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Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

It feels like the solution is, to my privacy ideal dismay, biometrics so that you don't need the passport. You show up at a checkpoint, you're identity proofed on the spot, you get to leave, even if you need to be escorted to the plane by your country's in country diplomatic team.

I can already show up at a US embassy or consulate anywhere in the world and provide them my passport serial number to have a new one cut in an hour if I've lost mine, the gap to close is not big policy wise. Otherwise, we're relying on "magic government credential" which can be held hostage to hold a human hostage. Silliness.

(India maintains the largest biometrics ID system in the world, Aadhaar, containing the records of 1.3B people: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2022/0425...)

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I don’t think this is a technology problem…

Agreed! That is my point. The tech already exists, it is paperwork/policy to fix. Someone must have the will to move the needle for the change to occur.

If countries sending folks to these places are complacent, certainly, the problem scope and level of effort required expands rapidly.

while your idea has value, I think the point being made is that this is an issue with views on human rights and liberty, not technology.

In engaging with enterprise and government stakeholders, I have found that if the technology foundation does not exist, it will be used as an excuse to not execute or improve. So, when an issue is raised, if you have come prepared to show that you can solve the problem with existing primitives or systems in a straightforward manner, it becomes much more challenging to assert the problem cannot be solved.

"We can solve this today; if you're asserting we can't, be prepared to prove it before the audience expands to encourage accountability." Whether that audience is higher up the leadership ladder, adversarial peer stakeholders more motivated to succeed, the general public, regulators/legislators, or journalists is situation specific.

The politics of the situation might make a perceived lack of technological solution a convenient scapegoat, that is true. However, from the HN comments section, suggesting a technological solution to a human rights abuse problem doesn't move the needle, because it is not a lack of technology that has caused the human rights abuse. You are responding to a non-issue that hasn't been presented to you and that you have no authority to solve.

Wrong. It's the opposite.

When there's a will, there's a way.

Unfortunately, in this situation, there's no will.

This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport.

Yes, there are other factors such as bonded labor, indemnities and local laws taking precedence. But this is such an obvious abuse factor, it makes sense to remove it. Of all the ways to do it, whether it's paid lockers and so on – what the parent comment said is still a cheap way.

> This issue is vastly aided and exacerberated by the fact that immediately after unskilled laborers land, the first procedure is their passports are seized, and it's made clear they have to please their employer and work themselves to death to get it back. It changes the entire dynamic straight away: instead of the employer being obliged to keep you, you are now obliged to get back your passport.

Sure, but the local government wants it that way.

They won't be the ones to change it!

But we're talking about the password issuer (e.g. India), right? They have an interest in protecting their citizens and limiting the power of other local governments to abuse them

To exit a country, you need to pass their immigration which may require same physical passport on which person has entered. Also, India/Pakistan wouldn't want to antagonize the Saudis as billions in forex flow via these workers. So, it is the cost of being poor.

No. Saudi Arabia's requirement of a passport to exit the country is what permits this abuse.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...

> A valid passport is required for U.S. citizens to enter or exit the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

I think Saudis are capable of leashing their servants with chains and such if this passport requirement is ever removed. They want to exploit, I think they get off on it.

I think it would be better to legally force all these migrants back into their countries every couple of months just to make sure they're not being kept by force. Fighting abuse costs money, it's expensive, I know but Saudis can afford it.

The corruption runs deep. There are larger amounts of money these workers never see which land in certain hands and they of course want to keep the machinery going.

Until 2021 laborer were unable to leave the country without permission from their employers ...

And even now if you are working in the middle of the desert can you even go to the airport without your employer help ?

It's not a technology problem, but since technology pervades every element of modern society it's an aspect. Passport theft is a significant part of how modern slavery functions internationally, and a technological solution isn't weird to discuss on a technology forum.

> I can already show up at a US embassy or consulate anywhere in the world and provide them my passport serial number to have a new one cut in an hour if I've lost mine

Do you have any sources to confirm this?

???

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...

selectodude's link is canonical imho, but you can also call the Dept. of State Office of Overseas Citizens Services to confirm.

That's not a solution. Those people arrive to the Middle East of their own free will. Everyone in India knows about the abuse, including the labourers and their families. It's just that there are no jobs where they come from, and for all its abuse, the gulf countries pay well. It's desperation to make money that drives them there.

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