Ask HN: Do you consider working for Meta an ethical issue? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Do you consider working for Meta an ethical issue?

15 pointsDesafinado19 comments

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Meta (Facebook) is able to attract some of our best and brightest software developers with exorbitantly high salaries. But due to no fault of their own the company hasn't really been able to rein in their less ethical decision making.

I'm going to guess that almost everyone working for Meta, including Zuckerberg, wants the company to operate ethically, but because of the profit imperative and high performance culture there it's just not really possible due to social dynamics. The only way to rein in Meta is through government regulation.

All of this being said I consider working for Meta to be an ethical issue. Developers who accept a high salary in exchange for contributing to Meta products are effectively working for a modern Tobacco company, and are on the wrong side of history.

What do you think?

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I agree with your position: working for Meta means selling out your moral values.

The argument I see for doing so is usually, "If I don't, someone else will, so I might as well be the one making money off it." I think people tell themselves that as a way to avoid thinking about the ethics of what they're doing. What they're actually saying is, "I value money more than upholding these moral principles"

But I disagree that everyone working there wants to operate ethically and I strongly disagree with the sentiment that the company's moral failings are "due to no fault of their own" because it enables people to be silently complicit. Operating ethically requires individuals to take action to uphold their values.

They tried to hire me a few times. I would not do it. They have some very intelligent people including several kernel developers which is not surprising given all the projects they work on. The reason I would never work there is the dystopian vibe I got walking around their campus. The younger people could not understand what I meant, all they saw was free food and an extension to their college life. I saw a corporation that tried every way it could to incentivize staying, living and breathing work. It felt almost like a cult. The older crowd and a handful of the younger crowd would acknowledge with a head nod but did not want to talk about it. I do not blame anyone for working there. People need to feed themselves and start somewhere. It probably looks good on a CV and would have good name recognition.

So I guess that does not really answer your question about ethics. I do not have ethical issues with what I perceive to be a dystopian cult of sorts. It's just not for me. Now if you asked me if I would have participated in their profiling and manipulation of people such as the Cambridge Analytica [1] scandal, that would be both ethics and legal issues for me given it was voter manipulation. But otherwise I have worked for companies that have direct ties to many 3 letter agencies and have no issues with that.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica

Many companies in big tech make insane profits from the surveillance-advertising complex. Is Meta especially bad in this regard? Google, Apple, etc. all do their own tracking and advertising, not to mention TikTok, Reddit, etc.

Everyone has their price, I guess. History won't remember any individual FAANG peon anyway, but for that peon, that salary could mean early retirement, a good life for their kids and grandkids, and maybe even generational wealth. I wouldn't do it personally, but it's a tradeoff many would accept.

Seems like the "wrong side" of history is winning anyway, and likely the big US antitrust efforts will all be shut down soon, so today's ethics will probably just seem like a fringe has-been in a decade or so. For any individual developer, they can choose to be a Stallman-like figure and crusade against all the woes of commercialization... and probably get nowhere... or they and their family and their kids can all be rich and live comfortably, regardless of where history goes. It's the old "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality, I guess. Not a hard choice for many.

Most of the world doesn't really care about this stuff. They struggle just to put food on the table. For immigrants coming from worse regimes or weaker economies, especially, FAANG money can be transformative. For every upstanding, ethical developer who refuses a job, there will be 10,000 waiting in line after them.

I have no problem working for a company like meta for the reasons you mentioned. I wouldn't for other reasons. Choosing employment by ethical standards are fine but if you eliminate facebook for that reason you remove most companies. Google, Amazon, Microsoft, the government.. but also sectors like finance or gaming (including poker), crypto and many small businesses who get money from shady sources or have to do grey area activities to break out of the pack.

I'd start with what places are ethical to work at for you?

I too consider working for Meta to be an ethical issue. In fact, I never considered any of their career opportunities. I wonder what the general sentiment is, not only toward Meta but also similar companies (Bytedance/TikTok?).

I sat in on an early planning session (in about '04 or so in the bay area) and was asked if it mattered to me if Mr. –––––––– was an early investor. I'd never heard the name before so I said, it wouldn't matter to me.

A few years later I heard of Mr. –––––––––––. He's one of the legendary bad guys.

Whatever evil FB is involved in was baked in from the start.

I'm trying to find the name of Mr. ____________. Would love if there was a name attached to your comment. Any takers?

A quick google of "early investors of Facebook" will give you a name that fits (including the space)...

Another hint: he's going to be one of the oligarchs that will reign over the USA soon.

Ah, the space is key. Thought my count was off.

I'm guessing they're taking about Peter Thiel. Not sure why they're obfuscating it

One exact name doesn't matter. And not all investors will be known or listed. Using fronts, etc.

I think people need to come down from their moral high horses when it comes to employers. Nearly every large company out there has likely done or is currently doing something that you may disagree with. Working a job requires you to do what your employer hired you for, not to critique every element of their business in every country they operate on the planet.

Sure if you feel that strongly about something, like social media, and you throw up in your mouth at the thought of contributing to that, then don't work there.

I worked in large corporations before, I generally have problems with companies that size. I don't think it matters if they are Tech or Pharma or Insurance or Banks, they will exhibit a lot of the same internal behaviors that I want to avoid - internal politics, people that do nothing, people that wield their title at you, random layoffs, etc. I didn't enjoy working at a giant corporation but if I need to in order to feed my family, pay rent, get to retirement, etc. I will.

I totally do, yes.

> Developers who accept a high salary in exchange for contributing to Meta products are effectively working for a modern Tobacco company, and are on the wrong side of history.

This is a great way of putting it.

Capitalism is unethical. Name a public company that gives a flying fart about what is ethical beyond the bare minimum. The ones that can afford the fines don’t even bother with the minimum.

No I just need a job.

This is just bullshit virtue signalling.

Every decision you make is an ethical issue where you are probably on the wrong side, if you are fortunate enough to be making this post.

Who made the iPhone/Macbook your typing on? Probably some extremely underpaid stressed factory worker that makes next to nothing per day.

Who made the clothes you wear? Probably some uneducated child slave in an impoverished country.

How about the coffee beans in the Starbucks coffee you drink? What were the working conditions the beans were harvested under?

Do you watch/consume porn? Is that ethical? Do you know if the actors/actresses have given consent or not?

What about the meat you eat? Do you think eating animals is ethical?

Mostly every part of modern fortunate living is unethical.

Not that I don't think Meta isn't also horrible

FWIW, I'm a vegetarian and drink fair trade coffee. Some of these decisions aren't things from which we have a choice. I need clothes / a computer, I can't function without them. I can function without working for Meta.

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