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Comment by gU9x3u8XmQNG | Hacker News Reader

Given the lack of interest in the industry “self” regulating, and/or taking responsibility of, the content; what other option is there. It seems there’s little interest globally.

With my direct and indirect experiences of social media; I strongly support this.

That said; how does a young individual get updates to public transport outages that are only available via twitter/x, or read the menu of the local cafe that is only posted on Facebook?

I do worry about the implementation, especially if government owned. The government has, in the past, said one thing and executed another. (DNS metadata collection for ISP’s, for example) Whilst I have nothing to hide, and am happy to be entirely transparent with them; I can appreciate, respect, and understand the hesitation.

And, if government owned; how long until it’s “privatised”.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

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There is zero willingness by Meta and others to even follow through on their own guidelines or government requirements. I think it's time a hard decision was made about the harms spread by these networks.

I am definitely not alone in submitting a report about a fake profile only for the system to nearly automatically deny it. Even when the real person being impersonated is literally sitting next to me asking me to help them submit the report. Even illegal drug dealers operate in the open on Meta properties with no recourse whatsoever.

The process of eliminating a huge swath of fake and harmful content could be implemented trivially, we have so many ways of muting or limiting the spread of information which is unvetted, dubious origin, has outlier qualities and so on - yet nothing of the type is engaged by these networks to obvious harmful consequences.

Thanks for your reply.

On a similar note; a family member was being exposed to intense and violent content over Facebook. There was no block, ignore, or report feature on the content exposed. The only option we could find, after researching it; was a “show less of this content” setting buried deep in the Facebook web app (not even available on the standalone app).

Honestly; if the account owner has little option to manage the content they are exposed to.. ugh!

Your experience brings about an excellent point (and something that is coming up in discussion frequently with the proposed under-16 social media ban in Australia - a ban that is being supported by all sides of their government.)

That point is that even the user making positive attempts to moderate their experience on the platform is futile and in my experience largely ignored. (I actually have the experience that it then shows me more of that content.)

Social media platforms are keenly aware that anger and fear drive significantly more engagement and whistleblowers have detailed how Facebook prioritises this content, shovelling it to users specifically to drive usage (and with that ad value and ad impressions).(1)(2)(3)(4)

There is a deep commercial incentive for social media networks to act against their own "community guidelines" and legislation. I applaud Australia's direction for recognising that these networks are not acting in good faith and introducing measures that address the proven harms.(5)

1. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-whistleblower-frances-...

2. https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture...

3. https://time.com/6103645/facebook-whistleblower-frances-haug...

4. https://time.com/6097704/facebook-instagram-wall-street-jour...

5. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-facebook-files-11631713039

I have successfully and completely moderated my facebook usage, in the same manner as I do with any site that doesn't respect my wishes.

I simply don't use it.

I didn't need any government "assistance".

You don’t need to have a Facebook profile to be impersonated on Facebook.

That's actually a good point.

Personally I would like them to regulate what kind of info the algorithms are allowed to use to profile people. No super-focused targeting.

> Given the lack of interest in the industry “self” regulating, and/or taking responsibility of, the content; what other option is there

This is surely an important point. People often make the argument of individual freedom. But at the same time, evidently we are excellent at using those freedoms to screw ourselves over. Globally, we've been speedrunning fucking up society in critical areas for decades now. Could the solution be less freedom? Is there some hidden hook whereby more freedom can solve everything?

History should have taught us that the answer is no, the solution is not less freedom.

It does make me want to watch the movie Equilibrium though.

> Globally, we've been speedrunning fucking up society in critical areas for decades now.

Social media has also been enormously beneficial in terms of crippling the propaganda power of centralized, commercial media. It would be very bad to simply return to the authority of editorial boards. What we actually need is to grapple with the social responsibility that comes with this power, which could take decades or even centuries of living with the internet to wrangle.

Especially now that we know how little of the world traditional newsrooms are even willing to cover, let alone fund coverage of.

