A cycling desk / Zwifting with a split keyboard | Hacker News Reader

A cycling desk / Zwifting with a split keyboard

ohrg.org

188 pointsbreezykermo93 comments

OP: equipment note for you at the end of this-

Most folks aren't really familiar with what training for competitive cycling (or structured training in general) looks like.

There are large, month-scale blocks where you're simply building aerobic capacity by cycling at low-ish intensity. Heart rate is somewhere between 115 and 145 for me personally during these efforts. 15 hour (or more!) weeks are not uncommon.

Nils van der Poel was doing something like 6-hour blocks of zone 2 during his base season as an Olympic speed skater.

When outdoor riding is available, it's preferable, but indoor trainer sessions are basically always more time efficient for a given training load. You make consistent power, there aren't street lights or flat tires. If you run out of carb mix you go to the kitchen and fetch more. In winter, it's the only reasonable option. Going for a ride in -15C and salt slush is fine for a commute (crazy, I know), but doing it for 15 hours a week, probably in the dark, is not reasonable. Indoor is the only practical option to get this training load in winter.

Most people just watch TV or use Zwift (social riding simulator) during these blocks. I'm not much of a TV guy, and to be honest, I find a good technical problem to be great distraction from the drudgery of Zone 2.

Note for OP: I've actually considered using a split keyboard in a very similar way to this. I run aero bars on my bikes for ultra-distance events, and I have them on the trainer right now. At some point I would like to mount a split keyboard to the aero extensions themselves - this would take all the load off the wrists. It is also possible to use the aero bar armrests without the extensions and to be able to type this way. If I end up prototyping this I will shoot you an email.

I'm a heavy Zwift user myself and I saw think this is genius and now I want to replicate it. I even ride a Cannondale and use a ZSA keyboard haha

The reason we know Niels van der Poel's training in such detail is because he wrote a manifesto about it, "How to Skate a 10k", when he retired (after winning gold and setting the WR). He did his base aerobic phase primarily on bicycle, writing:

> My target developed during the summer of 2021 to reach 33h of cycling weekly. I would aim to do three 7h bike rides and two 6h rides. If I would’ve been able to run, which I wasn’t due to injury, I would have lowered the hours a little and settled for 25h weekly (or approx. 30h if I would’ve combined running and cycling).

33h at 240 watts, about 28k calories/week!

It is a fascinating read for anyone interested in endurance sports, highly recommended: https://www.howtoskate.se/

I raced at an elite amateur level for about a decade and I never really saw the purpose of those huge zone 2 training blocks. Almost no races were more than four hours long and most were in the one to three hour range. It felt like there was a lot of cargo culting of european pros who had very different requirements given the far longer races they were doing over there. Unless you are an aspiring pro or willing to sacrifice your life to cycling, I tend to think those long z2 blocks are a waste of time. I loved riding, but I found zone 2 rides to be pure drudgery if done more than a few times a month.

Hard intervals a few days a week with one or two long rides every week or two are more than enough to race at the cat 1 level (assuming above average VO2 max and if you don't have that no amount of z2 is going to make you competitive anyway). At my peak, my threshold was around 5 W/Kg, ~10 W/Kg for 1 minute and 20+ W/Kg for 5 seconds. My biggest week of training was less than 20 hours and I averaged around 10 hours per week for the years I was racing.

Plans I see for time crunched athletes tend to do more Z3 plus higher zone intervals, so I think your take is valid. I train for XC MTB (my A-race is 60miles ish) and ultra distance, so maybe the Z2 work is more important for me.

However, this is all beside the point - whether it makes sense or not, there are a lot of folks doing polarized plans that involve a lot of Z2, so the desire to be able to type while on the trainer isn't unreasonable.

This is precisely what you shouldn't do. This is what the "system" wants you to do, to work while you exercise, to work while you're with your family, ... What you should do is work the hours you have to and not one more, then you get up, take your bike and enjoy nature.

The negative effects of being sedentary are known, and it requires extra effort in exercise to just offset the health risks of being sedentary during a full workday. It seems obvious and logical to me that if we can be less sedentary while working, it would be meaningfully beneficial to us mentally and physically. The system wants us to work. It's up to us to design how we work in a way that isn't as destructive to us.

!!!

Is it ok to do work while you're exercising? Is it ok to exercise while you're doing work?

Student of the Talmud asks the rebbe: "Rebbe, am I allowed to smoke cigarettes while I study the Talmud ?" The Rebbe categorically says "no, it would be highly offensive to smoke while studying the Talmud". Student then asked: "Am I allowed to study the Talmud while I am smoking a cigarette?" Rebbe: "Well.."

