Sega is delisting 60 classic games from Steam | Hacker News Reader

Sega is delisting 60 classic games from Steam

arstechnica.com

95 pointsmariuz70 comments

Maybe a controversial opinion, but screw them for delisting games. Why would I buy these games when they obviously have no interest in selling them? To me, this is a license to go download the ROMs.

Piracy is the one true frontier for games preservation. If it's not on Steam or GOG, it may be the only feasible way to experience a game.

I believe "abandonware" is the correct term

And because Valve made it clear that purchasing doesn't provide ownership then piracy can't be theft.

I’m sure a judge will agree with you.

I'm sure pretty much every judge would?

It's copyright infringement, not theft. The media industries just want to guilt trip consumers into thinking it's theft, but it's not. Neither legally nor actually.

I'm sure someone pirating for personal use will ever encounter a judge.

Pounds of sarcasm, in case this wasn't clear.

I don't think it matters if the judge agrees with me.

Cases will be brought before judges based on money. Big pirates that are somehow making money doing it will be brought in front of a judge and some love will impact them.

Anybody hypothetically pirating one steam game to play for themselves because they felt alienated by Steam isn't going to be dragged in a judge.

Getting most of those games on Steam literally gives you the ROMs. DRM free and usable in any emulator.

It's likely that at least for the Sega Genesis games Sega will throw out a new collection. The current one is pretty old and has issues, especially with latency.

While this comment is well intentioned, you do not own the ROMs. Using the example of the SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics [0] Steam listing the EULA states:

> THIS SOFTWARE IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD.

> 3. NO RIGHT TO OWNERSHIP YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU SHALL HAVE NO OWNERSHIP

If you look at the Steam store page there are numerous reviews from people who bought the collection only to have Sega remove some of the ROMs from the collection making it impossible to play these games that you paid for.

[0] https://store.steampowered.com/app/34270/SEGA_Mega_Drive_and...

Yes, technically they are licensed. But what software is owned and not licensed? This is not new. Unlike most collections the ROMs here are out in open and easy to access.

The reviews here are complaining about Sega delisting the collection. People that already have it will still be able to play them and redownload them off Steam. They have already delisted some of them (e.g., Sonic 3) and they're still available to those that got them before they were removed.

> While this comment is well intentioned, you do not own the ROMs.

Well, maybe. Sega might claim that they have only licensed them and you don't own them; a court might disagree, given the big "buy" button and the consideration paid for them.

> Sega might claim that they have only licensed them and you don't own them; a court might disagree, given the big "buy" button and the consideration paid for them.

I'd really like to believe that is the case, but I think we've already seen that is generally not true based on other digital marketplaces (e.g. Kindle books, iTunes media, etc.)

But specifically regarding Steam... this was just last month[0][1]

> Valve is now explicitly disclosing that you don’t own the games you buy from its Steam online store. The company has added a note on the payment checkout screen stating that “a purchase of a digital product grants a license for the product on Steam,” as reported earlier by Engadget.

> ...

> Why? Probably, a new law. California has a law going into effect next year that’ll require digital storefronts like Valve’s Steam platform to clearly say that you’re only purchasing a license for your digital media because some companies like Ubisoft and PlayStation were removing digital purchases from users’ libraries, keeping them from playing games like The Crew or watching their old Discovery shows.

[0] https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/11/24267864/steam-buy-purch...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41809193

That sort of case is precisely why I think someone might be able to make that kind of argument, especially in more consumer-friendly jurisdictions.

Steam only gives you a license, you don't own anything

Maybe, but SEGA seems to muddy their own case as their official support FAQ section [1] states: "Will I still be able to play the SEGA Classics games? Absolutely! All SEGA Classics games and bundles you own will remain in your library, ready to be downloaded and played at any time."

Note the "you own" here that is in dispute with the Steam user agreement.

[1] https://support.sega.com/hc/en-gb/articles/29776767664145-SE...