Besides, the cat is out of the bag.

>Social media has also been enormously beneficial in terms of crippling the propaganda power of centralized, commercial media

This is just plain wrong. Social media has moved the propaganda power to foreign hostile nations on a golden platter. That is not an improvement.

> Social media has moved the propaganda power to foreign hostile nations on a golden platter.

I mean it's not like the power of domestic propaganda has waned, it's just in a war for the attention of the ignorant with other interests (most of which aren't foreign powers, by the way, but simply capital). Social media that enabled independent coverage and discussion is still there for the adults in the room and it would be a true loss for any society to sweep the rug out from under the people who care to look beyond the for-profit newsroom (i.e., almost all media that's readily accessible at least to americans).

> Social media that enabled independent coverage and discussion is still there for the adults in the room

I'm not actually sure that's true. The only reliable sources on social media (in the sense of 'usually not horribly wrong') are actually traditional media companies like bbc, guardian. Perhaps I'm holding it wrong, but finding other trustworthy sources is actually really hard...

> Perhaps I'm holding it wrong, but finding other trustworthy sources is actually really hard...

Yes, it is hard, but there's no such thing as easy trust, and you should always be questioning whether such trust is actually earned or just comforting.

I don't think the "bbc" or "the guardian" are very trustworthy, either (at least by themselves)—both have obvious polemics and blind spots. They also only cover a very narrow, western-centric view of the world, leaving you with piss-poor understanding of world politics. I'm not saying you should ignore them but they're still propaganda.

Substack is invaluable; blogs are invaluable; twitter, as miserable as it is, is invaluable (for direct access to reporters sans newsrooms, if nothing else).

They are not propaganda in the classic sense since that requires intent and a goal.

Sorry, why do you believe these entities have no intent nor goals? That's a very odd assumption to make.

As always, I highly recommend Manufacturing Consent, which well illustrates how to examine financial interests to determine the above. Propaganda does not require conspiracy nor explicit instructions on what messages to convey; it only requires a class of people produced from the same environment, aiming to reproduce that same environment.

> illustrates how to examine financial interests to determine the above

On this basis we have to exclude all "citizen jounalists" as unreliable click bait at best or just plain manufactured news.

This is especially untrue today, when reaching a wide, relevant audience requires significant resources, including financial -- either outright paying for sponsored places at the top of people's timelines, or paying for the expertise that delivers the right content to the right people in the right formulation.

There's obviously still room for exceptions (especially in small niches, where individual content creators can still make a dent) but this isn't 2006 anymore. The vast majority of the content that covers social, political or economic issues on social media platforms is paid for and pushed by directly interested parties (political parties, companies etc.) with ample funding and is often part of campaigns that span both social media and traditional media. The "indie" outlook is part of the packaging.

The terms of the "paid by" disclaimers are sufficiently generous that they're all but useless once you get past things like goodie bags for influencers or regulated campaign ads.

If there is one single reliable fact that I wish was repeated more often in this kind of discussions is that news papers and media companies will cater to the demographics of their core audience. Left, right, center, young, old, male, female, city, rural, and so on. Consumers will self select towards publishers which they agree with, and publishers will cater to that which more reliable generates revenue and views.

Meta studies often illustrate this well, but one can also do this on an individual level. Seek up reliable sources which opposing core audience compared to ones own demographic and it becomes obvious how horribly wrong they seem with miss leading statements, omissions, weasel words, emotional labeled meanings, mixed with with straight falsehoods.

The only trustworthy sources are multiple sources, and even then we are likely to fail since we are going to be searching for confirmation of what we already believe to be true. Social media do not usually help here, through Wikipedia seems to be a fairly good starting point (especially the talk pages are good to see where different reliable sources disagrees the most).

There is some truth to this crippling power and I don’t doubt that there are examples of it. But social media has been the vector for massive amounts of propaganda. Sorry to say I’d rather just have the commercialized editorial boards. At least that’s a single problem that can be reigned in. Instead we have the worst of both worlds - commercialized media plus a million-headed hydra spewing falsehoods and nonsense.