Work at a desk, then take time to go ride a bike, it may super charge your work.

Going for a ride is a great way to get into a flow state and really think.

I don't think you understand what training to be a competitive cyclist looks like. 15 ish hours of relatively constant power per week sounds about right for base phase, which tends to coincide with winter. This is different from rec riding.

I used to commute 1.5-2 hours each way to and from work, 5 days a week. Sometimes I’d go for a ride at lunch too.

In Calgary where the weather sucks.

Think I was doing about 1200km per month.

Just a filthy casual cyclist tho.

Doesn't work well when you have a busy family life. I would argue that anyone doing 1200km a month is not a casual cyclist, and if you have a partner, they need to be fully onboard with your "hobby" time commitment for something like this to work.

Christ almighty, we've found a hardman. Point taken.

It's zone 2. In the depths of winter base phase, I (not OP) can be doing 3 hours of relatively continuous power on the trainer, up to 5 times a week. It's mind numbing. I would be watching TV otherwise.

I'd be outside if I could. I live somewhere where weather happens, and I'm not biking 3 hours a day in -10C and nasty salt muck.

What if you like your work and you want to exercise/boost your VO2/stay healthy?

What if it's dark and rainy outside where you live for quite a few months per year?

What if you want to write a book while biking?

This isn't working cutting into exercise time. It's getting more out of your working time. If I'm competitively training could be looking at 2 hours of aerobic base exercise a day. If I can do this whilst working - allows me to enjoy my evenings with my partner

Did you actually read the article? Nothing in it indicates that the author is working more hours. Spending time with your family and "working while riding an exercise bike" are not MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

If you have to "be at work" (such as in a remote job) why not get some free exercise at the same time?

Super cool.

One improvement: get a different bike saddle. One that doesn't put pressure on the perineum. There's evidence to suggest extended time spent in a bicycle saddle can cause ED.[1]

1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S17436...

This should be a comfort driven decision. If you aren't having discomfort (including, e.g., genital numbness), there is not a lot of reason to switch. If you're having discomfort and pushing through the pain, that's a problem. OP never mentions saddle discomfort.

What makes you think that saddle puts pressure on the author's perineum?

A properly fitted road bike saddle is sized so all your weight is on your "sit bones", parts of your pelvis around the perineum.

If your saddle is putting pressure on your perineum, that means it's the wrong saddle for you.

The problem is different people have different-sized gaps between their sit bones, so different people need different saddles. They are absolutely not a one-size-fits-all part. A narrow saddle might fit one person (probably a man) just fine, while being too narrow for someone else (possibly a woman, as women tend to have wider sit bones).

If your saddle is causing you pain, you should see your local cycle shop and have them do a proper fitting. Properly-equipped shops will have a device that measures your sit bones so they can recommend a properly-sized saddle for you.

Also, and speaking from experience after having a professional bike fit, a "saddle issue" often is not directly related to the saddle itself. You might be placed too forward and slipping just ever so slightly on the saddle, so you're sitting on the "rod", instead of the back part of the saddle; the saddle might be too high or too low, etc.

> If your saddle is putting pressure on your perineum, that means it's the wrong saddle for you.

I mean, that's pretty much what he said: "Get a different saddle"

No, it's not. He was assuming that saddle wasn't a good fit for the author, when there's no evidence of that at all. In fact, he was assuming that it was a bad saddle purely because it's a narrow road bike saddle and not some wide, cushioned saddle you find on $100 bikes at Walmart. In short, the OP knows absolutely nothing about bike saddles or how they relate to human anatomy, and shouldn't give out advice about them.

So are you putting pressure on your wrists with your wrists bent at an angle while typing? I think this is totally awesome in principal, but isn't that basically asking for some carpal tunnel issues?

It's kind of hard to tell from the photos and videos though which are both at weird angles.

I think with proper cycling posture you can take the pressure off of your wrists.

Use your back and shoulder muscles to support your upper body and arms, so that you can ride with elbows bent. If you can bend your elbows, you can avoid pushing on the handlebars for support. That will make for more comfortable wrists with or without a keyboard.

Reference: Sheldon "Ouch!" Brown https://sheldonbrown.com/pain.html#wrists

Funny you referenced Sheldon. He's like Knuth of cycling.

The industry will keep shoving down your throat their new "advancements" every year, but at the end of the day, bikes hasn't changed a lot, and the common knowledge will remain the same.

