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Comment by _lvbh | Hacker News Reader

> we are falling far behind in many areas, including cyber security

In terms of quantity and quality of talent, I don't think the western world would fall behind China, especially with their strict control of information. Most people there will have difficulty independently learning about cybersecurity.

The difference is that most talent is captured by the private sector with higher compensation or bounties. Meanwhile, China can very easily compel anyone they need into the government so the % utilization on outward attacks is probably higher.

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> Most people there will have difficulty independently learning about cybersecurity.

Speaking from my own limited anecdata, but since the 90s in order to use the internet in China you basically had to be somewhat proficient in "cybersecurity" just because of all the required hoops to jump through. There were definitely a lot of script kiddies, but the Chinese exploit scene (amateur and professional) has always been bustling. And just personally speaking, the most truly awe-inspiring and resourceful hackers I've ever known have been Russian, or Chinese. Like actual 10x engineers who think that walls put in place for other people don't exist for them.

Western society is criminalizing and repressing such culture, so China has already won because they fail at doing the same.

They are very clear about who is a valid target though. I think you’ll quickly find that those attacking domestic targets rapidly disappear.

Kinda works both ways. In many western countries you still go to jail for refusing to give private encryption keys

Or they convict you for money laundry because you developed a crypto phone they can't crack and don't have any legal means to destroy you. ( Dutch example, and yes - the guy payed taxes everything, they made him hang because of a single client of a client his client his client being involved with shady things. ) State-Spite, Repression and such is rising globally. The rule of law is gone.

Any state actor who puts in the effort can get pretty good, and some countries make a very specific effort in this area. North Korea is one. Imagine the brightest people in your state (say, population 26 million) were all nudged into one very specific talent funnel, with the goal of stealing money for the government.

China is different. Not quite as focused in terms of sheer government directive, but just think of the Chinese people you do know and extrapolate out the level of effort and talent. Being overconfident seems like a mistake.

> China can very easily compel anyone they need into the government

I have worked with people in Chinese tech companies and in Chinese tech ministries, and I don't think this statement is true, any more than in the US. In the US, there are talented techies who work for FAANG, startups, Palantir, NSA, etc etc. Similarly in China.

Compel is a euphemism for a "friendly" visit to your wife & children or elderly parents. The western equivalent is to lawyer someone to death. Don't be naive.

Source?

Every ordinary Chinese needs to self-learn some cybersecurity to do daily things, like to watch YouTube, or to send messages to others without worrying being censored

There's a big difference between using tools intended for general population and being skilled enough in offensive security to make a difference. It may incentivise some people to learn further, but I don't think the effect would be that large. It's kind of like everyone at Uni knowing about P2P a few years ago - but they knew nothing about protocol design.

The ordinary people have their douyin/bilibili and fear of the party so they don't need to learn those things

Why would ordinary Chinese people fear the party? The party has been overseeing the greatest expansion of wealth in human history combined with a massive internal propaganda effort which I would assume is pitching them as the good guys and downplays all the brutal stuff they've done

If anything I'd expect ordinary people to be far too trusting that the authorities are reasonable and friendly. They must have real problems with earnest, motivated and well meaning people wandering off the approved parts of the internet into censored topics and getting confused by whatever happens next.

Fear getting disappeared/jailed for doing something forbidden. You're right that they may not see it as "fear of the party" from inside. More like "why would I do something illegal". But in a system like that those things are actually equivalent.

You're forgetting all the corruption and hypocrisy in China. Do you think the individuals that make up the authorities act in a "reasonable and friendly" towards regular people who interact with them? The contradictions seen by anyone who's paying attention undermine the trust you posit and some fraction of the propaganda messages.

It kinda feels like you understand China as a thought experiment and not a real place.

> In terms of quantity

At the very least China is generally gonna have everyone else beat on quantity of people involved in quite a lot of things.

check AI, green energy, EV, mobile computing, cloud computing, quantum stuff, robots etc. it is pretty much China vs US now when it comes to quality.

how many people would seriously believe that EU or Japan can possibly compete with China on its own in terms of quality for those above mentioned sectors.

just looking at those low quality & high pollution Japanese & European cars.

Is the last line said ironically? Japanese brands long have and continue to absolutely dominate long term reliability ratings for vehicles, and the first mass market hybrid and full EV vehicles came from Japan.

If you’re talking about innovation and mass EV manufacturing, sure the US and China are leading, but the European Volkswagen and BMW Groups are still competitive. Japan is admittedly a laggard in the EV market, but largely because EVs are still a luxury good and Japanese brands are primarily mainstream.

> Japanese brands long have and continue to absolutely dominate long term reliability ratings for vehicles

such hard earned experience is no longer relevant in the era of EV.

