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Comment by noduerme | Hacker News Reader

I wonder how this translates if the irregularity is by choice. I can certainly see why people working back to back night and day shifts, or otherwise frequently being at a sleep debt that was compensated for later, would die younger.

But as a freelancer, my sleep schedule is more or less my own. I go to sleep when I'm tired and usually try to sleep as long as I want to. Sometimes that's 11pm-10am, sometimes 6am-11am. It can oscillate throughout the week, but I try to average 16 hours of sleep in any given 48 hour period.

Maybe this is incredibly unhealthy, but I've believed for a long time that it's kept me younger and healthier than being forced into a sleep rhythm that isn't what my body wants.

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As someone whose natural sleep cycle seems to be closer to 26-28 hours, and whose preferred sleeping hours in a 24-hour cycle are 6am to 2-3pm... I commend you.

Sincerely, someone forced into a "normal" schedule by kids school start times and, well, everything else too, I suppose.

Hah. I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day. I was going to write that but it seemed like too much to explain. As I go to bed later and later, eventually I find myself awake past sunrise, which is usually the day when I'll intentionally have a short sleep and snap back to an early bedtime that night.

Kids would definitely screw up this aspect of my lifestyle lol. But kids give you immortality, and here I am just wondering if I'm gaining or losing a couple years.

Just as a secondary data point. Without medication I have about a 32:12 hour cycle. Up for at least 30 hours and sleeping for about 12. I can function on 5 but I'm grumpy about it for a while. Always been that way. Completely inverted as well. Up all night and my body tries to convince me to sleep during the day but I'm just not able to for another twelve hours.

I got fired from several jobs because of it. My folks weren't understanding so I genuinely believed that I was willingly staying up and well... Needless to say I have no professional network and most of my friends thought I was a massive flake and those connections fell apart, too. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Even diagnosed with insomnia I still feel massive guilt about not being able to sleep like a normal person. I just ruin everyone's plans around me. If I need to be up I have to hope my medication works (when employed) and if it does I need an hour to wake up enough to feel safe doing anything major like cooking or driving.

Sorry for the ramble. Appropriately I've been up for like 34 hours and am hoping these OTC meds kick in.

Hope y'all have a great weekend.

Just curious what meds you take for this.

Prescribed or OTC?

I relate so much. I'm on some heavy hitting medication to manage it which no doubt will have their own consequences for me. Feels like there's no winning.

Yes, what are the "heavy hitting meds" for sleep, please?

Hey, I feel that. Lots of people think I'm a flake. And I use the word "inverted" frequently to describe my state to my friends/girlfriend/clients when it gets too far outside social norms ;)

Just a piece of unsolicited advice: I learned to make a virtue out of it. I'm a solo software dev and I have to maintain big pieces of code that run 24/7. Well, my virtue is that I've been available 24/7 to my clients for the last 20 years. And one of the results of that has been that they've never abandoned me and gone to larger companies to deal with software issues. My own schedule is so variable, it doesn't really matter if I'm asleep or awake or what time zone they're in; if it's not urgent, it goes into my inbox, but if it's urgent, I usually answer the phone immediately. Part of this has been adding layers of support forms so I don't have to wake up to every phone call. But the people who have my cell number get through right away.

The result of that is that I basically get paid $300 every time I have to wake up, which is soul-soothing enough to prevent me from being angry. And the rest of the time I can sleep whenever I feel like it.

Being on a 32:12 hour cycle could have massive rewards. Clients are extremely appreciative, especially if you break your sleep for something important. Like, don't be afraid to tell your clients about your sleep cycle. Getting through admitting that was probably the biggest breakthrough of my career. My girlfriend loves that I'm still up working and make her breakfast at 4am when she's headed for work some days, or make her dinner when she comes home at night others. It's always a surprise, I tell her. You just have to find people who appreciate the energy you bring.