Do not buy Crazy Taxi from Steam. It has broken input (analogue controls are really digital without fan patches), and does not play the original audio.

Not playing the original audio is a crime. First thing I think about when someone names that game is The Offspring. "Ya ya ya ya ya"

I wonder if that is why Governor Tim Walz was playing the game so weird. At certain points you could tell that he was struggling with the XBOX controller

[1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGZa1Mgb-GE

I thought he would play with the mod... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0SIIjnNe_I

There are unofficial patches to restore the original music.

If you don't remove old good content nobody will buy the new bad content.

Sounds cynical and it's certainly a practice which isn't exactly widespread, yet.

It's certainly widespread for movie remakes. Old classics usually cost money, or a specialty streaming service. New remakes of the same classics are usually on prime or netflix.

Remakes are often bad because they're phoned in too ,to capitalize on the success of the orginal.

I'm sure if as much effort was put into a remake as an original then the remake would be great.

There are some examples of remakes that are great. Frequently, these become the "classics" and people forget about the original. A canonical example is John Carpenter's "The Thing" in 1982, which was a remake of a somewhat crappy 50s movie and is now a sci-fi horror classic. Another good example is "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" from 1978, starring Donald Sutherland. It was a remake of a 1950s movie too, though in that case the 50s movie was actually pretty good, but the 1978 one was scarier.

I can't think of any good remakes from after the year 2000.

Does the Coen Brothers 2010 version of True Grit count? I think it was better than the 1969 John Wayne version, but maybe it doesn't count as a "remake" because both were based on Charles Portis' novel.

I haven't seen either, but I do think it counts as a remake when they're based on the same novel.

Not a movie, but Battlestar Galactica was a great remake.

It was fantastic for about 2.5 seasons, and then jumped the shark. It really, really showed the importance of not just letting the writers make shit up with each new season, similar to LOST.

I've seen a few old games get their price increased before a new game for the franchise is going to be released.

Activision still charges $60 for Call Of Duty: Black Ops II. And $50 for the DLC. That game came out 12 years ago.

For what it's worth, the existing Genesis/Mega Drive titles here generally contain the actual ROM. It's generally the cheapest way to get a legitimate copy of these games for use in an emulator. I realize a lot of folks probably don't care about that, but it's a good option for those that do.

     But after that, for reasons that Sega does not make explicit, they will be "delisted and unavailable."

I really don't understand this move. The hard work is putting the games on Steam and making sure they work. Assets, testing, integration. Why take them away?

Anyway I'll never use Steam to buy a game anymore anyway, because you're only really buying a license to rent a game.

> Anyway I'll never use Steam to buy a game anymore anyway, because you're only really buying a license to rent a game.

Hasn't that always been the case for all games purchase for a while now?

I believe GOG still sells a lot of things DRM free.

They are DRM free, but you are still only buying a license to the game which can likely be revoked under the terms of that agreement.

But GOG offers offline executable installers, so from a practical perspective even if your license was revoked, they'd have no way of preventing you from playing the game (assuming that you had downloaded the installer, of course).

The even joked about it after Steam added the checkout banner: https://x.com/GOGcom/status/1844752098145038435

The license doesn't matter if you can have the DRM-free installer on your harddrive forever. They sold it to me (and called it a "purchase"), I downloaded it, who cares about the license, it's mine now.

Offline installer that doesn't ring home.

so does steam. it depends on the publisher

But is there a way to actually back up an installer (or the installed game) in a way that lets you run it on a different computer after, say, your Steam account has been closed for whatever reason?

On macOS an app bundle is usually self-contained, so if there is no DRM backups are simple enough; for Windows, it's usually not that easy, I believe.

For some games the executable just works outside of Steam, you can copy the whole directory from steamapps to elsewhere. I recall Starbound being like this during beta, good for last-minute local multiplayer at a LAN party.

