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Comment by ozgrakkurt | Hacker News Reader

As a foreigner, it seems like both sides are super extremely marginalised. Both sides believe everything will be done and there will be a big change if the other side wins. Reality is really not that radical, people are being lit up by propoganda. Saying this as a Turkish person, this has been happening in our country almost since I was born and it destroyed politics, normalisation and being calm is much better than sensationalising everything. Imho biggest issues are related to economics, like housing, like dark money in elections. Meaningless topics are sensationalised to marginalise people and unfortunately it works every time. Politics shouldn’t be right vs left, it should be rich vs middle class vs poor, as economics is the single most impactful aspect on most people’s lives. But politicians want to rile everyone up and put them against each other.

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In the US, it seems the 2011 Occupy Wall Street protests were the last time it was really the people vs. the incumbents. Ever since then all there's been are carefully manufactured conflicts with two sides to choose from, which divide the common class and cause them to argue amongst each other.

There's no reason at all to say Occupy was "real" whereas current conflicts are "manufactured."

I think you have a too rosy image of the ineffective and confused Occupy Wall Street protests.

A lot of whom were paid to be there.

Where did you hear this?

Now now, OP never implied that Occupy Wall Street was effective. :-)

If anything, it points to the stark lack of class consciousness in America that even our biggest protests aren't generally able to create long lasting change.

Personally, I'm reminded of MLK's Poor People Campaign shortly before he got FBI'd. Him and the black panthers were both trying to agitate around this issue in different nonpartisan ways, and they faced extreme prejudice from the state for their trouble.

GME was, in my opinion, what occupy wall street should have been. Much more effective even.

You’ll never beat the house.

tell that to melvin capital

"Nine Investors Instantly Make $16 Billion On GameStop Stock 'Squeeze'"

House still won. That fun narrative just makes people feel like they matter while they get screwed.

https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/sectors/gme-stock-g...

I agree. American has more wealth than ever but it's not distributed. All these issues that serve to distract people from the one thing that will make the biggest difference in their lives: personal economics.

Elites are really good at doing that. Go pay attention to China, Russia, gun control, birth control, diversity, BLM, transgender rights. Meanwhile, I will continue to disproportionately take more of America's wealth.

Very well put. I also live in a country where this kind of politics is everyday politics. Nothing really changes for good.

As another Turkish person, I find the resemblence between this election and the one we had a year ago rather uncanny.

- election between rightist strongman vs. boring guy whose most important selling point is not being the other guy. Also a somewhat controversial candidacy.

- Deep divide between coastal lines vs. the rest; educated and the rest.

- Polls not being confident on either candidate, but the strongman gets mire votes than expected.

Etc. etc. I find it rather strange. (I do enjoy the memes on the Turkish social media though)

So as a Turkish person do you believe the other side is just as bad as Erdogan? Do you think inflation would be just as bad?

>Politics shouldn’t be right vs left, it should be rich vs middle class vs poor, as economics is the single most impactful aspect on most people’s lives.

I agree but ironically this kind of rhetoric is actually how the American left (not the Democrats) were undermined and now Americans are overworked slaves working two or more jobs to live paycheck to paycheck.

"Right vs left" does matter and it was organized left-wing efforts that created the superior life-work balance and healthcare in Europe.

> it was organized left-wing efforts that created the superior life-work balance and healthcare in Europe

The US economy thanks you for getting out of the way, I guess. Americans aren't flying to Europe for healthcare - it's the other way around (if you can afford it). So it may be "superior" in the sense that you're just paying for it your entire life via taxes instead of at the time of service and through employer-subsidized insurance, but it's not "superior" in terms of care.

Politics shouldn't be anyone "vs" anyone else. It should be "how can we fix what's broken, how can we make what's good even better." Trump's message was largely "here's how I will fix the economy" and "here's how I will fix the border." Harris's message was "I'm not Trump" and "I won't change any policy of the Biden administration."

That "if you can afford it" is an important qualifier. I read people struggle to source insulin in the US.

I meant "if, as a foreign national, you can afford to fly to the US for healthcare." Rich Europeans flying to the US for specialized healthcare happens a lot more than rich Americans flying to the EU for specialized healthcare and there's a reason for that.

