-brainer. There's unfortunately enough gaming keyboards and mice out there who haven't got this yet.

I'd love to see some standard HID feedback channel for interactive keyboard LED control. My previous Logitech keyboard had some fun interactions with Factorio that I miss. Things like flashing a specific letter or using the backlighting to show a progress bar.

This is why WebUSB/WebBT is a good thing, you can build configuration tools that run anywhere and are easily ported offline or replicated.

"Handy" and "a good thing" are not the same thing.

USB and BT are security nightmares, and the browser is a fantastic sandbox. I'm pretty sure a lot of 0-days will come from there.

As always you have a choice between things existing at all on Linux or fretting about the security issues that so far have not materialized.

Many mechanical keyboards use firmware works with Web Apps that use WebUSB/WebHID APIs to allow easy cross-platform configuration. It's a welcome change over dedicated desktop software for your keyboard. All the configuration is stored and behavior is managed on the keyboard itself. This doesn't get you cool things like keyboard LED interactivity, but I can live without that.

RAZR is the worst offender here

I'm usually ambivalent about keyboards but... that one looks pretty sick. I'm still using a Filco Majestouch for my gaming / day to day use but it's at the end of its lifetime, some buttons need to "warm up" a bit before they register nowadays.

Shame they don't make a full sized keyboard.

We'll see. As of the latest testing, mechanicals still show the best single-key latency performance.

I got an ROG Azoth awhile back for that reason.

Would be nice to see how far they can push the technology though!

Given that the time to physically press the key down is a part of the latency, Hall Effect could easily beat out Mechanical in the long run. After all, you can make it almost arbitrarily sensitive.

EDIT: Looks like wired mechanicals at the top end are tied (0.8ms) with the best Halls (0.8ms) and a bit better than the best wireless 2.4Ghz (1.7ms). Mea culpa. We still need more test data on Halls in general though. Removed my comment about Wireless being better - though generally wireless 2.4 GHz beats out all but the top-end wired keyboards.

Could you expand on the complicated reasons? Or have a resource handy? Is it Bluetooth wireless or 2.4GHz radio adapter wireless that’s faster?

Among other things, the USB host polls the keyboard at a fixed rate. Fantastic breakdown if you have 30 minutes: https://youtu.be/wdgULBpRoXk

2.4GHz radio is faster than most wired connections - though the top-end ones with custom high-hertz implementations are slightly better than wireless.

Radio is also generally significantly more consistent - even when the polling rates are identical. You can see this if you look at the testing done by RTings for mice and keyboards. The latency when using 2.4GHz wireless is extremely consistent, while for standard wired connections, the latency varies drastically from input to input.

Bluetooth is crap and should never be used for gaming inputs. It's both high latency and inconsistent.

Lower latency than PS/2?

That's harder to say, there aren't exactly a glut of PS/2 keyboards and mice these days or thorough testing data. And for good reason.

But the best keyboards these days approach around 0.8 ms: https://www.rtings.com/keyboard/reviews/corsair/k100-air

the article you linked measures the receiver latency at 2.8ms though. does the k100 use some higher power version of wireless when plugged in? I imagine it's just usb when plugged in.

Also the field75 he mentioned in the OP does tie that keyboard's wired latency:

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard/tools/table/152444

You're right! Looks like I picked a misread the latency and picked a bad example.

Best wireless mechanical is: https://www.rtings.com/keyboard/reviews/asus/rog-falchion-rx... (1.7ms @ 1kHz)

Best wired mechanical would be the Corsair Air 100 I linked at 0.8ms, tied with a Field75 which is also wired.

This is a very surprising result.

Isn't USB+2.4GHz modem by nature going to introduce more latency than just USB?

Is it directly connected to wireless somehow? Pcie card or something?

I bought a magnetic keyboard recommended on HN back in 2019. I was underwhelmed by it. Mostly because it was the Keystone and is still listed as "under production" on Kickstarter. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lekashman/keystone-the-... . I still hold out on hope that one day, it will magically arrive.

> An Open Source Analog Keyboard with Adaptive Typing AI.

So the keyboard learns your current mistakes and fixes them in the future. This sounds excellent except once you get used to having your mistakes fixed for you, you become dependent to this type of keyboard. Personally I'm not ready for AI keyboards, I like the control I have over what I type, mistakes and all.