> At least that’s a single problem that can be reigned in.

I don't understand what you're referring to. How do you recommend reigning in a newsroom? Especially one beholden to owners and advertisers with interests directly opposed to those of readers? How do you as a consumer opt out of the financial barriers to quality reporting? The only answer is the peer to peer nature of social media and the internet.

Perhaps what you're missing is that traditional media has zero incentive to highlight the positives of direct communication between disparate populations, creating farcically-negative hysteria about the dangers of worldviews not beholden to giant interests (yes, including domestic and foreign state powers, but also individual entities with massive capital to throw around).

>Sorry to say I’d rather just have the commercialized editorial boards

Not me. Having a solid experience living in some far-from-democracy countries, I can state with all certainty that social platforms opened at least a crack to alternative opinions for a lot of people. Yes, they are full of propaganda, but I think they still provide more pluralistic picture compared to the world where old media ruled supreme. The real problem with those platforms is not "misinformation" (which will be everywhere anyway), buy addictiveness, and the fact they incentivize aggressive tribalism

> Besides, the cat is out of the bag.

That's what I was thinking too.

I am not sure what the value is in severely regulating half a dozen or so companies when work arounds are so easily to implement. Maybe as a stop gap solution while we figure out long term solutions (which the government has a horrible track record on).

But for any long term solution we would first have to define what social media even is, and in a way that's testable in court. Don't run away from the hard things, but wow, that's hard.

Not sure I agree with this entirely, especially the points on media. And I don’t think it’s been beneficial at all.

I’d argue the problem here is more so quality, and can really only be solved with regulation. I want to read news, not a blog and opinion.

There should be clear and concise standards media outlets need to adhere to, but as per my suggestion in regards to social media; will not self regulate.

Additionally; there is no accountability and responsibility.

I would argue that the only benefit that has been made is making this more apparent and obvious.. and hopefully for the better.

Social media could include everything including forums and websites were people can leave a comment.

I know that some people here on HN want to go full Unabomber and live in the woods but I kind of like the internet.

> There should be clear and concise standards media outlets need to adhere to

Yea that's be great but it's never going to happen, and if it did happen you wouldn't like it. It's like people wanting unbiased journalism: that only exists in the minds of the people who think there are only two serious opinions to have on any topic.

It does happen - sometimes get we unbiased journalism. Just not from 'professional' journalists.

In response to an article posted in the global news thread on reddit, someone who lives there and actually has local knowledge and context can click 'reply' and explain what's actually going on and contradict/correct what the clickbaity sensationalist mass media article contains.

For example, I live here, the government is passing trying to pass said law that they can't control the implementation of. It's also seen by some as a surveillance state move under the guise of "won't someone think of the children". Under the proposed rules, theoretically people < 16 won't even be allowed to text one another.

More in depth/informative article from a local source, not Reuters:

[1] https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/news/politics/australian-poli...

That link seems like the opposite of unbiased journalism, and also the title quotes someone as having called it a ‘deeply flawed plan’ but upon closer inspection, seems to be quoting the opinion of the author themself!.

At a fundamental aspect, that's what journalism is though - some individual noticing something and writing down what they percieved, its always biased. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

The linked article is way more informative and in depth compared to the link in the original HN post.

The linked post seems to spend all its time advocating for one position without taking even a moment, much less equal time, to even explain the other position.

WTF is people's obsession with the 'other position'. Sometimes there is no other position. It's just people complaining that someones opinion doesn't align with theirs.

An apple tree has 2 apples on it. It's a fact. There is no 'other position'. So sick of narrow-minded idiots/bigots. The article I linked to has way more factual information than the Reuters one.

The government is trying to legislate something it can't control. The whole situation is stupid.

These are also facts:

- The post in question is about legislation which has opinions on at least 2 sides: for it or against it.