> but the European Volkswagen and BMW Groups are still competitive

none of them is even capably of designing self driven cars on their own. same for the AI based infotainment systems fitted on EVs. they are just Canon in 2024/2025.

> EVs are still a luxury good

I wouldn't call it luxury. It is the cheapest option to own a car in Shanghai, BYD Seagull is being offered for $9k USD.

> Japanese brands are primarily mainstream

they have already lost the battle. if EV makers can't build their own self driving systems and those AI based infotainment systems, then they are in the wrong business. Batteries is another story that can not be ignored, Japan and the EU do not have any meaningful control on that.

I don't see any chance how European or Japanese car makers can survive in mid term.

Interesting also is the type of names that appear in so many western academic journals. What I mean to say is that even in Western journals "Alice" and "Bob" is quite rare

when "alice" and "bob" can become a lawyer to talk their clients into paying some stupid amount, why bother studying STEM.

> especially with their strict control of information.

You have gross misunderstanding of how this strict control works. It isn't like novels or North Korea where some govt agency is creating/curating the info.

> especially with their strict control of information. Most people there will have difficulty independently learning about cybersecurity.

I'm puzzled by this assertion. I know quite a few self-taught infosec folks who grew up there. China is not North Korea. The government, by and large, doesn't monitor what you're doing day-to-day, unless you're a political activist or some other "undesirable". The Great Firewall doesn't stop you from accessing infosec content; and in any case, the use of VPNs is prevalent among techies.

To be fair, the parent's claim that China is "ahead" in infosec also feels like fearmongering. The one thing that's true for China is that their government has far fewer qualms about hacking Western infrastructure to get dirt on dissidents, steal IP, and so on. But that's a matter of ethics and law, not tech.

> The one thing that's true for China is that their government has far fewer qualms about hacking Western infrastructure to get dirt on dissidents, steal IP, and so on. But that's a matter of ethics and law, not tech.

As opposed to the DoD, which strictly fights for freedom, liberty, and democracy?

> As opposed to the DoD, which strictly fights for freedom, liberty, and democracy?

Yes, the whataboutism is unwarranted here. The US government is no angel, but is far more constrained in this regard. The bar to become "the enemy of the state" is much higher - for example, your comment won't get you in trouble here. The US government also wouldn't, say, hack Spotify and snoop on their business plans to prop up a competing US startup - something that is commonplace with the Chinese intelligence apparatus.

> The bar to become "the enemy of the state" is much higher - for example, your comment won't get you in trouble here.

I think you're drastically overestimating the effect of being sarcastic about jingoistic rhetoric on the chinese internet. I imagine China, much like the DoD, is quite proud of their ability to penetrate systems and cause havoc.

> The US government also wouldn't, say, hack Spotify and snoop on their business plans to prop up a competing US startup - something that is commonplace with the Chinese intelligence apparatus.

I can't imagine there's much worth taking from Spotify. Meanwhile, if you think the US won't steal technology from China when there's something worth stealing, you're a massive fool.

> To be fair, the parent's claim that China is "ahead" in infosec also feels like fearmongering. The one thing that's true for China is that their government has far fewer qualms about hacking Western infrastructure to get dirt on dissidents, steal IP, and so on. But that's a matter of ethics and law, not tech.

I've heard China also has many more personnel working in this space.

Ive also heard that China has many more people living in it than the US. Ive also heard that Chinese higher education system is state funded

> Ive also heard that China has many more people living in it than the US. Ive also heard that Chinese higher education system is state funded

So? It kinds sounds like you're making an excuse, but excuses don't do anything to address the capability difference caused by the larger number of personnel.

The US used to be by far the largest country in the developed world. It could be argued that sheer numbers allowed it to succeed and dominate throughout the previous century. Today the US is no longer the largest country in the developed world, not by a long shot

What's your point? Your comment doesn't really address anything relevant regarding the US's goals and positioning to achieve them.

For instance, if the US wants to to secure its networks and be able to respond effectively to hacking threats from its geopolitical rivals, it may have to invest proportionally more of its human resources in infosec to remain competitive. I see no good reason why it can't do that.

Also, noting that one reason China may be ahead in infosec is because it may have many more people working in that area was to rebut claims that "China is ahead in infosec" was "fearmongering."

In short, China having a larger population may be one reason why they're ahead, but that why is not very relevant to decisions about what to do about it.

Im just offering you an explanation about evolution of powers in the world, and human resources is a huge factor. Already in his last mandate Trump was constantly talking about the power of US military, much like Russia does about its nukes. These sort of things are done out of weakness, not strength

> Im just offering you an explanation about evolution of powers in the world, and human resources is a huge factor.