I hope it works out for you and get your moneys worth... How much did you pay for yours?

I agree, I was primarily attracted to the modularity and magnetic features. Luckily, only $150 of 2019 money.

Ouch, you've been waiting for 5 years?

Not OP but IIRC it took over three years for my Keyboard.io Model 01 to arrive.

I was afraid the money was lost at about the two year mark so it was a nice bonus when they finally started actually producing and shipping the thing.

I've been more reluctant with kickstarters ever since...

The Keystone keyboard is never going to ship. The Kono web store is currently doing a rug pull and scamming their customers.

Many of the reasons for wanting a hall-effect keyboard are reasons I wouldn't want one, others I find no value in. I feel like the only people who would enjoy a hall effect keyboard are people using the tactile-less cherry red switches, which is only small fraction of keyboard users

If the tactile feedback both existed and was adjustable, and didn't cost more than like 5-10% over a mechanical switch, it might take off more. But for now as neat as it is, it feels extremely niche. If someone wants different activation pressures and distances, they can buy different mechanical switches and would be missing out on basically nothing.

I tried reading this article with genuine interest but the page crashed for me on iOS :(

This seems to be happening more often in the back half of 2024. IGN crashes nearly every page view for me these days.

This is because sites like this shove ads in every conceivable whitespace on the page, so you have ads/videos/images and JavaScript loading and executing from all corners of the internet. What was once a page that was supposed to give you text and images is now executing all kinds of shit you don't want or need, burning up your CPU and battery and giving you a truly horrible, janky experience even on newer phones or desktops. If you visit these sites on older phones, it's truly excruciating. All for some text of what could have been a comment on a site like this, or a blog post on a statically-hosted site which costs next to nothing to run.

Here was my experience on an M1 Mac Mini with 16GB of RAM, in Safari with no extensions:

https://imgur.com/RDv2n7Z

This is why I have absolutely zero qualms with using an ad blocker to the fullest extent I can.

I hate what these people do to computers.

I love that you captured this!

Ironically as I watched your video on Imgur, a full screen ad popped up over top of it on Imgur itself :,(

The irony of uploading it to imgur is not lost on me :)

I could host videos myself if I still had a 2 gigabit connection but that was left behind in my most recent move.

I feel you there. And my recent move was into a city, too, that ended up having even less options than my previous suburban abode. They never laid down fiber here and still have no plans to.

Yeah, that link showed the intended content taking up about a quarter of my screen real estate with the rest being ads. It was a ad-inception.

Here it is on an iPhone 13 mini running the latest iOS with AdGuard content blocker and Stop The Madness Pro extensions enabled:

https://imgur.com/a/aBBvVum

I can't load the page at all without the extensions. On AdGuard I'm using only the content blocker filters that don't have access to the page itself, not the advanced filter which does.

The AdGuard content blocker is my favorite for Safari even on desktop. I can't imagine browsing without it enabled.

1. Use Firefox.

2. Use Privacy Badger.

3. Block Google Tag Manager.

All popups gone. Page works fine.

Privacy Badger warns that some sites won't work with Google Tag Manager blocked, but in practice, that does not seem to be a serious problem. Although some will route you through Cloudflare's CAPTCHA barrier for that, you can still get in.

If a site won't work with strong ad blocking, I stop using it.

Strange, I don’t see any ads in the article. Maybe you turned your adblocker off accidentally?

PC choices are obvious, for ios I’m using AdGuard app that integrates as Safari content filter (blocks almost the same as ubo).

> in Safari with no extensions

I was just demonstrating how shitty the site is if you aren't using any blockers.

That gif says it all.

I was reading this article on an Iphone some hours ago. But gave up because of the ads.

Guys, just stop watching ads. Ads are so 201x. AdGuard is available on ios for at least a decade now.

No, it’s not a separate “adblock browser”. It works as a content filtering rules source for Safari. It does not see what you’re doing or visiting (unless you insist in the settings).

Incentivizing publishers to load massive amounts of third party JavaScript was an industry mistake and the people who write JavaScript for ads are profoundly irresponsible and unprofessional.