Yes, the "straight world" of people with 9-5 jobs and kids absolutely abhors this lifestyle and thinks it's irresponsible and flakey. But then again, they don't get paid $300 for waking up in the middle of the day ;) My friends (and girlfriends) are lyft drivers, waiters, coders, night shift workers, and other people who spurn daylight society. We are legion.

For a bit of alternate perspective, I had a happy life until a night shift worker moved in next to me, and began setting off alarms, cooking and leaving at variable times while experimenting with their sleep. They explained how they could sleep through everything. Completely oblivious to why the building wanted them to leave(I'm not saying this is the same for you).

Maybe that is what this study is capturing.

I lived in an apartment and with my grandparents as an early adult. I do my best to keep all my noises down to a minimum and I live in my own home. When I get new speakers I walk the perimeter to see the levels I can set it to without it being heard. I've got good hearing, though, as a result. My televisions and computers are constantly at single digit volume levels.

I can't imagine subjecting anyone to disturbances while sleeping.

Unfortunately, while I'm medicated I can't help sleeping through alarms so my last partner refused to cohabitate at night. I understood but it didn't help things.

I appreciate it. The issue I have is that while clients love being able to get a hold of me out at all hours my employer fires me for being five minutes late.

I use the term inverted to describe my circadian rhythm but people who don't see me physically suffer from being awake for days don't get it. My folks think I'm making it up and my friends get it but also don't.

Have you tried magnesium l-threonate, sub-milligram melatonin, or CBN? The first two have been very effective for me and the latter seems promising, but I don’t have that much trouble getting to sleep so I’m curious if they’re effective for someone with real difficulties.

I take 1mg melatonin and at no less than 50mg doxy succinate a night to try to sleep. Maybe a few days every few weeks it just won't work so I'm stuck being awake for hours while feeling super tired and groggy and then I'll be awake again the next night like I got a full night's sleep.

I have no idea what CBN is. Not intentionally tried the magnesium but I can keep an eye out. I'm between jobs so I can't really afford to get up and buy things too often but I'll add it to my list to look for.

IIRC first generation antihistamines are not good for your brain when taken chronically in higher doses, I would definitely look into those effects.

CBN is a federally legal cannabinoid that is reportedly pretty good for sleep, not causing intoxication or interfering with REM like THC does.

I have not tried it, although I do regularly use THC (also not good for the brain) for sleep that, along with a meal, reliably gets me asleep very quickly, although unfortunately without noticeable dreams and with a distinct laziness in the morning, but with these negatives somewhat mitigated when magnesium l-threonate is added.

Oh, I'm definitely less sharp than I was ten years ago. I struggle with learning new info now. Unfortunately, $10 a month to sleep is affordable. I will look at CBN but CBD doesn't really move the needle much for other issues. I'll check it out all the same. Anything I can do to be rid of them would be great. I've got a prescription for sleep aids but without a job I don't have health insurance and thus cannot afford it. I don't qualify for low income programs, either, so I'm just screwed. Mess with my brain so I can function or be a zombie over half of my waking period.

Sorry that that’s the situation you’re dealing with. Yeah CBN seems to be about 2-3x that price, although there is a tincture[0] from harbor city hemp that contains 600 standard doses for $80, but that would be absurd to get without experiencing efficacy first. There’s a small chance a local smoke shop or hemp shop (will have more reliable/safe products than former) would have something for a better price. You’ve probably already done this, but pharmacies offer various discounts that you could ask about as well.

https://harborcityhemp.com/product/ultra-potency-cbn-tinctur...

I do appreciate the information. I cannot afford the doctor's visit much less prescription even with a discount. This is what my country wants for me so I'll just deal until I am productive enough to deserve healthcare again.

Many years ago, at college, I stayed in town for a summer rather than going back home or elsewhere. I had a coding job with no fixed hours (and working in a windowless basement), and no friends in town. So I tried the “sleep when I want” experiment. IIRC I settled into about a 26-hour cycle.

