Ask HN: Would you recommend a framework laptop? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Would you recommend a framework laptop?

66 pointsramon156100 comments

It's that time of my life where I need to find a good work laptop. With the prices that laptops go for I'd rather not impulse buy and (maybe) regret my decision.

My last purchase was a Vivobook S(15?), and even with the discount I regret it to this day. It didn't even run Windows 10, and I had no time to look for another one as my uni courses already started. 700 euros for a raspberry-grade CPU that sucked the battery dry in less than an hour.

The DIY option from Framework seems very intriguing. The customizing part seems rather cheap (I could get extra accessories in case I change my mind for ~10 euros per piece).

My question is if anyone has experience with them and would recommend them, as I want to avoid another flop.

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I have a 12th Gen Intel Framework from work. I cannot recommend Framework as a brand.

Yes, they are repairable. That is where the list of Pros ends for me. Perhaps the only unique selling point is being able to upgrade the motherboard later, but...

The screen, keyboard, touchpad, and IO are all inferior to a ThinkPad.

You can only ever have 4 ports, which is considerably less than your average PC laptop of similar dimensions and weight will have.

ThinkPads and other corporate-tier machines are dirt cheap used after 3-4 years, and finding spare parts for them is usually a non-issue as long as you don't mind eBay. Lenovo will happily sell you parts for a few years after the laptop is released, although availability and pricing are not great.

Framework had a partnership to only sell Western Digital SSDs when I ordered mine, and it later came to light that WD had serious firmware issues with these models resulting in sudden data loss. [1]

Additionally, the 12th Gen model has received ONE firmware update in over a year since release. [2] While Framework have committed to delivering more frequent firmware updates, they don't have a good track record there. No LVFS support either, so you have to burn a USB stick to update.

Prior to the firmware update, I've had the laptop completely discharge the battery while powered off, refuse to power up until being connected to a charger for ~15 minutes, and then display a large error saying the screen and battery were not connected (they were).

Even after the firmware update, I still have issues with phantom battery drain when the laptop is completely powered off.

[1] https://community.frame.work/t/tracking-wd-black-sn850-sudde...

[2] https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios...

I have the exact opposite experience of this person. My 12th gen framework had been great. I've replaced the keyboard after spilling water on it, the hinges, and they even replaced my power adapter because the right angle USB was flaky. Repairs have been a breeze... I had ThinkPads for over 20 years, probably 7 of them. Their era is over, sorry but the last good ThinkPad was the 220. Fwiw, I tried to buy a ThinkPad before my framework, their site said it was available in two weeks. Three months later, after no reply, my order was canceled due to some US law that automatically triggers if you cannot deliver in a reasonable time frame. Got the framework in three days. Wish I got the AMD one, but whatever I can upgrade later.

Totally agree on older Lenovos. The last truly great laptop I owned was a Lenovo T530. It felt like it was built out of recycled Soviet era tanks, was completely modular, swapped out the CD ROM and replaced it with another hard drive, upgrading ram was a breeze, etc.

It was a bit on the chunkier side, but that thing hummed on for a decade of constant usage with not a single problem.

Yeah I’d vote thinkpad. They’re tanks and have a ton of support. I do think though that the framework line will get better with time.

I love mine and have had it for a few years now and upgraded it's motherboard from 11th gen to 12th gen i7, and successfully easily replaced the keyboard after a coffee spill, upgraded the battery to a new slightly higher capacity one when the original battery puffed up.

And this is all true. I love mine but frankly I have to admit I make excuses for it. It's almost really good. It has a lot of really good qualities, and lot of bad qualities that erase the good.

That 11th gen motherboard I replaced? I bought their official extwrnal case, (and some ram and a wifi card with antennas from a local microcenter to make it functional) to make it into a stand alone computer, even though I have essentially no use for it. Well it's a good thing I have no use for it because a bios update bricked it.

They don't put out enough updates to actually fix problems and so problems just remain for the entire life of the thing, and the few updates they have put out are complete and utter dumpster fires that break in a dozen different ways.

That battery I replaced? It was only about 2 1/2 years old. Why did a brand new battery go all explody in only 2 1/2 years? I have 10 even 15 year old laptops with pouch cells inside that never puffed up. Maybe longer even. They no longer hold a charge but they never puffed up.

My screen never looked 100% good. It has uneven lighting and uneven color, and is overall a bit pink. I have tried to correct the pink with color profiles in X but never got it to look like the neighboring external monitors. But a profile can't fix uneven color or uneven lighting anyway. Luckily I just don't care that much since I use larger better external monitors for most things and I don't do any art work. But that is really a ridiculous thing to have to just accept when most other brands just have good looking screens.

Battery life is garbage. Do every possible trick you can in either linux or windows, get 4 hours.

Why do I even say I love it?

I don't know. As far as I can tell, I should not say that. I love the idea. I love the sales pitch.

The sales pitch is repairability right?

My daily driver before the Framework was a X1Carbon 5th gen. About a year after I got the Framework I decided to refurbish the thinkpad because it was still awesome. I got a new battery, cpu cooler, and usb port all pretty easily (though frim ebay and aliexpress not from Lenovo), and they were all easy to install. The machine came apart all with screws just like The Framework. The Framework just makes it official with help and documents, but actually I've never even looked at a single one of those qr code instruction links. I'm sure they're nice, and I'd preferr if Lenovo did the same thing, but in fact I don't actually need instructions for things that are screwed together and don't have obtuse hidden land mines where something will be destroyed by doing the obvious thing.

The lenovo repair was essentially exactly as easy even though it was totally unsupported by lenovo themselves.

But that X1 Carbon is 50x better to use. Way tougher. Screen is even. Keyboard is way better. Actual mouse buttons (something I personally value highly, I hate huge touch pads with no buttons like Apple and Framework has).

I don't know if a current X1 Carbon is as easy to work on as one as old as 5th gen, so this comparison may no longer be valid.

We use about 50 frameworks in our company. They are solid, and I would recommend them, assuming you dont want a MacBook. IMO they are the best laptops for engineers who want to use Windows or Linux. In fact, I find them to be the least repulsive Windows laptop. The keyboard in particular is very satisfying to use.

The AMD ones are fast and have good battery efficiency, but unfortunately we've measured higher failure rates on AMD mainboards and matte displays compared to the Intel frameworks. That said, I'd still recommend the AMD frameworks. Haven't tried the latest Intel Core Ultra Series yet. Another downside on the AMD laptops is the 4 USB ports aren't equal - 2 are USB4 and 3 can drive a display, and some use up higher power. On Intel, all 4 ports are TB4/USB4 and function the same.

Main advantage of framework is we end up doing more frequent upgrades that cost us less, since we just need to replace mainboard or RAM - most engineers in our company get upgraded yearly, and we recycle the older mainboards into desktops (by putting them into a 3D-printed chassis) for non-tech shift workers. Also if parts break out of warranty - displays, keyboards, etc, cheap enough to fix that it doesnt bother us.