Which is why i block all 3rd party js by default. If your website requires 3rd party js and it is not essential for me to really visit it, most prob i am just gonna close it.

It's not even that good of an article. I tried to understand what Hall Effect is and what its advantages are, but it was so vague, beating around the bush and forwarding you to other articles on their site, that I gave up and searched on the YT mechanical keyboards channels instead.

Here's a nice intro review of a Hall Effect keyboard, from Switch and Click, which explains its features and differences compared to a normal switch keyboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNANUquoXOA

I tried to understand what Hall Effect is and what its advantages are, but it was so vague, beating around the bush and forwarding you to other articles on their site, that I gave up and searched on the YT mechanical keyboards channels instead.

Hall effect switches have been used in model railroading for a couple of generations now. Very often to stop and start engines in hard-to-reach places with a wand.

Here's an explanation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor

Much appreciated, glad to learn something new today.

I recently started using Firefox Focus enabled as an extension in iOS Safari, and it works great as an ad blocker. The op site loads for me. Was a hn rec from another thread I think.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/firefox-focus-privacy-browser/...

Same here.

Hilarious that anti-annoyance software is now needed, not only to make sites nicer, but to make them functional.

Not to mention the popup that scrolled me back to the beginning of the article.

Agreed. Also happened to me on this page and I’ve seen it become more common. I wonder if there is a common gaming-related ad service which does this since it feels like the EXACT behavior I see on IGN.

iOS is genuinely terrible. I appreciate the point that so is web design for many sites, but even if you ignore that, 97% of bugs on our product with no cookies, ads, analytics etc come from iOS. My favourite time burner right now is when apple pushed for new viewport units and then don't respect them. Their address bar animated design is atrocious.

iOS comes with the setting to open every web page in reader view by default, which kills all ads, cookie popus, autoplaying videos, sticky headers, etc.

It's not hard to design beautiful and usable websites, which works on all devices from the past 10-15 years.

Analogue controls are indeed an awesome concept for a keyboard. Has anyone shipped any "revolutionary" default setups, e.g., from tiny things like making your pinky suffer less by having lower actuation point to making shallow actuation type lowercase and deeper actuation type uppercase or longer holds on arrow keys accelerating the movement?

Pity, though, the progress is still stalled on the actual layout - the ergonomic splits and other improvements are still a tiny niche

The brand "Das Keyboard" did that almost 20 years ago on a non-mechanical keyboard. The activation forces were tuned in exactly that way across the keyboard. The keycaps also didn't have any legends on them, so it targeted the nerdy/elitist audience a bit. Their later keyboards seem to have gone for uniform mechanical switches though.

NYT article about it from back then: https://archive.is/ANcdu and a picture of it from wikipedia showing the lack of legends on the keycaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Keyboard#/media/File:DasKe...

These days, it wouldn't be that hard to make yourself. Various brands of mechanical keyboard switches come in a variety of activation forces. Get a keyboard with swappable switches, and tune the weights to your own preference. For example, on my keyboard I use these switches with a 67g weight, but could get some 62g and 65g ones for the pinky keys.

https://zealpc.net/products/zilent?variant=5894832324646

"Endgamed" keyboard nerd here, and I was able to find different boards that were better for certain roles, until I got to WFH full time. These newfangled magnets aren't convincing enough for me to ditch my workhorses.

I had an HHKB-looking mechanical 60%, and just remapped a few things to be nicer for programming. Function key instead of caps lock, and suddenly so much was at my fingertips. Something like Fn-IJKL for arrows, and pageup/dn, home/end, located somewhere reasonable relative to the arrows. And, a bright red anodized aluminum case, which had a built-in angle, making it very nice to use. More pinky movements than usual, but I made sure to have Fn keys on both sides, to be able to give one or the other a break.

The Preonic '50%' is also pretty neat, and I was pretty productive with the default layout. Hand size was a bit of an issue, but once again, everything I could need was under my fingers with a layer change or two, or some 2-key-combo layer.

Gaming was a nonstarter on either of those boards. I need to at least have a TKL or 65+%, and have it be a sturdy tank. I love my NK87, and use it with Kailh Crystal Box Pink switches. Used to use Box Jades, but these Pinks are crispy.