Sorry, that wasn't an explanation that was needed nor asked for.

And its sounds like weird sort of demographic determinism, which is kinda so oversimple to be obviously not true.

I'm sorry I didnt realise you think Im only allowed to respond in the way you find appropriate.

If you do not want to take into account China's huge and relatively well educated and quite capable working class that is your issue

That doesn’t sound like China at all. Having worked in Beijing for 9 years, they pay techies fairly well, not USA FAANG well, but better than Japan, much of Europe, Korea, even Singapore. So there is a lot of private sector movement in these areas, not just government. Information is easily obtained, piracy rates are still very high so it’s not like anything is really locked down behind a paywall. There are plenty of hackers who are in it with a passion, not just for the money, much like you’d find in the states or anywhere in the developed world.

Hahahhahahah no way. Salaries in Japan, Korea, Singapore are WAY better than China.

Not in tech. There is a weird de-emphasis of programmers in countries that aren’t the USA or mainland china. So a programmer from Japan with some experience/skills can move to Beijing (yes, there were many Japanese expat SWEs when I was there) for a better salary.

What? I'm Japanese but I've never heard a story about changing jobs to Chinese company. I heard a lot of stories about changing jobs to GAFAM.

Could you tell me more about that?

Microsoft paid more in Beijing than Tokyo while I was there, it turns out even experienced programmers in Tokyo don’t make $200k/year. Especially if you have a PhD or research in a hot field, you can get a pretty good job in richer Chinese cities. But an apartment is probably more expensive to rent in Beijing, and definitely in Shanghai, than it is in much of Tokyo, so there are trade offs.

It's true that rents in Tokyo are expensive, but Kawasaki or Adachi, where the commute takes about 20 minutes, are cheap. I don't know about the salary, but I checked X or blog and it seems that some are work in the US headquarters, but none in Beijing.

Anyway, when are you there? It looks you are talking in 2010.

I don't think it's that much of an outrageous claim, plenty of our fellow countrymen works at local regional branches and English wings of China-owned companies these days. It doesn't take much stretch from there to imagine some of them moving to near their HQ.

It's annoying that sometimes people thinks there has to be basic mutual intelligibility between Chinese and Japanese languages against the reality that there's none, but this is not about that at all. Chill.

Is this response about a Chinese-owned company? They said about Microsoft in other responses and I don't receive like that.

I'm not good at English, so I don't get the nuances that native speakers do.

Better than avg(China) - sure.

Better than tier1(China), where most of the research happens - the salaries in China are easily beating Japan and significant portion of the EU "centers" on top of having significantly lower cost of living on most of the relevant dimensions.

As I said in another thread, you can live cheaply in Japan if you're about 20 minutes by train from Tokyo. In that thread, someone said that rent is expensive in Beijing and Shanghai. It looks similar.

Anyway, in China I heard that if you go to hospital in a different household registration, you have to pay the full medical costs. It sounds the cost of living in China is expensive.

> in China I heard that if you go to hospital in a different household registration, you have to pay the full medical costs.

When talking about paying such full medical costs, let me share some concrete numbers with you, all numbers are from tier 1 cities like Shanghai -

Chest CT scan is 170-200 RMB, or 25-30 USD MRI scan is 260-460 RMB, or 35-65 USD Ultrasound is 20-170 RMB, or 3-25 USD PET CT is 6500 RMB, or 900 USD

https://ybj.sh.gov.cn/cmsres/9b/9baabfec6f6c4e3fa03d6289f5e7...

Ambulance cost is shockingly low, 30 RMB per call plus 7 RMB per KM, that is 4 USD per call plus 1 USD per KM.

https://wx.sh120.sh.cn/mobjsp/helpinfo/FeeScale.jsp?communit...

when you can't afford those tests in the west or facing a stupidly long waiting period, don't be sad, just jump onto an airplane to get yourself checked & treated in Shanghai. You'd still save heap of money saved after such extra travel costs.

Haha, it's more expensive than Japan. A frog in a well does not know the ocean.

there are also $1 houses in Japan, it is definitely leading in such affordability race.

If you consider the exchange rate, of course, salaries in China would be much lower. If considering purchasing power and cost of living, Chinese salaries would have a relatively high level of competitiveness.

There are sooo many programmers in China that they don’t value programming. You get paid peanuts because there’s so many people to do the job.

I think this is just baseless prejudice. In my experience, having lived in the West and in the East, I found that on average, at least in the urban population, people in the communist and ex-communist space seem to be far more computer literate while computer experts seem to mentally get around "magic and fluff" much easier. Also the authorities are far less concerned about "incorrect" ideologies creeping through (especially through academia) than you probably immagine.

"Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance."

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