Main complaint I have is with warranty replacements - they really make you jump through a lot of hoops (they ask for a lot of photos/videos multiple times which involves opening up the chassis multiple times) before they accept fault and ship a replacement. Basically they're getting you to do the debugging for them so they can send a replacement for just the affected part, instead of you needing to ship out the entire laptop to get it repaired. On the plus side, you dont need to ship the entire laptop to them if something small is busted.

I moved from an older ThinkPad to the first generation Framework. While the idea of the repairability, expansion cards etc sounded great, it simply just ran far too hot and the battery life sucked. I ended up going 180 to the other end and buying a reduced 14 inch MacBook Pro (base model) which has been the best computer I've ever owned, macOS being awful aside. It's what a laptop should be like, not worrying about chargers, it not cooking your lap, just overall a very enjoyable machine

11gen (i.e. first generation) Framework did had that issues, but that was mostly a issue of the 11gen Intel CPU being used.

It's not really much of an issue anymore with newer CPUs.

Through you won't beat M2+ Macs when it comes to battery life.

My work laptop is a 13th gen ThinkPad and it also gets extremely hot and the battery sucks. Although the keyboard is much better and it’s got an Ethernet port which is a godsend

Yes. Unequivocally.

Had my 13 for a couple of years now, Debian/XFCE.

I've owned and only owned a 13 laptop for about ten years now.

I can't imagine buying a laptop from a major vendor (Samsung, Sony, Asus, etc). There are some smaller vendors, but they don't sell what I want in terms of a spec, and what FW offers, both in terms of kit (the spec I want) and repairability / honesty / lack of stuff being pushed on you / etc, I can't think of anyone else I could buy from.

Note that being able to self-repair is a very good thing. One of the keys died, early last year. I ordered a new keyboard, it arrived, I spent an afternoon swapping them over. Took a couple of hours. Compare that to posting the laptop off for a warranty repair - and that's if the vendor gets the repair right. I remember once having Sony make a repair, and the messed it up, broke the Windows install (which I had at the time), and it only went down-hill from there.

(In the end Sony support wanted to bill me 250 EUR to fit a new spinning-disk HD, to replace the 700 EUR Intel X-25 SSD I had bought and fitted, so they could have in place on the laptop a vanilla install of Windows, to "fix" how they had broken my fully-installed and configured for development Windows, where they had in fact swapped out the motherboard (underneath an installed Windows!) to replace a fan.)

Being able to buy parts and install yourself, if you can do it, is a billion light years better than relying on large company customer support.

One or two other notes;

1. Being able to swap the ports around, and change what's in each port, is something once you've had it, you can't go back.

2. The lappy runs hot out of the box; you have to configure thermal management yourself, in Linux. Mine runs at about 70C tops now (instead of going to 100C and staying there).

3. Sleep mode doesn't work properly, in that there's plenty of power drain. I've not updated the BIOS since I purchased - I have a vague thought this might have been fixed.

4. Battery life out of the box is not comparable to big-brand laptops, but I sat down, sorted out power management, and on Linux, I get more than 10 hours out of a battery at 80% (the max charge I have configured on mine, to extend battery life).

Whats the logic behind extending battery life when you paid a premium for a laptop with an easily replaceable and reasonably priced battery? Surely the extra time of uae over years is worth more than the replacement cost?

Well, I very rarely take the laptop away from my desk.

If I knew I was going on a long trip, I would put the charge up to 100%.

When I do go on a long trip, then there's benefit in conserving battery life, because the charge I'll take with me will be substantially higher.

A couple of notes on the FW13 vs FW16 difference. 1. agree

2. My fw16 actually makes my legs feel cold when I put it on my lap so I'm gonna say they fixed this

3. Haven't had it long enough to know much about the drain but wanted to add that suspend and hibernate both actually work for me which is a bit of a novelty and I've had a variety of linux laptops over the last 20 years[1].

4. This may be a FW13 vs 16 thing or maybe just because mine is new but it unscientifically seems ok so far. Probably not quite as good as my M4 mac laptop I'm migrating from but on the other hand everything actually works on this vs a bunch of things not being able to use the GPU acceleration on the mac (eg pytorch) so I'll take this one.

Just to double down on the support thing. It's really great to work with a company that acknowledges linux and supports it as a first-class offering[2]. I've worked with companies (eg Dell) who at one point would sell you a laptop preinstalled with Linux and then if you had any problems with the hardware itself treat it as though Linux was the problem and you were some kind of highly suspect individual for not running Windows.

[1] In fact this is the first linux laptop I've ever had where suspend/resume and hibernate/resume and suspend-the-hibernate all pretty much just work and there aren't some weird things where hibernation doesn't work at all or after resuming from hibernation the wifi/sound/some random other thing doesn't work. I had a linux laptop once where the keyboard would accept my luks password on resume from hibernate and then bafflingly disable itself as part of the resume process which I don't even know where to start.

[2] eg https://community.frame.work/t/status-of-official-linux-dist... they actually have a real linux support lead and will give you actual support on linux although you'll have to lean on the community more if you're not using a supported distro

Can you please elaborate a bit more about your issues with PyTorch on M4 mac. I read PyTorch has some support for Mac GPU with MPS backend, but not sure how extensive it is. I am looking for a new machine, and use of PyTorch and LLM inference are one of the main uses. Sorry for being a bit off-topic from the thread. Thanks.

I couldn't get pytorch to use the mac GPU at all. I didn't spend ages on it - like about a day. In general I find the build environment on mac really annoying compared to say Linux so it may be that with more patience it could be done. IT was also on my work computer and setting up Xcode command line tools on my work mac is super annoying for whatever dumb reason, but basically getting any kind of prebuilt python version (like say the ones that ship with rye) to talk to your Xcode if it's not in the same path as the one that built the python version is annoying, so then you're looking at building the whole of python which is not that hard but (when I tried it) meant it broke the next time Xcode upgraded. I tried symlinks to the sdk etc but that was no bueno for reasons I don't quite remember. And then even having done that and patched pytorch it didn't actually run GPU accelerated.

So bottom line is it might be possible to make it work but in my brief attempt I couldn't get it to work.

If you're at all linux-capable I would say it's hands down a better dev experience in every way (and that's coming from someone who's used macs for years and years in both a professional and private capacity).