If someone wanted to get crazy about their mech board and individual key strength, properties, etc, there's a dead simple option of "Buy the stiffer/softer switch as well, install in desired position". Hot-swap sockets are on plenty of keyboards these days, and I've totally heard of people using stiffer switches on the spacebar.

I wonder if with a sufficiently fast ADC measuring each switch's voltage transition, you might be able to do velocity detection with normal switches? I guess might need an ADC wired to each switch rather than row/column matrix scan.

HE sensors measure distance, if you measure often enough get velocity out of that. Linear switches should be able to do the same thing (I know almost nothing about linear switches so I might be wrong)

Edit: HE sensors not switches. HE naturally measures distance, but there are switches that have electronics that provide an on/off signal thus making the term switch not useful. If you buy a HE switch make sure you know which style you are getting.

No, not with any useful degree of granularity. The electrical contacts aren't directly driven by the mechanical switch, they mostly rely on their own spring tension to make the connection. The mechanical part simply separates them.

By measuring contact bounce, you can probably detect the difference between fast and slow presses, but not much more. Maybe three or four levels total

Considering that mechanical switches have to be debounced, how would that work?

I guess you'd record the curve of the first transition, and the after the debounce period has elapsed you'd use that curve to emit the appropriate key signal. Or alternatively you could use the whole analogue sequence as input for the key detection (assuming no limits on compute power etc). Neural net powered keystrokes!

Would be a fun way to implement a modal text editor. Full press for normal mode, light press for insert mode. Could be unintentionally hilarious though.

I learned about this on Optimum Tech on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feny5bs2JCg and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxEa7k8j1Ro

Does anyone have experience if these provide tactile feedback?

There’s lots of discussion about the actuation point, but is there a “click” feel?

I’ve had a lot of wrist strain issues over the last 20 years. I tried many “ergonomic” keyboard layouts, but ultimately switching to a standard ikcb CD108 with Cherry MX brown fixed my issue. The click stops me from mashing the keys too hard, which seems to be the primary root cause (for me).

You can't easially do adjustable actuation points and a click feel so I doubt it. They can put a click in someplace, but that is a mechanical operation which means either it is fixed at the factory or you need to take a screwdriver (or something) to each key to adjust. The nice thing about hall effect switches is you can choose the actuation point(s!) in software making it quick and easy to change until you find what works, but software cannot adjust a mechanical click.

I can think of a couple ways to adjust a mechanic click from software. You could put gears and a stepper motor in the keyboard to adjust where the click is (you of course need to design a click mechanism as the keys don't have it) - this would be complex, fragile, and expensive (likely large as well). You could put a coil under each switch and fire that when the key actuates to provide a force change. There are probably others. I have no idea how practical anything is, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying it if you are interested - it sounds like a fun project (of the type I don't have time for)

This article is about GAMING keyboards. Magnetic keyboards seems to offer some nice features gamers will use. However for general typing a traditional mechanical keyboard may well be better: do not feel bad about using Cherry MX browns if they work for you (I use them myself, but I'm trying to figure out if my budget allows for a model F) - the only downside is in competitive games you may lose to someone who has a keyboard that can do things yours cannot.

I’ve done a project connecting hall effect sensors to vibration motors. You could put a tiny vibration motor in each key cap and set different vibration intensity and timing patterns based on the hall effect readings. You could have the intensity slowly rise as you approach an activation point, then suddenly drop off right before and at activation to mimic the resistance of a physical switch.

Could use mobile phone haptic feedback technology in the keycaps, or maybe in the body of the keyboard?

Some old IBM keyboards had a solenoid built in, thumping the inside of the case with every key press to provide feedback. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qw6ebySet0&t=906s

Probably the most practical DIY option.

Maybe, might be worth a shot. It won't be as easy on a phone because you need to feel the feedback only in the key your pressed and not all the other keys your fingers might be one (potentially starting to press but not yet activated).

Something else for someone who has time to work on. Have fun.

I had optical "clicky" switches in my Wooting One TKL, so it is possible. In hindsight I would not go for the clicky or even tactile ones again, but use linear switches, because the great thing about optical and HE switches is that you can select the actuation point to your own typing style, which of course is not possible with switches that provide mechanical feedback.