Those games aside, I think goldberg steam emulator is used for ripping/cracking/sharing games. I don't wanna say too much as I don't know the process well, but I think sometimes you remove or replace a certain steam file and that's the main thing needed. This doesn't get you past extra layers of DRM like Denuvo, of course. I recommend not buying any such games. You can follow a Steam curator that checks games for Denuvo and then it will display if they have it (or used to and removed it, like Soulcalibur VI) on the store page if you're logged in.

https://store.steampowered.com/curator/26095454-Denuvo-Games...

Everything on GoG is guaranteed to be DRM-free (see occasional scandal when something sneaks through that has it)

no all, but any that make you sign a EULA before you can start the game, yes.

That was my point yes.

> Anyway I'll never use Steam to buy a game anymore anyway, because you're only really buying a license to rent a game.

I wonder if you misinterpreted the article? The games are not being taken away from people who purchased them. They will simply no longer be offered for sale.

I know the DRM exists, but to the extent that you trust the word of Steam and Gabe Newell, they have said they will release a patch undoing all Steam DRM if Steam ever goes out of business.

It's easy for them to have that intention, but then the realities of operating from bankruptcy court or receivership or being assimilated by Microsoft or Sony could be much different.

I choose to only buy stuff for like $8 and under where I can expect to get my money's worth of gameplay in a short time frame and so not have to worry about any long term sunsetting. That's a reasonable middle ground between fully trusting the platform or fully abhorring it.

Honestly I doubt that, and not because I distrust steam and gabe newell, in my books steam is one of the good guys, in an industry filled with nickle and dime rent seeking, steam provides a reliable, unobtrusive service. Personally I think their margin is grossly high. And I too hate how many of my games are locked up depending on the benevolence of a corporation. But steam has thus far proved to be a very useful service, mainly by not fucking up.

I just don't think it could happen because when your business is going down in flames, the last thing on your mind is giving away the keys to the kingdom. The normal death spiral is. The business is unable to make a profit anymore and will have to be closed down. however it still has a reputation. somebody will buy the business with the expectation they will be able to make the changes needed to make a profit. these changes are vile, trying to extract any money they can from the corpse. it then gets sold to the next sucker. who repeats the whole repugnant farce. It is almost never a clean death.

If the developer offers the game on itch.io, buy it from there.

If the developer offers the game on GOG, buy it from there.

Otherwise, check if there's currently a crack for the steamworks version of the game. If so, buy it on Steam. Don't actually download or use the crack; just check it exists before buying.

Otherwise, don't buy the game.

The recent indie release, Kitsune Tails, was available on Steam and Itch, but the creator actually made clear on social media that Steam reviews were really important and that they were only counted properly if the game was bought on Steam and not added there via a key. They were really pushing to hit Overwhelmingly Positive shortly after release, I don't know if that was the only reason, though.

Also in your advice where you recommend verifying a crack exists before buying on Steam, isn't it similar to see if a GOG (drm-free) version exists that you could fetch at no cost later if needed, and then buy on Steam?

If the game developer wants to follow a particular marketing plan, e.g. they've discovered they get more sales when there's a lot of positive Steam reviews, then of course you can help with that. If retweets, or Reddit posts, or Facebook likes or lets-play Twitch streams, or whatever else sells copies, and you're in a position to do that...

However, when buying on Steam, you need to watch out for your own interests too. Will you still be able to play this game in 20 years? Checking there is a crack is your insurance policy.

If you can buy it DRM-free on itch.io or GOG, do that instead. Steam store pages will list if there is any _third-party_ DRM, but won't list if the developer is using Steamworks DRM, so generally you have to assume it is (unless the developer assures otherwise, or it's on https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_big_list_of_DRM-free_g... )

I can't recall any cases where a game delisted from Steam was removed from the libraries of people who already bought them.

Meanwhile, Oxenfree was removed from itch.io, including making it unavailable for download even for those who have purchased the game. This is unprecedented as far as I know.