I mostly loved mine... While it lasted. I owned a 12th gen, and it ran really well. The stories about running hot, draining battery while sleeping and the lack of firmware updates are all true. I could live with that. I live in Argentina, and had to travel to SF for work. I ordered the tougher hinges in advance (the ones that came were very flimsy, but they fixed that in newer models). I changed the hinges, and it was a breeze, so they delivered there. The thing is.. the laptop never booted up again! I called support, and they instructed me several things to try bring it back to life. Nothing worked. Last message was: you're out of warranty, sorry. Which I'm ok with. But then it got me thinking about repairability. I'm by no means a hardware expert. For sure I messed up when changing the hinges. But still, the whole situation just fell awful, and the promise if repairability just stopped selling for me. I still want framework to exist. I love their mission. But I needed to work, so I ran to an apple store and bought a MBP. After 20 years of using Linux, it breaks my heart a little bit, but the hardware is unbeatable. I'm kind of hating macos tbh, but I can live with it. And who knows, Asahi might get good enough at some point...

I use a Framework. I would advise looking up the parts you select prior to ordering. I didn't, and I accidentally selected an SSD that has known firmware issues (it unmounts itself randomly while in use). No fixes for this issue in 2 years has me skeptical of buying again, but I'm otherwise pretty happy with the device.

That's terrible, but note that this sort of thing seems to happen with e.g. Apple devices too:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5486533

External drives disconnecting themselves isn't an unknown issue. It's a bit different when it is your boot drive.

Maybe I should reconfigure my OS to run out of RAM.

You're probably joking, but OSes like damn small Linux, knoppix, and puppy Linux can be configured to boot to ram. They're often used as a rescue os

I'm not joking. I used to be an Alpine user, but I ran it in disk mode. Any OS can probably be made to boot to RAM. You just need to get the initramfs to extract a rootfs image to RAM (tmpfs), and set that filesystem as root before handing off to init. What makes Puppy special is the stuff it does to persist changes.

> No fixes for this issue in 2 years [..]

I'm not sure how framework is supposed to fix a SSD firmware issue if the vendor doesn't fix that.

Also out of interest which SSD was it?

Preventing the issue from ocurring by not selling a known incompatible configuration is the approach I'd take personally. It's the combination of the 512GB WD Black and the i5.

I was already considering buying the SSD and RAM myself, so that's good to know.

This sounds like a similar issue I've had with my own computer. I assumed the problem was that the board is form 4th gen intel, DDR3 RAM, and it definitely doesn't support an EVO 970 since it's from ~2014. I had to put the bootloader on another drive to avoid this. Not a very pretty solution, but it still works!

I like it overall but I have an issue where the battery drains crazy fast while sleeping. So I have it set to deep sleep, but that means it takes more than 15 seconds to wake up.

This seemed like the perfect opportunity to get a new mainboard, but the new mainboards don't support my RAM... Which I went all out getting 64GB of. Don't want to throw that out, and don't want to buy another 64GB.. So now upgrading what should be just one component means almost buying an entirely new machine.

What main board do you have the issue with? Is it a 13 or 16?

13, first generation.

I've been loving my framework 16 so far. I am using it for linux and all the hardware works and in general they've been great to deal with. I went with the DIY option and had some teething problems[1] and both the community on the framework forums and framework's support were really helpful.

[1] When they sent the original to me one of the ram slots was broken so if you put any ram in there the device wouldn't boot. After a bit of diagnosis-by-email they replaced the main board.

I really like mine. My keyboard's keys have started to stick a bit, after two years, but I like that I can get a new keyboard for cheap (or I can just open it up and fix it). If I need more RAM or disk, I can just install some. I'll probably upgrade my mainboard soon, and I love how I can just upgrade that and keep all the other components that are working great (screen, chassis, mouse, camera, etc etc).

Overall, I'd buy one again, though this time with an AMD CPU, not Intel.

I have an AMD Framework 13 and I cannot recommend it enough. IMO there's no other laptop worth considering unless you specifically need a Mac. They fully support Ubuntu, have excellent configuration options, and are powerful enough to run small local LLMs well (Qwen 2.4 14B runs about 6 tk/s and Llama 3.2 3B at about 12 tk/s on the iGPU via Vulkan).

This laptop has been everything I wanted it to be and I look forward to upgrading it for many years to come.

I just got the AMD FW13 a few months ago, and I've enjoyed it very much as well.

It's very much powerful enough for casual Rust programming, and it looks and feels great.

How are you using the GPU on the AMD 13? Is it GPT4All with Vulkan or something?

I have struggled to get the GPU detected/used.

I use https://jan.ai/, which supports GPU acceleration via Vulkan.

I have a Framework 13 with an i7-1260p from work. Overall it is a solid laptop, I did not run into any major problems with it. My personal choice is still likely a ThinkPad due to my long, good history with them. I won't give a strong recommendation for either as I am not current on the state of the art.

My major complaint is the heat and noise it creates when in a Google Meet (in Firefox though) and that I can not rely on the standby mode not draining the battery when I need the laptop. I also have problems with docked operation (TB4 dock), but I think these are likely Linux problems, so I won't hold it against the hardware.

I like the idea and philosophy of Frameworks being easy to service/disassemble and can attest to that fact. The exchangeable ports are great for in-office work (keep an HDMI for the meeting room, an USB-A port for your colleague's thumb drive in there), but for my work from home they are essentially useless. I just keep 2x USB-C and 2x USB-A, usually only one USB-C is used for the dock connector. Build quality and overall look and feel are decent as well, but of course this is personal preference.

I have a long history with ThinkPads and never ran into problems with them. I know that some of the laptops from the same batch as my most recent one have swollen batteries by now, but they could be swapped out, acceptable after about 5 years of daily use. If I had to chose a personal laptop now, I would very likely check in on Thinkpads again, I liked the T440p and T480 series. I also have a Legion model that is holding up fine. The Framework 16 looks interesting, so I would need to check that out as well.

P.S. I know there are tweaks and fixes for most of the problems above, some I have applied, some I haven't. I am ok with the current state.

> docked operation (TB4 dock)

maybe Linux but could also be specific to the Dock, many docks are not tested against standards but just Windows and/or Macs and sometimes just one of them, too.

> I have a long history with ThinkPads and never ran into problems with them.

I have a long history with them too, but I did ran into problems in more recent (T440, T480s) models. E.g. their USB-C charging ports are _very_ prone to breaking when there are frequent slight amounts of up/down force and there are only two and you need one working for charging to work. I have "bricked" one laptop this way and the only way to repair it is to go to a repair shop which can solder replacement ports on it... Not an issue I ran into with the framework the USB-C ports didn't break due to wear (yet) and even if they did they are trivial to replace (as you just replace the expansion card they are on).

I have a 13" one for 2 years and a 16" for close to 6 months. I love them both and I will likely only upgrade these and never by a complete new laptop. The 13 is amazing for the go, lightweight and comfortable. The 16 is great for me for general use, because I don't work at a table, so the larger screen makes a big difference. I recommend the AMD one, that performs better for me(my 13 is Intel). I have 2 articles about them on my blog if you are curious:

https://greg.molnar.io/blog/framework-laptop/

https://greg.molnar.io/blog/framework-16-first-impression/

And if you have any specific questions, I am happy to answer.