I don’t know that I completely agree. Yes, many elements are similar, but a carbon road bike with disc brakes, electronic shifting, deep wheels, radar, a computer and tubeless 28mm or 30mm tyres is an actual wonder to ride. I’m justifying a truly silly spend, but when I get on an old bike or a rental, it feels like stepping back in time.

Yeah, I have an old Panasonic Sport that I'll take out with some older fellas who live near me in rural Kentucky. They have nice carbon bikes with all the bells and whistles. It's night and day how much harder I have to work to keep up with them

Unsurprisingly, core strength is a big part of cycling. It's a good test to lean down in a more aero position and lift your hands slightly off the bars and see how long you can hold it.

so less pressure on your wrists while typing would be quite the core workout over an extended period of time.

Maybe we need a TT bike keyboard?

Yeah I learned this lesson the hard way when after a century ride, my left hand ring finger and pinky went numb for almost two days. Started making sure I had my elbows bent and used my core to keep myself more upright.

I would also be worried about putting pressure on other body parts (groin area). This is a nice idea, but I'm not sure if a racing bike is right for it - the lean-forward posture minimizes drag while cycling, but that's of course irrelevant here. So a bike with a more upright sitting position, or even a recumbent bicycle, might be better?

That! Moving your legs to avoid sitting all day seems fine but putting yourself in an unergonomic position like on a road bike seems counter productive. Your neck and lower back will probably tighten up badly over time.

I love Zwifting, but the idea of riding in that position while also trying to concentrate seems really stressful :)

Maybe on a hybrid I could look at my monitor while typing, but that seating position makes things quite hard.

Good on ya for trying though! Allez!

I hooked up a shelf over the handlebars of an indoor trainer. With regards to stressful, I found anytime I had to concentrate on something - the pedaling would drop off. The cycling while computing was best for movies or video games (particularly RPG's being the best)

Yeah, I've found the same problem (with a standing desk): as soon as I need to concentrate I stop maintaining my cadence. Maybe it's something I could train myself out of but I haven't been worried about it; cycling is my "productive" thing, I don't need to double it.

So far I've just been using the (open source!) app Auuki to drive my smart trainer while I stream television. Works great on NixOS. https://auuki.com/

I am curious to hear about what games people are playing while cycling (other than Zwift, of course.)

Appreciate the aauki shout-out! :)

FWIW, my go-to is Project Zomboid. A fantastic game!! There are a lot of actions that need a few seconds to complete. It's kinda perfect. I was also combining with an absurd amount of edibles too. Suddenly, I was putting in 4 to 6 hours of zone 2!! The 90 minute sessions suddenly seemed short. (I'm travelling right now, but wow - I'm looking back fondly. Edibles, Zomboid, cycling, and tons and tons of honey tea (ie: dumping honey into tea; consumed about 2 to 4 tablespoons every 30 minutes))

Yeah, programming while at the cycling desk setup just did not work; cadence would drop to just way too low. Haven't had a chance to try that setup for a thing like a standup meeting though, could maybe work for zoom meetings. I feel like 'listening' only would be doable.

I don't have this setup myself, but I imagine Caves of Qud would work great. Its turn based so you don't have the problem of needing perfect control, in fact sometimes I need a good minute or so to think about my next move. I can easily sink hours into it anyway, might be worth me looking into

Yeah, I don't think I could do zone 2. Zone 1, yeah.

Frankly, I don't see how anyone could really do z2 while fully concentrating on something else (work). z2 isn't "hard", but it's definitely more effort than just spinning.

I've tried taking meetings while on the bike and as soon as my HR gets above about 105 it becomes noticeable to the other party that I'm clearly doing something exertive. And even though my RHR is about 48-50, riding at 105bpm doesn't even get me into z2 so it's literally just "junk miles"... so I stopped. The joint risk of embarrassing myself + not actually being useful exercise was too much to justify it.

Steve Roberts built a chording keyboard into the handlebars of his recumbent bike. Unclear how much writing he really got done while riding the behemoth Winnebiko II around, but it was definitely a key event that inspired me towards computing & ubiquitous computing, made me see adulting as possibly being cool.

https://microship.com/winnebiko-ii/

This is incredible. "I simply type in binary.... I can do about 30 wpm when I'm on a roll, so to speak."

Always glad to see someone reference Steve & his computing escapades!