Do you prefer a click or a quiet tactile bump? The MX browns you describe are a light quiet tactile switch.

Most of these Hall effect keyboards are all running linear switches - no tactility whatsoever. I’ve seen a handful of switches which are HE and tactile, but I’ve not tried them. Glorious Panda HE are a notable model - if the name is consistent with their past efforts these should be significantly more tactile than the MX Browns you currently use.

I use the boba u4 silents and I consider them to be my endgame switch. It has a very crisp bump despite being quieter than pretty much any other keyboard in my office. I've had them for about 2 years and nothing else has caught my eye since I got them.

These hall effect dealios do sound interesting but I've never liked linear. I dont think I'm interested in changing the actuation point since it would be desynchronized from the bump point. As far as analog controls go, I have controllers for that.

Ohh cool I didn’t know ZealPC was making HE switches

I recently decided to upgrade my 10+ year old Corsair mechanical keyboard, and learned about these fancy magnetic ones. I ended up getting a Wooting Two HE and I love it. It definitely feels like a generational leap and I doubt I'll go back to mechanical.

I'm not a competitive gamer, but being able to have so much control over the key activation is cooler than I expected. Also, having analog WASD movement in a first person game is super intuitive. Unfortunately, a lot of games don't support it because they try to be smart and switch between "gamepad mode" and "keyboard mode", not letting you use both at once. So you gotta do some research to find compatible ones (Half Life 2 works mostly, but climbing ladders is buggy)

Also, even though I'm generally a fan of Corsair, I decided to not buy their magnetic keyboard even though it would've been an obvious progression from my previous one (which was excellent for over a decade). Why? Because Corsair's iCUE software sucks, and Wooting's is not only way better, it also officially supports Linux via an AppImage!

Omg to hell with that ad-infested site

What ads? https://ublockorigin.com/

I use uBlock Origin and there are still multiple affiliate-link "deal" inserts throughout the article

An ergonomic keyboard with good tactile feedback would be my holy grail. If someone knows of a good one, please send it my way.

Kinesis Advantage2, brown switches, look no further.

From the perspective of a programmer using vim, the Advantage2 is mankind's peak achievement in the field of computer keyboards.

https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage2-keyboard/

Can't imagine having this on my desk at work..

Wouldn't something like the moonlander be better?

I type with the Advantage2 on my lap.

The Advantage2 keyboard geometry gives you many landmarks, so even if you don't touch-type your hands can find the keys. In other words, even if you have poor keyboard technique (lifting your hands, pecking, etc.) this keyboard is a big win.

Recommend you don't waste time on inferior alternatives like ZSA Moonlander, but maybe that will be your mistake ("learning opportunity") along the way to the peak.

oh that's brilliant. Can't do that with the moonlander.

https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/

There is (or was?) a Dutch keyboard maker called Wooting who has been offering alternative switches like optical and hall effect switches for a few years. I owned their Wooting One TKL and it was really nice. They always had issues with availability, and AFAIK they never offered a 70% HE keyboard, so I ended up with a Keychron with yellow mechanical switches. I still think those optical or HE switches are the best, and it was a bit sad to see that small Dutch company not getting their products out of the door.

Edit: Thanks for the corrections in the comments below.

Wooting is still around and still makes HE keyboards. They offer 60% and 80%, but not 70% models.

Perhaps I'm just unaware, but I thought Wooting was the company behind HE keyboards becoming a commercial product. When they did their first HE keyboard I certainly didn't see any other HE keyboards on the market. I would still be using Wooting if they had a Low-profile HE version.

It seems that while I've been not paying attention, HE keyboards have become a thing finally and, more importantly, Low-Profile HE keyboards are now a thing. This makes me super happy as I only use LP keyboards now days. I love my Keychron K15 Pro!

Yeah, they have a 80% HE keyboard on their website, but again only for preorder. I really wish for them that they can achieve the delivery by mid of December, but personally I will only consider buying one once they actually have it in stock.

I actually bought their full-size HE keyboard (the Wooting Two HE) recently. It was out of stock on their website, but I was able to find a reseller that had them available pretty easily, and their price was only like $5 higher than on Wootings own website.