How do the screens between the 13" and 16" compare in quality / brightness etc?

Great question. To be honest, I like them both, but the 16" has less reflection so if that's important for you, go with that. I think there is an even better screen option now than the one I have. But I don't think I will upgrade to that since I am happy with the ones I currently have.

Thanks - I have the 16" and love the screen but was wondering if I get the 13" for staff/family would it be the same quality.

I can’t speak for framework… but for some wider context:

I have a work supplied M1 Mac book pro. An outstanding machine.

I have an older intel Mac that’s still running well, but starting to struggle.

I bought a dirt cheap Thinkpad t495 about 6 months ago, it’s dual booted W11 and Ubuntu and while it’s not a superstar performance wise it’s a very good machine and well worth the ~£200 I’ve spent on it. I did replace the trackpad with an X1 carbon one and also replaced the keyboard for a backlit one, I also increased the NVME storage and maxed out the ram (about an extra £150 in total). There are not many machines you can do these types of upgrades to so I’m quite please with it.

I would suggest a thinkpad if you can find the right model you can upgrade.

Noted. From what I've gathered from these comments is that Framework is a solid choice if you have the extra bucks and are willing to support RTR.

I'll opt for a good Thinkpad for now, and I'll have my eye on Framework until they mature a bit more. Thanks for the info!

I have a first-gen Framework with i5-1135G7. Using it right now.

Pros

  - Keyboard and trackpad are nice IMO.
  - The display is 3:2 and overall decent, but see below.
  - Fully supported on Ubuntu, including the fingerprint reader.
  - I have a USB-A and USB-C on each side, which is exactly what I want.
  - Upgrades are available (but see below)
  - Resale value is surprisingly high[1]

Cons

  - Fans are annoyingly loud when they spin up, which they do when e.g. playing Factorio.
  - The 2.2K display requires non-integer scaling; 3k @ 2x scaling is much crisper.
  - Plastic cases are common on ~$700 budget laptops not >$1k ones, cheapening the laptop.
  - Sleep tends to drain the battery, but I re-configured my laptop to use hibernate anyway.

The first two points have been addressed: I hear the newer Frameworks are much quieter, and there's a 2.8K display option now.

Overall, when I just want to surf the web, I prefer my old laptop, a Huawei Matebook with 8th Intel, mostly because it has a nicer screen (3k 3:2) but partially because the sleeker metal chassis is nicer. When I need portable performance, I pull out the Framework, but the fans get noisy when it's going full blast.

I'd like to upgrade it to an AMD 7000 motherboard + 3k screen, but it comes out to $735:

  $420 7640U Mainboard
  $ 45 2x8GB DDR5-5600 SODIMM
  $270 2.8K Display

For ~$1058, I could buy an entire new 7640U w/ 2.8K display + RAM. Comparable laptops are often significantly less than $1k on sale. With 11th gen Frameworks selling on EBay for >$500(!), from a pure cost-optimization point-of-view upgrading is questionable. The fact that the laptop retains its value undermines one of the main reasons I got the Framework!

[1] https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m...

My suggestion: get a used thinkpad that fits your budget. You'll be amazed.

Specifically which model? People at work were stretching their old HPs to avoid getting a Lenovo replacement that were just failing in the hands of their coworkers in all sorts of ways. Genuinely curious to understand the mismatch between experience and recommandations I see everywhere.

W541 was one of the last models with upgradable cpu.

I don't think you understand the purpose of a Framework laptop.

I guess it's important to consider your needs and values, but I wouldn't mind a second handed product until I really know that I want a Framework laptop.

I'll definitely add Thinkpad as my options. One of the worries I have is that you're completely reliant on a company to provide support. They can drop the ball anytime (not that I expect them to, but it's good to be aware of it).

Used ThinkPads are still tanks. My personal laptop is a used one, a 2017 model, and it still runs well, just slightly below the newer models which I use for my work. If you're going to be doing some heavy coding, you'll still be fine.

Wouldn't recommend Dells or Frameworks. You don't need an Apple for college work either.

Could you recommend a thinkpad model you feel is built like a tank?

I bought a used t540p 5 years ago and it's been the crappiest laptop I've ever used. Terrible display with about 15deg of visibility. Flimsy plastic parts that broke in multiple places during replacements. Display randomly got damaged while in my bag, keys constantly falling off, even after fully replacing the kb when keys just stopped functioning, worst trackpad ever, RAM just started failing.

Honestly the framework is practically macbook-quality in comparison to a used thinkpad IME but maybe I'm looking at the wrong series or era?

I use a 470s for my personal model and a p16 for work. Perhaps it depends on the previous owner, but yours seems like a one-off situation. In my case, I found a local reseller who sold mostly ex-corporate laptops that were used for a couple of years tops, and the ones they sold were in mint condition. The p16s we buy are brand new though.

I second this recommendation. Framework laptops are great but they are not without issue (firmware updates have been lagging, battery life is fine but not great). They are a great longlasting purchase that you can keep upgrading. But they are not without quirks.

But to me it looks like you just want a laptop that does it's job reliably and have a limmited budget.

I have one - absolutely love it. Was Intel 12th gen, which was merely quite good (all great except battery life really) but upgrading to the AMD has been fantastic - much better battery and notable perf jump overall, and it was eye opening and awesome to just jump to the next gen of the product only replacing the changed parts so easily.

I also set up the leftover old Intel mainboard as a standalone server, which actually works remarkably well (peak power usage isn't great, but the idle is honestly pretty reasonable, so for a homelab it's perfect) and it's basically a free server.

I've been using mine (13-inch) for a couple years now. Like others, I would've got the AMD mainboard but it wasn't out yet, so I settled for the Intel 12th gen.

When I first got it, the touchpad didn't click properly. There was a bit of back and forth with support (they wanted to see video of the issue) but all in all, they shipped the replacement part within 3 days of the report. That's acceptable, in my book.

Then there was a very strange issue where the machine would randomly shut down while sleeping, seemingly related to using Windows 11 with the 12th gen CPU. Turns out you need to disable 'connectivity in modern standby' if this is the case:

    POWERCFG -SETDCVALUEINDEX SCHEME_CURRENT SUB_NONE CONNECTIVITYINSTANDBY no 0
    POWERCFG -SETACVALUEINDEX SCHEME_CURRENT SUB_NONE CONNECTIVITYINSTANDBY 0

Anyway, aside from that, I've had no issues.

The main benefit in my view is that you don't need to worry about 'timing', in terms of generational improvements in the hardware. In my case, I didn't get the AMD CPU I wanted, but when I decide to upgrade, I can do so for a pretty reasonable price: https://frame.work/gb/en/products/mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-70... . Likewise, if any component breaks, I can be confident it's not going to cost me the whole machine, and I can do all the servicing myself.