I went looking for my copy of Computing Across America when I saw OP’s post, so I could post about it here, then I saw you beat me to it. A really nice guy, who I met when he stopped at the company I was working at, Chips and Technologies, back in the day, in San Jose. Steve if you see this, reply here and say hi to us!

A split kb with integrated trackball would help alleviate the awkward mousing situations, e.g. the charybdis [1]. I'm in a similar position having gone down the ergo split keyboard rabbit hole and vim everywhere, now building a charybdis myself

1. https://github.com/Bastardkb/Charybdis

Dactyls look interesting too (1). Personally, I'm thinking an 'electric eraser' mounted as a thumb stick would be good too.

1. https://github.com/trentrand/ergonomic-keyboard

warpd has helped me, as far as limiting annoying mouse use.

https://github.com/rvaiya/warpd

I’m yet to deploy this but want to, how have you found it?

It's great, I mostly get by with Tridactyl on the browser but there's the odd website that doesn't work well with it. Warpd does better than anything else at this job. I do have a keymap to get the pointer out of the way, warpd is quite scriptable.

I went with the less DIY model by getting a UHK with a trackball thumb module: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball

Heh, I do 2hrs of z2 4x a week (8hr total) with a Charybdis and inclined treadmill. I use two wrist rests rubberbanded together though; the height of the Charybdis is significant and I don't hover my hands. I'm usually programming, though when I run into more complex problems I usually switch to less cognitively burdensome tasks. Or I just stare out the window and let my gut sit on the problem... which is surprisingly effective in coming up with solutions.

https://imgur.com/a/YpQElUs

I clamped a piece of wood to the desk's edge to have something to push against, as having a point of stability is nice. You can see the back of the treadmill's control panel - I took a regular treadmill, dismantled it, and mounted the panel to my adjustable desk. The treadmill is propped up on blocks to get a ~12% incline; my usual pace is around 3.1-3.4mph, depending on the season/humidity. Sweat... is significant. I usually have a towel under my wrists to uh... collect the arm-runnage >_>

I'm using ball transfer units for the trackball. They're nice, but (as with all trackballs) you should clean the BTUs if you want to keep the smooth flicking. I use a 4k tv as my monitor, so flicking from one corner of the screen to the laptop screen all the way on the other side is really nice.

Z2 sessions are supposed to be boring, they force you to endure the mental pain of not feeling physical pain when doing something dull. They also train you to listen to your body. Doing something else while in a Z2 session is going to kill those Z2 gains.

And overall, being bored is great for the mind, help with creativity, problem solving...

Once you embrace Z2 sessions, they became some sort of meditation, with the endorphins helping after a few hours.

Watching a video or typing stuff will remove all those potential benefits!

Sometimes it's nice to not overthink or try to optimize everything. Just enjoy the moment, enjoy the mental pain.

This is ludicrous. The point of Z2 is a specific physiologic adaptation. There isn’t really any mental pain. Anything you can do to make your training more consistent is positive for your long term performance. Save the mental gymnastics for the actual hard days.

Staying in a hard VO2 interval or pushing through on those long threshold efforts is an actual mental exercise. Don’t push the belief onto people that staring at a wall in Z2 is giving you some gains. If it works for you then go for it, but it’s a wild mentally that thinks a physically easy ride needs to be hardened up.

lol what? Vitaliy recommends watching movies during Z2 stairmaster sessions (2-4 hours long). No athlete/trainer says they have to be boring. If you have access to mountains, doing a long Z2 hike in a beautiful area is totally beneficial.

Personally I don't even start a 'ride' in Zwift for my Z2 rides for this very reason. I stare at the title screen and use my phone (connected via BT from an adjacent room so as not to be tempted to use it) to load the smart trainer. Finally I use fans, but as exhaust to create negative pressure that pulls as much O2 out of the room as possible.

Next week plan is to start riding without bibs or a saddle so as to maximize the anguish.

This is satire right?

I’d say it’s pretty much mainline “pain cave” zwift mythology.

Of course.

Are you familiar with the Bike Spike Theft Deterrent?

Sounds like a very effective Z2 protocol. I might also recommend making a phone call to Comcast, turning on speaker phone, and doing the ride while listening to hold music. Pro tip: if someone answers just ask to speak to a manager - that should get you an additional 3+ hours of uninterrupted Z2 time.

This sounds like bro science. Having boring sessions is not the point, Z2 training is designed to build endurance, improve cardiovascular efficiency, and increase your body's ability to burn fat as a fuel source at moderate intensities. It’s not about enduring boredom or embracing “mental pain” but rather about consistently training at a level that is sustainable for extended periods.