Wooting is in fact mentioned in TFA.

Would love to have a ergonomic hall effect keyboard!

I daily drive the Moonlander, both for work and gaming, and it's honestly really good. Would be awesome to get a similar keyboard but with magnetic keys.

I've never heard the term "magnetic keyboard" before. They're called hall-effect keyboards...

For those not in the know, hall-effect key switches can tell the analog position of each key, rather than only whether it's pressed or not as in traditional key switches.

Right, but the hall effect sensor measures the strength of a magnetic field.

The key/switch has a little magnet on the stem and the hall effect sensor is measuring the strength of the magnetic field as the magnet moves up/further & down/closer to the sensor.

> Right, but the hall effect sensor measures the strength of a magnetic field.

Yes I recognize that. But I've seen hall-effect keyboard many, many times and magnetic keyboard never (before this post). I guess some company decided to call their keyboard a magnetic keyboard and now a specific subset of people think they're all called that - even though they've been called hall-effect keyboards since their inception.

I don’t know the marketing reasons behind hall effect keyboard v/s magnetic keyboard, but a technical reason for calling it magnetic keyboard is that they are probably not actually using hall effect sensors.

Hall effect sensor is commonly used to refer to any magnetic field sensor but there are many others types. Given the size of the keys I suspect they are actually MEMS Lorrentz force sensors, so “magnetic keyboard” might be more correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMS_magnetic_field_sensor

Reading this brought something to my mind that I had not yet considered. With the rise in popularity of esports, we're getting to a strange place where there is very professional gear for playing games, that is specifically suited to the high intensity, quick reactions of professional athlete. Whether you think that is an appropriate term is not an issue, people are getting paid for this and they play at a much different level that most of us plebes do.

But then you have people who play casually--and let me be clear here, even if you are very good and only play ranked competitive matches, if it's not your job, you're who I'm talking about--who get this same gear. They deck themselves out like the pros for what is, essentially, a hobby. Is that weird? I don't know. People who head out to the local basketball court typically go with only a Spalding they bought at Walmart. Folks who play a little footy on the weekends might buy shin guards, but otherwise just head out to a field.

I don't know where I'm really going with all this, it just seems odd that a person would say one should buy a keyboard that allows for 1mm actuation, when the vast, vast majority of game players wouldn't even be able to tell the difference.

There are tons of sports where the amateurs end up buying top of the line gear.

People will spend thousands to ride the same bikes the Tour de France riders do. You can spend crazy amounts on basketball shoes, sweat wicking synthetic shirts and all sorts of other gear that LeBron uses.

If there is a sport that requires buying specialized equipment, there are people buying stuff that is completely unnecessary for their use case.

More so with "rich people" sports, like golf.

One of the reason professional golf players get a lot of money for sponsorship deals.

Peaked in Silver in Valorant, lemme tell you, the hardware isn't much of a gamechanger after a certain price/quality point. I'm just a very tactile guy, and like diving down rabbit holes for stuff that suits me. My input devices are how I interact with the world, so, why not take some care to find one that sparks joy?

Kids these days who are 'graduating' from default laptop keyboard, $40 wireless keyboard/mouse combo, etc to "Hardware I picked out for myself" have plenty of good options, considering how hardware has gotten SO much nicer over the few decades I've been using it.

The 1mm actuation thing is probably for advertising how 'good/sensitive/capable' their switches are. I would personally never use something like that, what with my heavy hands. Little Timmy, on the other hand, is wading through a bunch of actually-decent mass-market options, and may see 1mm actuation as "WOW, NOTHING HAS EVER BEEN THIS GOOD!"

You get this everywhere.

There's amateur photographers who have a super-expensive camera.

Weekend artists with a cupboard full of the pricest paints and papers.

Super-expensive bicycles that only get ridden a few days a year.

The cool feature of hall effect keyboards is the ability to set multiple actuation points on a key.

For racing games, that means a real throttle.

And it's also nice with FPS games to have the W key mapped at half-press to W, and full-press to SHIFT and W. Most FPS games require you to press an additional key (such as shift) to run, even though you'll spend 99.99% of your time running.

That being said, I wouldn't buy a keyboard (magnetic or otherwise) for more than $50.