So what, though? Is the US's advantage in specialized healthcare worth the income inequality and multiple-jobs-just-to-survive culture? I think it's not hard to make an argument that it isn't worth it.

So what's the reason? Or why should I care about the quality of life of the richest?

So when I'm down on my luck I shouldn't be entitled to healthcare?

Living in the UK I'm more than happy to contribute my way in taxes, knowing I'm always looked after regardless of my employment state or wealth.

Additionally we can also pay for American style (private) healthcare, but aren't paying 10x markup on treatment as is the case for America (see Ozempic pricing for example).

American healthcare is one of the worst in the developed world, it shouldn't be celebrated.

> see Ozempic pricing

Let me just take this opportunity to point out that Ozempic is the product of a European company. So you can tell me how American healthcare is absurdly expensive, and how it is much cheaper for you, all while you are the ones making it so damn expensive for us.

Along the same lines, lets hear more about Norway being the shining beacon on the hill, the hero come to save us from climate change, while behind the scenes they finance the entire country by exporting pollution to the rest of the world.

It's really difficult to stomach the hypocritical arrogance of some Europeans. Y'all seem so nice in person, I am hoping a lot of the online rhetoric is just Putin doing his thing.

> Americans aren't flying to Europe for healthcare - it's the other way around (if you can afford it)

Missing in your analysis is health outcomes for the poor. Maybe you don't view them as human?

Hard to imagine how you guys lost an election.

I didn't vote for Kamala. Also I'm sorry you feel bad when people point out your callousness. Think about how people must feel when they die for want of healthcare.

So you don't have a substantive reply? In that case you maybe shouldn't hit the reply link.

My dad is a P.T. and he recounts how after the ACA passed in 2008, his fellow therapists saw tons of people from poor communities going to the doctor for the first time in years. His practice was backed up for a while because there were so many new patients who suddenly had insurance.

Folks missing teeth, folks with broken bones who set improperly, folks who couldn't afford preventative care.

Anecdote: my middle school P.E. teacher took her class down to Juárez Mexico for a "school" mission trip.

She left the group on the way back so she could stop elsewhere and get her teeth cleaned. She said it was a common sentiment for Americans to cross the border for dental work like that.

(That trip was odd for many other reasons ...)

> Trump's message was largely "here's how I will fix the economy" and "here's how I will fix the border."

I read an opinion piece a week or so ago that sounded just like this. It was even more explicit about the point. Paraphrasing, she said 'I know he says really hateful things, but you guys don't get it, at the rallies everyone is giddy and happy, it's such a joyful place to be!'.

The point being that Trump is about joy. Not that his supporters were giddy about his promises of retribution. Totally honest perspective from someone deep in that bubble. I actually appreciate the honesty.

Dems listen to Trump talk about how much he wants to hurt them. They recall that he did exactly that the last time he was president. So of course the democratic candidate says she won't be like Trump. Her supporters don't want to be targeted by their own government again.

That's the thing the dems just don't get. Saying you'll be president for everyone isn't what sells. It's a high minded ideal, like civil rights. Sounds good, inspires a lot of breathless agreement, but most people don't actually care in their hearts, they just care about #1. Appealing to their basest instincts seems wrong, but it's how you win in politics. Stop trying to take the high road that doesn't exist except in your dreams.

What exactly did Trump do to hurt Democrats in his first term?

We're definitely going to be seeing big changes. Trump and the conservatives are in charge. They are going to execute project 2025. They setup all the ground work during Trump's last term.

Ukraine will be lost. Russia will encroach on Europe. The Republicans will staff Judges everywhere and build a stronger conservative justice system.

The rich will dominate even further over the poor and the US will become an extension of the Kremlin.

Trump may also try to set the stage for more dictatorial control. The only good thing about this election is Trump is so old he probably won't try to create a dictatorship since he won't benefit from it.

But have no doubt the democrats will not be taking back control within the next generation or two.

Next president will be a democrat, calling it now.

You are doing the exact type of sensationalising that OP was talking about

I'm not convinced but I got the popcorn ready.

And it's not sensational ism when it's exactly what Trump has promised to do and was in the process of doing when he was fired the first time.

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