I just do the Z2 sessions to convert carbohydrates and fats into heat. I don't really need mental toughness for anything.

lol, citation desperately needed

Ludicrous, deeply confused, and wrong bro science.

You sound like a guy perfectly happy executing workouts directly in TrainerRoad! :D

This is madness. But having said that, I might try to do the same.

This is madness. I will never try this!

Same, I don't understand zwift, nor do I understand using a trainer outside of warming up before a time trial, xc or cyclocross race context.

The whole fun of cycling is to actually ride a bicycle, feel the wind, the road texture, notice the changing seasons in the landscape, rail corners at high speed...trainers annihilate all this and reduce this nice and enjoyable activity to a boring and terrible fitness activity. No screen would change that.

I think the idea is: if you have to work anyway, you might as well get some huge Z1/2 volume in while you're working. Most of us with regular 9-5 jobs don't usually have time for the 25-35 hour training weeks that full-time pros sometimes do.

That may be, but you know that in order to truly one-up him and show your dedication you're going to have to do it on rollers.

I agree- utterly insane. He should be using Emacs.

He will earn ten million merits in no time!

I still think hot tub desk is the future

I’m on Zwift a lot with the Zwift Ride and Wahoo Kickr core. But I’m looking for a recumbent setup so that I can also work while riding or game on the ps5 in a more comfy position. For keyboard I have the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard which is perfect since it has a mouse layer built in. Haven’t figured out the recumbent setup yet though. Any tips appreciated. I’m in the EU.

Trying to do productive work via a keyboard on a bike isn't going to catch on. A walking desk is better for that. I've had the idea of creating a custom game controller on the handle bars though, in a similar setup to this to play some simple games.

Voice memos with AirPods when your out riding, then at a desk take the notes and do the work

Love the idea!

My gym has stationary recumbent bikes -- I wonder if rigging up a keyboard to one of those would be better? If you don't need to put your upper body weight on handlebars, maybe it'll be easier to have a more traditional mouse/keyboard setup.

Won't be as cool though

Stationary recumbent bikes works great. I have little tray with mouse and trackball that I slide over my knees when cycling.

I use an AirDesk with a stationary recumbent bike:

https://memalign.github.io/p/airdesk.html

It’s been life-changing!

I've seen people with small but wide desks placed between the handlebars and the seat of a stationary bike, with enough space to place a laptop. I suppose if you wanted you could also use a wall mounted display and place a keyboard and mouse on the desk.

> This allows me to rest my palms on the handlebars and to extend my fingers pretty naturally over the top of them to reach the keys. There is definitely a bit of wrist awkwardness palpable in this position, and I aim to experiment with other angles and positions as I get more comfortable with the set up.

This is just asking for wrist problems. I hope they find the better position they seek. Maybe use that core more and keep the wrists up as much as possible.

I'm planning on doing this with my stair stepper but I don't see a good way to do it with a traditional style keyboard that will be both comfortable and efficient. Split keyboards look like a good solution but of course there's going to be a period of adjustment. Perhaps a winter project. Still looking for what would be the best layout for someone who codes primarily in curly brace languages.

If anyone wants to help me with https://veloa.com my email address is in my bio. Thanks!

I'm guessing that using some clip-on aero bars would make a big difference. Then you're not using your hands to support any weight so the typing would be a little easier.

And if you're doing hours of Z2 training, you likely want to be getting more time in a position closer to what you'd be doing in the drops.

I would destroy that thing with sweat in the first 30 min.

Not sure what all the other comments are about, but I think this is great! Would be interesting to see if this can be done with a cheaper keyboard too

Looks like he’s putting a lot of his body weight on his wrists while typing? That sure is gonna summon the Carpal Tunnel Fairy.

Hmmm... Maybe I should hook up my recumbent to the trainer.

If I could upvote several times , I would , kudos! Inspired!

fucking Inigo San Milan and Peter Attia and their "zone 2" bullshit

this is nothing new. Back in the day, the teaching was "ride in the little ring in winter" which was essentially Zone 2

Plus San Milan is tainted by his Saunier Duval years, and Attia is clearly a grifter

Just fucking ride. Most of the time easy, once or twice a week hard

now get off my lawn!

"most of the time easy" ... = z2. z1 isn't going to lead to any adaptations (or burn many calories, depending on your objective), and z3+ isn't "easy", so for all your agita about San Milan & Attia you're basically saying the same thing.

Or to tie this into running, too, the same thing Maffetone & Friel also espouse.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com