This would be inconceivable in any other laptop, especially one of this form factor.

Yes, I would recommend it. I have a DIY edition framework 13 with the AMD 640U) and new 2.8K display. It has been working perfectly for me with archlinux installed (even though it's not one of the recommended distros). Battery life has been decent when using power profiles daemon, but nowhere near as good as an ARM macbook. I would definitely suggest the upgraded display, as this also lands you the larger battery. The keyboard is great, trackpad is pretty good and no issues with wifi, nor bluetooth. A brighter display with wide colour gamut and higher accuracy would have been nice, but the 2.8k display is not bad at all.

That being said, it's definitely more expensive than much of the competition is for similar specs. I don't mind paying a little extra to vote with my wallet and the build quality has exceeded my expectations. I'm gambling on them supporting this chassis design for a few more generations, so I can buy the very last motherboard upgrade that they release and extend the life of this machine a little further.

Imo, it depends on the OS.

I know someone is going to say otherwise but I tried (iirc) Debian, Ubuntu, and variants of Fedora (vanilla and Silverblue). None performed as well as Windows. But I only cared about power/heat/noise/thermals. I ended up swapping for MBP because I didn't like WSL but it was very good as a Windows machine.

And ofc, you are getting upgrade path, can replace things when it breaks, etc. Support on their forums is also very good, if you are able to try to fix things then a forum is better than regular support which will just tell you to send it in and wait weeks/months.

At slightly above price of FW, you can consider MBP (MBA didn't work for me either, same issue with thermals).

In my experience, the main things that let FW down are the things it can't control: OS and CPU. And I expect both to improve over time.

I've a Framework 13, which I got at launch (11th Gen), and have upgraded that to 12th Gen motherboard as well as swapped the hinges and backplate for a better less wobbly display. Probably the best laptop I've ever had, but it is pricey. I'm not sure theres much cost savings with upgrading vs buying whole new laptops every 18 months, but at least I'm not throwing out material. I have the old 11th Gen motherboard in a coolermaster case with spare RAM/SSD waiting for me to get time to make it into a media server.

I then got the Framework 16 with GPU module. Upgraded the camera but no CPU/GPU upgrades thus far. Use Keyboard and Numpad for the input panel options, but I've the LED panels to swap out when showing it off. The GPU is beefy enough that I can avoid also having to pack my steam deck, but you do need the better power supply, it drains battery even when plugged in otherwise. 165Hz display is great, but I do miss the 3:2 ratio screen. My only real issue is battery life in general. You do need to get it plugged in often.

I think in hindsight I prefer the FW13, it's just so much easier to travel with and the AMD APU probably has enough GPU power to play the limited games I do so I may move back, get the new 2.8k display and AMD motherboard. I much prefer the 3:2 display.

In both cases I got the DIY edition and found cheaper sources for RAM and SSD. I have had no issues with compatibility.

I intend to stick with framework longer term though. For me the benefits outweigh the cons, and its a more fun and personal ownership experience. Experience with support was reasonable, I did have an issue with the 12th Gen board where it wouldn't power on, but a few days of back and forth with email support got it revived and I avoided having to do an RMA.

The swappable ports are a very handy feature - as well as configuring it to what I think I'll need I can carry a bunch of spares easily. One trouble is that they also work on other laptops, so I find myself loaning e.g. the HDMI port to Macbook Air users. And I sometimes don't get them back. Oh well.

I also 3D printed out the cupholder attachement, which gets a few laughs. Not sure I'd use it for real though....

I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, if you want an utterly premium experience with the best OLED displays and battery life etc theres better, but I've had a lot of value from my two, and I seem to have convinced at least one local biz to swap to them because of the ability to fix them quickly when parts break.

Used a framework for the last years of my PhD and would very much recommend it! Now got a macbook from work and I have to say that I do prefer it but it also comes with a higher cost.. As I was no longer using my framework I turned it into my homeserver using this server kit: https://frame.work/be/en/products/framework-laptop-13-mainbo.... Any other laptop would have started gathering dust but my framework keeps being useful thanks to its modular design.

ThinkPad for a machine that will reasonably get things done.

MacBook if you want/need the Apple ecosystem and have the money.

Anything else if you have other constraints you care about (e.g. price), or are enthusiastic about something (e.g. modularity).

They still have big issues with keeping on top of firmware updates. They still haven't managed to ship a stable EFI update for the 12th Gen for example. This is even after main stream tech press getting on their case.

I have experimented with a Thinkpad T14s and Framework 13 AMD during the past year. Running Linux.

I think the Framework is a much more solid machine. The quality of the hardware feels higher to me and I like the screen ratio more. The keyboard feels even better than my Macbook Air M2's.

I would recommend it for Linux use at least. I don't know about Windows.

If something closer to the hardware quality of Macbooks came along, I'd switch immediately, but there doesn't seem to be such a thing. Of course, I don't have the resources to try everything out there.

>My last purchase was a Vivobook S(15?), and even with the discount I regret it to this day.

I have an ASUS Vivobook S14 with an Intel i7 12700H, so about 3 years old at this point. I love it, runs Windows 11 (and the games I play) just fine and the OLED screen it has is amazing.

Anyway, if you want a "safe" laptop so you can get stuff done? Just buy something with respectable hardware (Intel Core i5 or AMD Ryzen 5 or higher) from any of ASUS, Dell, or Lenovo. They're widely popular brands for a reason.

Or if you want a foolproof laptop, just get a Macbook.

Mine was specifically a S530FN with a quad core and a clock speed of 1.8ghz. I should've definitely done my homework. I partly blame my desperateness.

My dad also bought a Vivobook which runs windows 11 perfectly fine, so I would say I just had a bad edition.

I would like to make a note about the fan noise issue. I have a work laptop that is a Dell, with the same exact specs as my Framework. I ran Blender benchmark on each, and found that the Dell stayed quiet but took twice as long as the Framework. So I think the Dell has more throttling to keep it quiet, and the Framework reached boost clock more often due to the aggressive fan. So I don't think it has much to do with the design as much as the fan curves. It would be nice to be able to adjust these though...

I got the DIY AMD FW16 a few months ago, coming from a 10 y o ASUS. There was this issue where it froze up after running a couple days and the boot time was pretty abysmal (seemed to be a firmware thing, as it would stick at the BIOS stage, but I only did 1 firmware update), but the issue seems to have resolved itself (I just left it and continued using the ASUS). Haven't had any further hiccups, and otherwise it's been a great machine.

I can vouch for the 13. I got one and liked it enough to write about it [1] and prompt my brother to get one.

They're worthy, but if getting a 13 make sure to get an AMD mainboard and buy your RAM and storage seperate to shave down the cost.