Presumably, itch unlike Steam doesn't have the leverage or lawyers on staff to enforce what's a blatant violation both the consumer rights and itch.io's own terms of service.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/9/24239877/if-bought-oxenfre...

The reason I suggest itch.io is because they take ~10% cut, compared to Valve and CD Projekt's 30% cut. The developer gets more money.

But if itch.io, GOG or Steam shut down tomorrow... I would not expect to be able to download from them at all. You should install the games on your computer, storing them at your own cost. And if the game is DRM-free, you can still play the game!

Steam is of course very nice in serving re-installs to customers of no-longer-purchasable games. But you can expect that some day it will end. That's why the fight is to have no DRM... to ensure publishers can't "take away" a game already on your computer, or a book already on your e-reader. It's not to demand storefronts let you download your stuff from their servers indefinitely, which is nice but ruinously expensive for them.

The "license to rent a game" deal is a general grievance about Steam that is not related to the article.

Also it is one that can be extended to many other services offering digital goods for """purchase""", like iTunes

> I know the DRM exists, but to the extent that you trust the word of Steam and Gabe Newell, they have said they will release a patch undoing all Steam DRM if Steam ever goes out of business.

I do not believe this was said by Gabe. It was also made years ago before Steam was the size it has become. At the time, Steam might have only been losing Valve first party titles.

All of the games on this list comprise the "Buy SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics" and "Dreamcast Collection" bundles. My guess is that part of it is the emulation layer - They use a shared backend and launcher for the Genesis games. Maybe they couldn't come to a license agreement with the emulation developer?

The standouts for me are Jet Set Radio and NiGHTS into Dreams. The former is well known for it's soundtrack; Ain't nothing but a funky beat. The latter is unique and doesn't quite work, but there's something compelling anyway about the dreamlike visuals and weird floaty gameplay. Crazy Taxi is one I loved as a kid, but it's a bad port - an "Enhanced Remake" that ruined the game by leaving out it's killer soundtrack and breaking the controls.

https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/10143/SEGA_Mega_Drive_... https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/14082/Dreamcast_Collec...

My guess is licensing, they probably sold exclusive licenses, and part of that is delisting on other platforms.

Probably this; I wonder if they're all going to Epic for a few years before coming back.

Or they think they can make more selling some sort of bundle.

I dont think so, they own a lot of these games and IP's outright, and most don't have licensed content. I think they're doing the same thing they did when they removed the Sonic titles from the collection a few years ago -- they're preparing some new title for those IPs, and some of these games will come with, so people will double dip under the guise of cleaning up their offerings

I looked into it a bit and if you want to be ready get this bundle:

https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/10143/SEGA_Mega_Drive_...

And this one:

https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/14082/Dreamcast_Collec...

These contain every game about to be delisted.

Each available for around 35 USD/EUR RRP

The Steam Autumn Sale might be the last opportunity to get these on discount.

I already own the bundle on Steam, but I wish they would just sell the ROM files instead and tell you "just use it in any emulator."

Not sure about other platforms but at least on the Switch this doesn’t affect the Sega Ages line of games. As far as I can tell, this is specially the line of releases they titled Sega Classics, but the Sega Ages line are typically the best in class individual titles put together by M2.

I don't recognize most of these but I do recognize Golden Axe.

Did they actually port the games to PC? Or did they link them with some kind of emulator layer?

The genesis games are emulated. Stuff like Crazy Taxi are ported.

(from the xbox version, which was essentially a PC using DirectX anyway, so fairly minimal work)

All four posts in this thread have obviously not read the article in full. Sega does this allegedly because they want to sell some kind of classics in stores. So while they have this sale, they delist the steam games.

The article's author doesn't know the reason. They repeat speculation that the same games will be re-released in new bundles.

I mean, bold of you to assume that delisting a game from steam would stop me from acquiring it, if I wanted to, but ok.

I don't think this is about you.

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