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Comment by whilenot-dev | Hacker News Reader

The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months on unlimited contracts - limited contacts can't be terminated unilateral. And, depending on social situation, you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer[0] without any costs.

[0]: https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendi...

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Right there are some restrictions but people seem to have the weird idea that you can't get fired without cause or redundancy. If the employer does it correctly they can essentially get rid of anyone, those restrictions notwithstanding.

You can get fired immediately without cause, but that's against the law, and the law is pretty clear on lawful causes:

  § 27.

  Als ein wichtiger Grund, der den Dienstgeber zur vorzeitigen Entlassung berechtigt, ist insbesondere anzusehen:

    1. Wenn der Angestellte im Dienste untreu ist, sich in seiner Tätigkeit ohne Wissen oder Willen des Dienstgebers von dritten Personen unberechtigte Vorteile zuwenden läßt, insbesondere entgegen der Bestimmung des § 13 eine Provision oder eine sonstige Belohnung annimmt, oder wenn er sich einer Handlung schuldig macht, die ihn des Vertrauens des Dienstgebers unwürdig erscheinen läßt;
    2. wenn der Angestellte unfähig ist, die versprochenen oder die den Umständen nach angemessenen Dienste (§ 6) zu leisten;
    3. wenn einer der im § 1 bezeichneten Angestellten ohne Einwilligung des Dienstgebers ein selbständiges kaufmännisches Unternehmen betreibt oder im Geschäftszweige des Dienstgebers für eigene oder fremde Rechnung Handelsgeschäfte macht oder wenn ein Angestellter den in § 7, Absatz 4, bezeichneten Verboten zuwiderhandelt;
    4. wenn der Angestellte ohne einen rechtmäßigen Hinderungsgrund während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit die Dienstleistung unterläßt oder sich beharrlich weigert, seine Dienste zu leisten oder sich den durch den Gegenstand der Dienstleistung gerechtfertigten Anordnungen des Dienstgebers zu fügen, oder wenn er andere Bedienstete zum Ungehorsam gegen den Dienstgeber zu verleiten sucht;
    5. wenn der Angestellte durch eine längere Freiheitsstrafe oder durch Abwesenheit während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit, ausgenommen wegen Krankheit oder Unglücksfalls, an der Verrichtung seiner Dienste gehindert ist;
    6. wenn der Angestellte sich Tätlichkeiten, Verletzungen der Sittlichkeit oder erhebliche Ehrverletzungen gegen den Dienstgeber, dessen Stellvertreter, deren Angehörige oder gegen Mitbedienstete zuschulden kommen läßt.

The employee can also "fire their employer", see § 26[0] for lawful causes.

The proof of guilt is up to the one who fires in the end.

I know of one person who got fired unlawful, and their ex-employer is now EUR 80k+ poorer.

[0]: https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundes...

I think you're mixing up firing and dismissing. You need a reason to fire someone but firing means no notice period and no unemployment benefits, but you don't need a reason to dismiss someone with notice, which is relatively unique nerf in terms of EU workers rights by comparison.

GP was talking about firing and you were talking about the usual termination of an employment contract with a notice period.

You don't need a reason to terminate an employment contract with a notice period, correct, but that doesn't mean it wasn't socially discriminating in origin - that depends on the social situation (eg. older employees can sue for discrimination on age) and the Arbeiterkammer will fight for it.

If they don't need to provide a reason for terminating you then you also can't have a case for discrimination even if that were to happen since no employer is gonna tell you "yeah, we're firing you behause you're too black/woman", they'll just say "you're fired". AK was never of any use with despicable employers since the employee protection laws are very lax and employers very good at skirting the law so they can abuse you without being legally liable. Just read Kununu reviews of several Austrian companies.

> Just read Kununu reviews of several Austrian companies.

I'd rather suggest to go to the Arbeits- und Sozialgericht[0] and listen to some real cases, they are public anyway.

[0]: https://www.justiz.gv.at/asg-wien/arbeits-und-sozialgericht-...

How does looking at "real cases" help me? They don't make my own cases any less real?

Just because cases don't go through the court system, doesn't mean employer abuse doesn't happen.

you can still suspect discrimination, and if you sue they have to prove that it wasn't.

This isn't America. AK won't help you sue based on suspicions of discriminations if you don't bring written evidence that makes it a slam dunk case. And the court isn't biased towards the employee like the US jury.

Austrian law isn't US law, correct. I still don't understand your persistent pessimism though...

What I once saw when I went to the Arbeits- und Sozialgericht was a man, in the beginning of his 40s, suing for unlawful termination of his employment contract, after notice period and 7 months of employment. He sued with the help of the Arbeiterkammer. The judge asked the employer for their reasons, and tried to figure out if the termination has been made through thoughtful reasoning and after consideration of any other options. It is the responsibility of the employer too(!), and frankly in their best interest, to bring their employees up to speed and make them succeed in their work.

"We don't need to state any reason" won't fly in front of the judge in Austria, as the judge wants to make an informed decision.

exactly, this isn't america. despite not needing to have a specific reason for letting someone go you are not allowed to use morally questionable reasons (which goes beyond outright discrimination), and you must evaluate how the loss of employment affects the employee. that means, for example, the likelihood of that employee finding a new job with similar pay, (so you can't easily let go of older people), their family situation, or if they have another income. so you basically have to choose the employee who would be least affected. as far as i understand these kinds questions are not considered at all in the US. only discrimination againt protected classes, as defined by the law.

>The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months

The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country?

Wouldn't be such a big issue if unemployment wouldn't be a pitiful 60% of your salary for ~3 months (yes it can be longer but you're then at the mercy of the system handler if they agree with the job search you're doing, otherwise they can also cut you off if you don't want to take hard jobs like warehouse work) .

>you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer

AK will only help you sue only in case of unfair dismissal which rarely happens because employers don't need to provide a reason for terminating you as long as they give you the 6-week-3-month notice. So long hours, burnout and hire-and-fire mentality is rampant among Austrian companies, but rarely talked about because it contradicts the "most livable country" narrative paid for by Austria to the Economist who runs that yearly campaign-ad.

> The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country?

I don't think of Austria as a socialist country and I think it's fair to be able to let people go without reason, but with a notice period (and unemployment benefits and social healthcare).

In practice, it won't be much different than with the requirement of a reason anyway: If you'll want to fight it, then you'll need to go through legal ways and contest the employers decision anyway. In Austria there's a 2-week time limit to bring in a lawsuit on unlawful termination of an employment contract if you still want to work there.

Where did you get the idea that Austria is a socialist country? It used to be to a certain degree, but those times are long gone, except for strong unionization, the social safety net and worker protections. Austria is a deeply conservative country and has been for much of its history. Vienna is a bit of an exception, as it has actually been ruled by social democrats for ~100 years (with a violent break during the 30s and 40s).

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