[1]: https://vale.rocks/posts/a-year-with-the-framework-laptop-13

Super happy with my purchase. Convinced a co-worker to get one as well and he's happy. You aren't getting the build quality of a Macbook, but the benefits far outweigh the downsides in my opinion. Battery life depends on which CPU you get, but the best part is once the ARM-variants mature a bit more, you can swap in a new mainboard and reap the benefits of a more efficient system.

I was also worried about the build quality. The hinges on laptops consistently give up on me, but I saw the wide list of replacement parts they offer (with a shipping price that isn't hell).

> you can swap in a new mainboard

This is what I like to hear, the fact that replacing a part doesn't mean buying an entirely new laptop.

> You aren't getting the build quality of a Macbook

Some brave souls have been combining the internal beauty of Framework with the external build quality of Macbooks: https://community.frame.work/t/i-converted-a-macbook-into-a-...

After some searching I decided to opt for a Thinkpad. I can get a refurbished model (7530U + 16Gb ram + 256Gb SSD) for 425 euro, which is more than reasonable until I decide to switch to Framework.

Thanks for all your input, and I hope me and Framework cross paths again in the future! Keeping an on you.

I daily drive an AMD Framework 13 with Fedora. I do light software dev, writing, some gaming, and run a variety of local LLMs without pain. I'm happy with the machine and Framework's support, and I do like their vision of repairability/upgradability and I've taken advantage of that already. On the downside, it just clearly isn't as good of a machine for the cost compared to what you could get -- several aspects are just middle-of-the-road: the webcam, speakers and the battery life stand out for me as not great. The AMD chip is also new enough that I still run into glitches with kernel updates on occasion, and power efficiency was initially much worse but has been improving.

In the past, my jam has always been to buy used Thinkpads and run them into the ground. If my Framework got stolen today, I don't think buying another Framework would be a slam-dunk decision for me but I'd still consider it.

tl;dr: happy enough with the laptop and Framework support; hopeful that the dream of repairability/upgradeability pays off; but it does feel like a bit of a compromise on quality.

p.s. I'm quite sensitive to noise and really did not want a machine that ran its fan all the time; the AMD Framework 13 is pretty good for this unless gaming or under some other high load and then it's a rushing sound not a whine.

I've got myself a Framework 13 at launch and it has lasted well so far. Repairability isn't as big of a deal though. Chips have been good enough for a long time such that an upgrade will only ever be necessary once in maybe 10 years

Personally, I wouldn't recommend them. It's not really Framework's fault per-se but Intel's mobile platform is terrible these days and doesn't hold a candle to the Apple's M-series chips for perf / watt.

I recently went to a conference, and almost everyone had either a macbook or a framework. Reviews for both were excellent. If you want a windows laptop (and you can afford the price) then a framework is pretty safe bet I think.

That's good to know. I don't have a good reference since so far every company has provided a work laptop for me, and they were either a MacBook or a Dell.

I'm glad to hear that Framework is getting traction!

Im loving my FW16, the screen is surprisingly good, I have 2TB and 1TB M.2 drives that were originally planned for dual boot. Tried out Bluefin-dx distro and now thats all I run and are very happy with it.

I run AMD framework 16 and to break it down:

- performance - i've maxed out my config and there are no issues

- noise - it can get quite noisy in performance mode, while in energy saving it's silent

- battery life - it's much better compared to my 10yr old haswell thinkpad(even though the battery was replaced twice), almost lasts me through my day, though i haven't done any tweaking and i think i can get past 8hours with some adjustments

- screen - same as macbook pro m2, cannot tell a difference, just not HDR

- speakers - not as good as on macbook

- webcam - mediocre just like thinkpads

The only thing I don't like about my framework is the wakeup issue. It randomly wakes up in my backpack and it's infuriating that they have not released a fix for it.

Unlike people here recommending old thinkpads I am not gonna do that. They lack USB-C and it's becoming a pain in the ass for work not to have it.

I got mine at the end of 2021 and then used it till the mid-2023.

I know that it’s not a fair comparison, but I still compare it to macbooks because I’m a mac user for years.

Pros

- Linux support is amazing, basically you just install one of the popular distros and ‘it works’ (c). I used PopOS and was pretty happy. You also get all the Linux tools like eBPF out of the box, which is +1 compared to mac.

- Extensibility is a big deal. You can get 1 TB / 32 GB version for pennies compared to mac, where upgrades from the base are ridiculously expensive.

- Design and look is very neat.

- Keyboard is a classic one and also good.

Cons

- Battery life is really bad; same with cooling. At some point I started having more meetings at work and it gets extremely hot, noisy, and dies very quickly.

- Touchpad is just subpar to mac. Also chassis rigidity is meh. I know they improved the display cover design (switched to CNC), but I have the first revision.

- Display is 2K’ish. I don’t really understand, why they go with this resolution. Even their new display is around 2.5K. IMO, Linux works best either with 1080p/1K or 4K with x2 scaling (I prefer the latter) because fractional scaling is bad. I struggled a lot with external 4K monitor because it was nearly impossible to adjust all sizes so texts were good on both and especially when you disconnect and go portable. I know it’s Linux and you can DIY everything, but for me it was just too much of a headache.

I still fully support this company and wish them all the best, but since getting the MacBook Pro 14 with M2 (company’s, not personal) in the mid-2023 my Framework is waiting for two things: i) 4K display module; and ii) ARM main board. If they release these upgrades I will jump into Framework right away and give it another try.

So I recommend it if Pros are more important than Cons for you.

UPD: formatting and conclusion

Macbooks will last along time. Probably Thinkpads on the Windows/Linux Side.

My wife and I both got the original model from 2021, and we've been using them every day since then. Mine is a beefier DIY edition running Linux. My wife's is the cheapest pre-built edition running Windows.

Like you, our previous experience was with really cheap laptops, so I can't compare it to a MacBook or ThinkPad. But what I found is that for the specifications I wanted - 32 GB of memory and 1 TB of storage - a Framework was like half the price of a MacBook or ThinkPad at the time. Based on that, I've been very happy. My wife could have gotten her specifications - 8 GB of memory and 250 GB of storage - for less money elsewhere but she wanted something repairable, and Framework has delivered on that, so she's happy too.

I frequent the Framework forum so I'm aware of the known issues, but I just haven't experienced any issues, or they haven't bothered me. People have complained about the firmware updates, but I'm just impressed that I'm getting firmware updates at all, even three years later, either through LVFS or installers especially for Linux users. I did get the stiffer hinges last year, and it's nice that they made those available. Using the Framework installation and battery tuning guides for Linux, I have no complaints about battery life or drain during sleep / standby. We'll see if we can actually still upgrade these in a few more years; that will be a big test for Framework.

For someone who's not tech savvy at all, I'd recommend buying from Apple or Best Buy so that they have a place to go for support. But for the typical HN person? Yeah, I'd recommend Framework.