If you aren't a gamer is a keyboard with this tech worth looking at?

If you like mechanical keyboards with relatively light to mid-weight linear switches, you’ll probably enjoy Hall effect switches.

Being contactless, they’re extremely smooth, quiet and reliable, and being able to set the actuation point exactly where you want it is a very nice bonus.

I’ve been using a Monsgeek M1 HE (I think probably still the cheapest option on the market, even though it’s an incredibly solid block of aluminium) since the summer, mostly just for coding, and for me it’s the best keyboard I’ve ever used.

If your preference is for tactile/clicky switches, or heavier linear switches that you hit hard enough to bottom out, or you’re perfectly happy with any old membrane keyboard, it’s probably not worth the expense.

The question that should have been answered, but wasn't.

Since booleans default to false, I would say: no.

More seriously, if you assign different meanings to a key relating to how deep it gets pressed, it will result in lots of key misses I suppose. You will have to develop a piano feel, but for a piano there is a correlation with loudness.

So if you define a soft action for a gentle press on space, and a "stronger" action for a deep press on space, maybe you can do useful things without fucking up your typing.

Things like: going to

  start of word, (soft)
  start of sentence (medium)
  column 0 (hard)

But i am a bit wary about how precise and consistent the board will be. But if it works, it might save on key combinations to learn.

slam the keys hard enough and you get all caps?

I got one a couple months ago, I _really_ enjoy typing on it and use it for programming. Perhaps I just never found the right mechanical keyboard, but it feels like my fingers just glide over it when typing.

There's no tactile feedback when the switch activates, but you can adjust the actuation point of the switch to where it feels comfortable to you. I've set mine to be just about as sensitive as possible.

Do you fully press (or mostly fully press) your keys when you type? If so, then no, Hall Effect keyboards probably aren't going to get you anything a mechanical keyboard won't. The headline feature is extremely high sensitivity, i.e. you barely have to tap the key for it to register.

To me, the headline feature is full control of sensitivity, in real-time if you want.

A standard mechanical keyboard has a fixed actuation point. If you want to change that you need to replace the switches. A Hall-Effect keyboard allows you to tune the actuation point exactly where you like. You can also tune the actuation and reset points independently and even in relation to each other. That allows you to have a reset on a slight raise of the finger without having to raise past as absolute point in travel.

As an example of how the analog nature of HE keyboard could be useful, you could (in theory) set it up so that key repeat rate is adjusted based on how far past actuation you have the key. So, if I press harder the key repeats faster. Sure, you can solve the same problem with navigation shortcuts, but the point is that having a keyboard that captures an analog value for each key opens a wide range of possible use cases. I'm personally ecstatic that they are finally releasing Low-Profile HE keyboards.

The tunable actuation/analog sensitivity are really cool, but I was trying to look at it from the perspective of a programmer. The tunable actuation might be nice if you have a very particular way of touch-typing, but I (and most people I know) fully depress keys as they type, or at least they come very close to it. I personally use low profile Gateron Browns in my Keychron K3 Pro, and I bottom them out on nearly every keystroke.

And sure, the analog travel sensing is really cool too. You could make a keyboard do a lot of things with that, but as a dev I can't think of something I'd want my keyboard to do with that feature.

One thing I do find exciting is the potential longevity of a keyswitch with no electrical contacts except for the ones that connect the key to the circuit board.

I think that's what I like most about typing on a HE keyboard, you don't have to press the key all the way into the backstop, so there's less impact on your fingers.

I don't think it's worth much even if you are a gamer. Unless you're at the absolute top of the game, the fraction of a second you save on your inputs isn't going to make a bit of difference (and even for those at the top of the game I have serious doubts that it would). But a lot of gamers are young and extremely gullible, so it's easy to sell them snake oil like this. This sort of thing is like the high end cables marketed to audiophiles, it is all hype and no substance.

How do these Hall Effect switch based keyboards prevent spurious clicks when a non-key -based magnetic field comes near?

Could I bring my neo magnets nearmy coworker and trigger keys?

This reminds me of that 3d printed magnetic ergo keyboard I see now and then, Svalboard I think?

idk, I don't have a 3d printer, but if I did, I'd probably give it a try.