- The post in question openly advocated for 1 of the sides while effectively ignoring the others. It's not more informative, it's just someone announcing a lot of their opinions. Their opinions aren't additional information, and thus are not informative.

- Someone disagreeing with you doesn't make them obsessed or narrow-minded or a bigot.

> The government is trying to legislate something it can't control

This suggests that you consider unbiased journalism to be journalism which agrees with you. That's the outside perspective from someone who, unlike you, doesn't feel one way or the other on the legislation in question (it doesn't affect me).

Your point is very valid. I know I would certainly have less awareness of global topics if social media didn't exist (and I don't even use it that much). Social media is definitely contributing to mental health issues too. Do you think social media is net positive? Or do you think there is an alternative method by which the negative effect can be mitigated?

> Do you think social media is net positive? Or do you think there is an alternative method by which the negative effect can be mitigated?

I think we're stuck with it no matter what so we better develop better ways to deal with its existence regardless.

>That said; how does a young individual get updates to public transport outages that are only available via twitter/x, or read the menu of the local cafe that is only posted on Facebook?

If such regulations come in to effect, I think those business / institutions will adapt (eventually) to cater to communicating via additional channels.

> how does a young individual get updates to public transport outages that are only available via twitter/x, or read the menu of the local cafe that is only posted on Facebook?

Solutions will appear naturally to fill the gaps. This is not rocket science.

Agree. Like, local cafe, don't do that.

And indeed, solutions have already appeared: RSS

> That said; how does a young individual get updates to public transport outages that are only available via twitter/x, or read the menu of the local cafe that is only posted on Facebook?

Probably in a similar way to how they did prior to 2010

Those methods have gone. My local bus stop timetable is just a QR code now.

Those methods have improved, in some places. Some (should be all) bus stops in our area have realtime info displays of schedules, weather, news - and of course, Ads.

> I do worry about the implementation

The government does not own the implementation.

As mentioned in another comment, simply making this illegal would create a significant incentive for soc media companies to implement the solution.

The onus is on them to respect the law.

They've been slapped in the face in EU court enough now that they'd think about it seriously.

> That said; how does a young individual get updates to public transport outages that are only available via twitter/x, or read the menu of the local cafe that is only posted on Facebook?

I have never needed either of these so maybe those kids will manage too?

And especially in the public transport case that information should really be made available outside of private platforms in any case.

I need these multiple times every day, so maybe not. And this information simply isn't available elsewhere, regardless of what we think about it - in many cases it's not official but crowd sourced in a FB group, it's not a matter of simply publishing news articles on a different site.

I don't think this is a practical solution. And it does not solve the underlying issue, which is the attention economy.

Here's a better solution option that is easier to implement; even adults can benefit, and I think it solves some of the problems:

1. Have an easy option to turn off feeds and enforce for non-adults. This would apply not just to meta, twitter, but also to Youtube, LinkedIn, etc.

2. Disable like display. The like counts are what hooks people and gives the dopamine kick. Add the ability to hide it and not show for under 18 easily.

3. Social and news sites should not be allowed to send notifications, period. Not on phones or browsers, at least not for those under 18.

Something along these lines would improve social media for everyone, not just kids. Parents' mental health affects kids the same. So blocking it just for kids only goes so far.

Thanks for your reply.

I think you have valid points, but as noted; the industry has no interest in any form of regulation or responsibility.

I don’t see any alternative.

Ah "taking responsibility for content", that classic weasel phrase for "Do what I specifically want or else." While disregarding the sheer difficulty of moderation at scale. They want a return to a "broadcast" information model and just refuse to admit it.

The law could force a "for kids" version like youtube, and businesses would automatically start there unless they were unsuitable.

I think Kids YouTube is a great example of how Kids social media is as bad or worse than just normal social media.

in what ways? I'm not familiar with the details myself, other than you can't comment.

"The spying industry isn't spying on people enough, so the government has no choice but to force them to spy harder"

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