Well, I would never use a laptop, period. It's part of my work hygiene to leave work at my desk.

A laptop lets you leave your work at your desk and have entertainment on the go at the same time.

Framework 13 yes, Framework 16 no. Sadly, my experience with the 16 has been poor QA and several RMAs to still not having everything fixed. The 16 right now has a design flaw where the performance and thermals degrade for a lot of users, as the liquid metal interface used is problematic. Framework is in the process of switching away from it to Honeywell PTM, and users affected by performance degradation will get a free PTM kit and a detailed guide to switch, so that is good.

What particularly annoys me is tolerances. My machine seems to have some pretty awful machining / tolerances on it. The entire laptop rattles quite a lot when touched, and sometimes even when typing on it or using the keyboard. The main cause behind this rattle is that the holes for the expansion cards (modular ports) on the side seem to be cut slightly too large for the cards, causing them to "rattle" in, unless some shim is added, like a layer of tape in between the card and the slot to add some surface. The same exact cards fit great within the slots of another Framework Laptop (13) I tried personally, so it is almost certainly a bad tolerance on my chassis. It's a nitpick, but right off the bat, it degrades the "haptics and feel" of the €2000 laptop down to the territory of a €300 Chromebook. The laptop makes scary creaking noises way more often than I am comfortable with, especially when lifting it up and opening / closing the lid. RMA'd the laptop for one whole month to get this issue fixed and the noise level only marginally improved. Sometimes, when clicking on the touchpad, you get an added layer of reverb to your click, especially if you are resting your palm on the palm rest, but not all the time, it comes and goes (possibly because the mid plate warps in response with the heat fluctuations?). As I tried to investigate this issue, I also found that, over time, my laptop chassis has bent itself quite a lot from use, causing the two front corners to be lifted up and their feet not touching the table, ad the short side of the laptop is flexed and concave. It might have been there from the start though, a friend of mine has just received his brand-spanking-new unit that is plagued by the same issue. Not an amazing sign for the long-term structural integrity, especially if you note that even the display lid is thin enough that it flexes quite a bit. Also, all the various modules (touchpad and its spacers, keyboard and its spacers) will never be completely flat and they will have slightly different heights. Eg: the my keyboard module seems to bulge out a bit in the middle, rising beyond both spacers in the z axis. This is just a nitpick, but if you are expecting MacBook or Dell XPS level tolerances you will not find them here. Of course, I had to keep my rattling issues as the technical support straight up denied them from my videos and audio recordings and gave me the "it's normal that a modular laptop will not be perfectly silent"... yawn.

As for more practical stuff if you are willing to shrug these inaccuracies off: as stated by another user, there is a firmware bug where certain SSDs just disappear from your feet while you are booting from them. It happened with my SK Hynix P41 Platinum, but I have been fine on my WD_Black SN850x 2 TB drive, so I would advise going for exactly this SSD if you don't want to roll the lottery. Also, I have started getting a lot of weird GPU artifacts, display backlight flickering and unexpected lag spikes on recent kernels, that I had to work around by booting up with `amdgpu.dcdebugmask=0x410`. This seems to be more AMD's fault than Framework's, but do remember this because you will likely want to set this kernel parameter for the mean time until AMD fixes this regression. Or just use an older kernel for now. Aside from this amdgpu issue, Linux support is remarkable on this machine.

I have tried a Framework 13, and I found it a million times better laptop. The keyboard feels a lot more satisfying to use, the structural integrity seems better, especially as its chassis is not the flimsy magnesium alloy bottom cover that flexes so much on the 16.

Framework makes good laptops and the 13 is a great, refined product, but the 16 is way too early-adopter stage right now, and the fact that Framework is forced to keep making mass after-production fixes available for free to a large amount of affected users (first a free kit of pads to apply on the heat-sink to reduce the keyboard flex, then the liquid metal to Honeywell PTM transition kit), while it shows that the company is committed to not leaving you in the dark when a bad issue is discovered, it also shows that people who buy in on the first-generation Framework 16 now are buying more of a production prototype that is actively in the making rather than a finished product.

If you want to buy the 13, there are a few configurations I recommend. In any case, get the 2.8k display, it's much better, and it does not require fractional scaling on Linux. Get the RAM and SSD yourself to save money. SSD, get a SN850x or a SN770 to be safe, and as for the RAM, any SODIMM DDR5 5600 MT/s 2 matched modules kit will work, I have had no problems with Kingston Fury. As for the CPU, you have two options: the best performance (both CPU and graphical) is had in the AMD model, Ryzen 7 7840U board to be specific; while if you are looking for the best value (the better compromise between CPU, GPU and efficiency while saving some money), the Intel board with the Intel Core Ultra 5 processor currently seems to be a better value than the Ryzen 5 7640U, especially in the integrated graphics department.

I have a Framework 13 that I bought last year in November with the Ryzen 7840u processor.

Initially, my experience with it was good, Fedora Linux was working well and everything.

One day, after coming back home, I've noticed that the power button was completely stuck. Apparently, the device somehow it so hard that the input cover was bent so much... [1] The laptop was in a backpack with its own case, I wasn't expecting it to break so much quickly. Anyway, I opened the laptop to at least fix the power button, but then I have decided to contact support, since they might know better how to solve it. After turning it on without using the power button, I put the input cover back on and.. The screen BROKE. It was working just before doing it!

Support finally decided that they wouldn't replace any part of the device. In the end, I had to spend 400 euros in parts to fix everything because of that.

I also had shipping issues because of FedEx getting my address wrong (for THREE times), and things like uneven touchpad [2] and gaps between brand new input and bottom cover [3], I didn't report any of them because interacting with the support because it was just a waste of time with their repetitive template answers (and FedEx with their non-service).

Additionally, in the last months I have been having issues with the amdgpu driver (apparently, it sucks hard on newer APUs), making the desktop either start lagging so much or crashing so often (it goes back to the login screen) that it becomes unusable. Rebooting the devices fixes it for some hours, so no fix for now.

The laptop works much better with Windows, but I have bought it specially for the intent of using Linux, since they even advertised official support! otherwise, I would have bought something else.

In the end, all of these things became so unbearable that I have decided to replace the Framework with a MacBook Pro M4. I never wanted one, but the laptop market nowadays is so bad that you can't trust manufacturers that the Linux support will be good, and MacOS is the only alternative that works for me.

Regarding the Framework, I really want to like them, the concept behind repairability and modularity is awesome, but at least for now they are just an experimental company that you can't trust if you do real work. I hope others who bought one had a better experience than I did.

[1] https://files.catbox.moe/mt5p0p.jpg

[2] https://files.catbox.moe/ivh5dy.jpg

[3] https://files.catbox.moe/vcmehr.jpg

I'm happy with it (13" specific feedback, latest AMD gen, but I had the 11th gen Intel before).