Svalboard uses opto-interruptors, not hall effect sensors, though it does use magnets for return actuation instead of springs. The keys are either on or off, no floating point value like you get with hall effect so some of the features described in the article won't work.

Source: currently working on an open source hall effect sensor keyboard similar to svalboard.

Are there are that are compatible magnetic switches that one could use as a drop in replacement?

Unlikely, at least in the sense being discussed here.

A Hall effect sensor works by running a constant current in one direction while measuring the potential difference in a different axis. The keyboard’s PCB needs to be able to register a range of values, not simply binary on-off. Regular keyboards aren’t equipped to do that.

Typically in an HE keyboard, the sensors are mounted to the PCB. The “switch” itself is just a neodymium magnet at the end of a POM stem, in a polycarbonate housing with a spring.

There are other kinds of magnetic switch that have historically been used in keyboards – e.g. Fujitsu used reed switches in the 70s – and in theory you could probably build them into a Cherry MX-compatible package. But they wouldn’t provide many of the benefits of HE keyboards, besides smoothness and reliability, and I’m not aware of anyone doing it.

Well then I really don't get the excitement unless the entire ecosystem shifts. That means abandoning all the existing PCBs and cases. So unless you are rocking a vanilla 104 key and willing to buy a completely new keyboard, you aren't gonna buy in.

It’s 100% a niche interest, they’re not going to become the mainstream option.

But it’s a niche (competitive gamers and mechanical keyboard enthusiasts) with deep pockets, to whom “buying a new keyboard” is basically no barrier at all.

Any review with referral links is not worth the electrons used to show it on your screen.

I hope the volume scroll could be used as mouse scroll.

I currently run a Keychron K15 Pro and can easily remap my volume scroll as a mouse scroll (U/D or L/R or any combo). I can even have it on a different layer so it's volume control most of the time. In fact, I use the knob to control keyboard LED brightness on a secondary layer.

Love the promotion of cheating features in gaming devices! /sarcasm

I play single-player games from time-to-time and avoid multiplayer games as much as possible.

Just out of curiosity, is there some vetting process for keyboards that qualifies them as "not cheating"? Any hardware advances in input/output devices could be considered an unfair advantage, right? If my keyboard is a simple, non-smart one with significantly lower latency than your keyboard, does that mean I'm cheating? At some point you have to draw a line and say 'this is acceptable' and 'that is not', who draws the line? Does the line move? When does it move?

Cheating is going outside the defined rules of a game. If a specific game calls out that macros of any kind are forbidden, then great, that means some of the features of modern keyboards are cheating. Now, how do you police that? Pro-level competitive players are likely to be so fast and coordinated as to be close to indistinguishable from a well configured macro. Really, if you want to have limits on input devices, you need to codify that into the game, not say any advances in keyboard design are cheating. If using a macro lets a player be better than everyone else, limit the input capability to the level that is considered fair and don't worry about what keyboard someone is using. Otherwise, it's like complaining about someone using expensive high-refresh-rate gear and calling them a cheater.

> Pro-level competitive players are likely to be so fast and coordinated as to be close to indistinguishable from a well configured macro.

If only configuration includes randomness, is aware of body mechanics like difference between pressing same button strings with different fingers and so on and so forth.

> Really, if you want to have limits on input devices, you need to codify that into the game, not say any advances in keyboard design are cheating.

Smart Tap has been banned by Valve in CS2 precisely because the input processing has codified certain behavior since grandgrandfather of the engine and that code is being bypassed by software that emulates inputs.

If you want software to play the games for you then go for it, but it will be different games. That's why tool-assisted speedruns/superplay have their own place.

If you can't be detected then it can't be illegal. That makes the discussion of whether or not it's cheating immaterial.

What you're describing in your second paragraph is how good anticheat works. It is inevitable and unfortunate (from the perspective of GP) that it must be tuned to near-olympic performance as the cap (or you risk punishing people who are just good, which is a really bad idea).

edit: Of course, once you go down this rabbithole you start realising that olympic level performance is a freak accident of genetics, which is like having your own little biological "cheat". It makes you categorically better than other people at specific things. We return to the statement that figuring out whether that's cheating is immaterial. To my mind it's also a waste of time.

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