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Comment by mobeets | Hacker News Reader

The fact that Pando is a single organism is so confusing to me. I’m guessing there are more forests like Pando that are also a single organism? Is this something unique to this particular species?

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Pretty much all plants have similar abilities to reproduce clonally as a byproduct of how they grow. Normally we don't count the individuals as a collective organism the same way we do Pando though.

I thought the scientific consensus was Pando does not actually reproduce anymore and is shrinking

I've never heard that. The aboveground stems of aspens live just over a century, so Pando would be dead very quickly (in relative terms) if that was true. I see some articles online that new shoots are struggling to survive because of herbivores though.

apparently I had it wrong. The net size is decreasing over time, but new shoots do still emerge and mature into healthy structures

Forest Service says it's showing signs of decline due to "... a lack of regeneration, along with insects and disease."

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/fishlake/home/?cid=STELPRDB53...

You seem to dismiss that Pando is uniquely special. The claim is that Pando is the oldest organism on Earth. Do you disagree? If so, what are some organisms that might be older?

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest-living_organis...

I've not yet seen an explanation of what counts as a single "organism" for these purposes and the estimated ages are all over the place.

My guess at a definition: All parts connected, having the same DNA, and supporting each other by sharing nutrients.

This is true of corals, and they are often considered "colonial" organisms instead of an individual.

That said, I don't think anyone who studies biology is particularly concerned with hard-line definitions, as nature tends to eschew them every chance it has.

I think Pando and corals being considered "modular bodyplans/habits" is perhaps a more useful concept than individual or clone.

I'm not dismissing that Pando is old or interesting. I'm saying that clonal reproduction is not especially uncommon in the plant kingdom and that we typically don't consider the resulting plants part of the same collective organism.

The same type of vegetative reproduction is happening every time a potato or garlic clove is planted, for example. Asparagus is an even closer analogy to Pando.

The roots of Pando are all connected though and a potato plant from a piece definitely isn’t.

> Generally speaking, yes. Each of Pando's branches is connected to the others through a shared root system.

Pando isn't a bunch of individual clones though, it's a single contiguous organism.

What is the dividiing line between single organism and clones with connecting structure, like shared roots?

It seems like a fuzzy gradient to me. Maybe some biologist can share what makes the distinction clear, but I can imagine a gradient ranging from fully distinct autonomous disconnected clones all the way to clearly a single organism that only grows outward into a large sphere.

Clearly Pando is somewhere in the middle of this gradient. What is Pando's position on that gradient and why is "bunch of individual clones" somewhere else? How is another tree sharing a roots not a single individual too?

Super confused here because the distinction seems completely clear to me? Relatively few plants, when mature, will start growing clones up from their roots, but it's a known growth pattern. They're called suckers, and I've never heard them referred to as distinct individuals.

But most plants can be cloned by taking a cutting and giving it continuous water + air and letting it start growing a new root system. I've never heard anybody suggest the cutting is not a new, distinct plant.

Hmmm, could a long generation banana plant be considered ancient? Assuming the line was kept in place for centuries.

Just think of it as the root system - the "trees" are all sprouting from that.

The name Pando adds to the mystery of the organism. If it was called Fish Lake forest or something, it would be hard to draw any attention.

Pando has an almost mythical ring to it

Black Locust can produce sprouts out of its root system, but from what I've read a single organism can cover up to 1ha, and the sprouts become independent eventually, so not exactly the same.

They are also wicked with thorns when young. Someone planted a few in the 70s around here (Pine Bush reserve in Upstate NY), and they won't go away. They thrive in the pine bush and steal from the native environment. Prescribed burns help on the reserve bits, but on the private properties surrounding it is a nightmare. The amount of scars I have from these invasive trees' thorns is nuts.

Sounds like rhizomes. These are not uncommon in plants. Bluegrass lawn for instance spreads this way. But yes I never imagined a similar thing with trees.

I believe the difference is that rhizomes are special structures meant for reproduction, whereas with Pando and other quaking aspens, it's just normal tree roots that pop up near the surface and start growing into trees.

All quaking aspens can reproduce through their roots systems (as well as by seeds); you typically see them as clusters in the forests they reside instead of peppered around like other trees. Pando is unique because it can only reproduce asexually as well as its huge size. Most aspen colonies are not nearly as big.

>Pando is unique because it can only reproduce asexually

Is that true? I've seen it mentioned in non-scientific articles, but have never seen anything scientific saying so. I'm not sure why Pando would be different from any other member of its species.

That also has made me wonder. If these are common but not generally mapped or surveyed, then it'd be likely this is not oldest etc...

Yeah, I've noticed over the years a lot of articles about oldest, tallest, <maximum other dimension> trees and they're always in the US. Strikes me that there's a likely bias there - the biggest results occur where you're doing the most looking

>The fact that Pando is a single organism is so confusing to me.

All of the tree stalks are connected to the same roots, so it's all one big organism.

Japanese knotweed in Europe

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