But if I can recommend it is a bit of a mostly yes but not soley yes thing.

Some of the good parts:

- can be repaired (I have a tendency for private laptops sliding of my bed or couch when I read something one them before going to bed so sadly I kind need that)

- the casing is robust and as it's mostly metal instead of plastic will bend before instead splintering (which is somewhat repairable and/or means its still usable even after heavy drops from the desk on a corner, yes I'm embarrassed about what I did to that laptop over the recent years)

- being able to charge it from both sides is absolutely awesome and probably has become for me a major must have buying condition

- the 4 extension slots (13", more on the larger one) turned out to be enough for me, especially on my work desk I anyway have a KVM Switch+USB Hub combo wired into the desk

- the USB C ports are robust (more so then on some Think pads), through even if they break you can fix them by replacing the extension port

- the motherboard (13") and co are fine, BIOS (13") had been a bit wanky during early 11th gen days but now is just fine, some UEFI security fixes have been a bit slow but as long if you don't have some high security business use case it probably doesn't matter. Custom secure boot platform keys work perfectly fine (I use sbctl).

- cooling (13") is fine, through if the system runs hot due to it's metal casing you might feel the heat at the bottom center where some of the fan slots are. But there are no heat issues at the top, or sides (including sides at the bottom) so mostly a non issue. (had been a bit of an issue with 11th gen Intel)

- CPU isn't really framework specific nothing to say here, but it's best to collect some general information (e.g. amd has a tendency for slightly less reliable WLAN on Linux)

- some people complain about weak hinges, but they made them a bit stronger and provide even stronger ones as replacement part. IMHO it's a non issue for many people except if you do work often in an environment where there is a lot of shaking or carry it while shaking and while it's open and the screen position changing being an issue. It wasn't an issue a few time I had been using it on a train or bus but it also hadn't been very "shaky" train/bus raids.

- the angle of the lid is 180°, i.e. it can be opened until it's all flat on the desk. While this doesn't matter for many when using it it makes it harder to break the screen by overextending the lid in an accident

- keyboard is fine, (but I would love if they had ThinkPad style arrow keys & home end buttons, in the end I remapped (in Linux) F9/F10 to Home/End

- mousepad is fine, but I don't have high requirements there so maybe ignore that

- fingerpint reader is okay, but I have seen better (not sure if it's a software of hardware issue)

- you can upgrade it, but as most cost comes from the CPU+Motherboard+RAM and my last upgrade also involved going to a new generation of RAM you won't save much money. But at least all sticker on the lid stay around.

- installation is quite easy and some past gotacha about keyboard cable length have been fixed I have heard, love how it opens up to the top

- I love the screen ratio, but can't won't anything about the screen as I probably would go with the newest 4k screen if buying new.

- camera & mic have separate off buttons which is nice

- can't say much about the battery live I never ran into any issues but given how I use the laptop and how by now many trains have power ports I think I wouldn't run into any problems even with Laptops which for 2024 standards have mid-low battery life time. What is nice is that as far as I remember when the battery is full and connected to AC it bypasses the battery, so no unnecessary constant battery ware when using it long time in a dock or similar. While that should be the norm macs cheeped out and don't have that anymore.

so all in all I'm pretty happy

But the whole "it's repairable, and up-gradable part" isn't as big as it seems. I.e. like mentioned if you don't upgrade every generation the upgrade is likely not much cheaper then buying new (and why should you upgrade every generation). And while you can repair it for people which treat their laptop with care most damages will be either "very bad all broken" or "slightly cosmetic no repair needed", in a certain way for many users the most important part is that breaking you USB ports (of expansion cards) is trivially repairable, which in my experience is one of the main not trivially user repairable failure points of otherwise repairable Laptops (e.g. T series ThinkPads). I also heard someone playing with hardware dev messed up some wires and expected their motherboard to be fried, but only the USB-C expansion card was fried, so that can be clearly a plus, too. But as I currently don't do hardware dev and don't know what is in the USB-C expansion card I don't know if that was just luck.

> But the whole "it's repairable, and up-gradable part" isn't as big as it seems.

I think a lot of that comes into play as second hand machines. Except very few models once you buy a laptop second-hand, you're stuck with an older quickly to be obsolete model. Not so for Frameworks.

The framework is pretty expensive for what you get and there's so guarantee that it will work once put together.

A few years ago I bought a new PC by buying components. When I put it together it didn't work, I took it to a computer repair shop and then couldn't figure it out either. Not knowing which part was broken or if it was something I did wrong, I ended up throwing everything in the trash.

Since then I just pay the $200 for it to be assembled and get 5 year warranty. IMHO self-assembly makes no sense unless you're a youtuber earning money from making videos doing it.

I’ve been building my own computers for over 15 years now. The idea of throwing all of it in the trash because it didn’t work made me laugh out loud at how absurd it is. Many people successfully assemble their own computers all the time, while never sharing it on YT. These days it’s as easy as it’s ever been.

As for the repair shop, kind of sounds like they just didn’t want your business.

Thanks for "hnsplaining" my own experience to me. I had no way of testing which part was faulty, or if it was faulty in a way that caused other components to fail.

I said there was no point in doing it, not that it can't be done. With a top Elonesque mind such as yours you should probably know the difference. Tips fedora.

The point to do it is to save money.

You certainly have plenty of disposable income and lack of environmental care to just buy parts without checking compatibility and then just trash everything. Don't diss the entire field of custom PC building just because you got it wrong once.

Also as, machinestops said, you can get the Framework laptop prebuilt.

It's hard to believe that a computer repair shop couldn't figure out how to assemble a computer.

I’ve been custom building PCs since I was a child and I’m not the hawking of computers. It’s not nearly as hard as you making it out to be.

Next time I would suggest selling the parts to someone with more patience rather than "throwing everything in the trash".

The situation you described does suck, but I've built several machines, often from cheap used parts, and been lucky enough to never run into it. Most of the time self-assembly makes sense, you can't really "do it wrong" easily if you pick compatible parts and follow manuals. If it doesn't work getting used RAM stick or PSU for testing is usually cheap, if those don't fix it then it's probably either CPU or motherboard. Any computer repair shop should probably have those lying around anyway.

That's not what the Framework is.

It a computer you get in parts and if it doesn't turn on after you put it together your recourse is a long back and forth begging a company half-way around the world to diagnose the issue and send you replacements. Did I get it right?

No you didn't. You can get it prebuilt.

Maybe you should RTA. OP is talking about the DIY version.

Weird take. The assembly process was dead simple and impossible to screw up if you follow the clear instructions. There are threads on the forum for memory compatibility. Pretty sure they assemble and test every device (even diy ones) before they leave the factory.

A tip for next time - pcpartpicker has a compatibility matrix when choosing components to let you know if what youre doing will work once youve found what you like

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