Experiments where people aren't told what time it is end up with them gravitating towards a 25-26 hour day. So you're totally normal.

Wikipedia [0] criticises these experiments and says they didn't account for electric light, which apparently lengthens the cycle. So to rephrase, people with any access whatsoever to electric light favour a 25-26 hour day. You're still totally normal, but it explains you may have better outcomes with annoying interventions like "no artificial light in the last few hours of the evening".

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

I actually experimented with that. I allowed myself two candles, which I found was enough to read by and plenty for navigating my house.

Soon, all night time electric lighting seemed batshit crazy. Dozens of times too bright. Of course we all can’t fucking sleep. It’s so wildly much brighter than necessary.

I gave it up after a few weeks because it’s pretty much impossible to keep up if you’re ever around other people in the evening (and I have a family, so…) and they’re not entirely on-board, or just need to get stuff done at night because life is busy (again: I have a family) and everything about modern scheduling and activities assumes you can do things for hours after sun-down.

But, the experience did convince me that 95% of “night owls” and serious trouble sleeping are just the obvious and natural consequence of crazy-bright nighttime lighting and hyper-stimulating electronic home entertainment (which all also emits light, so I was shunning that stuff after dark too during my experiment). We have a sleeplessness epidemic? Gee I wonder if it’s because we light up our houses like a carnival and then put a world’s fair x100 at our finger tips. Like, yes, of course it’s that.

I’ve since discovered that low-dose weed gummies also get the job done with no side effects (aside from allowing me an hour or so of giggly TV watching right before bed, if I want it—oh no, what a tragedy), for me, and are far more compatible with modern life. Kinda lame to have to medicate my way out of the human body and mind of course not being able to cope with what we all do to them after dark, through.

I’ve used the analogy on here before, but imagine some 18th century emperor or king complained to his physician that he’d been lighting up his palace and grounds every night as bright possible and hosting a weeks-long 24/7 festival featuring the world’s finest entertainers (including the rather lewd sorts), intellectuals, travelers and philosophers, jesters and players, and, well, for some reason he’s having trouble falling asleep at a decent hour. LOL fucking yeah, dude, no wonder.

But we do that and then go “man I wonder if maybe I need a better pillow or to get more vitamin D” or whatever. Seriously?

Weed gummies used to work like a charm for me, up until my late 30s, but in the past few years even the low-THC ones leave me extremely groggy the next day. Although I get a great sleep, it isn't worth it anymore for how long it takes me to come back to full function. I keep them around for emergencies when I need to go to sleep.

I keep my lights very low in the hours before I go to bed, and use candles, and mostly read books rather than electronic devices. But one thing I'd point out is that - I live fairly far north. At this time of the year, there is very little direct sunlight at all. Whole days can be as dark as 6am, and the sun will be setting before 5pm soon. There is a balance, in the winter, when without bright electric light you could never really wake up. And sometimes it feels like living on a space station, because if you're a night owl that's the only light you get. I've had modestly good results from using a "happy lamp" during the darkest days. Just pointing out that - although I agree with you about clamping down on carnival lights at night - there is an opposite extreme which can cause people to go into a sort of seasonal hibernation.

> I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day

To be fair, we're all like this. The average length of Circadian Cycle is closer to 25h than 24h when isolated: https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/info/cycle_length.ph...

I was all ready to agree because I always feel I want >24h, but that link is actually correcting earlier studies finding 25h to say no it is more like 24h on average (once isolated from screens)?

I used to do this as well sort of, my schedule would shift by a few hours every day. I found that it had a significant impact on my mental health when I was sleeping through the day though, and it made it difficult to participate in various aspects of society like work, education and in person social things. I was eventually able to “fix” it by taking melatonin as a supplement to fix a short term schedule and being super anal about not letting people pressure me into playing games late or staying out late. I basically reframed sleeping hygiene as a primary health concern and that worked for me.

Anyway if your schedule doesn’t impact you in a negative way then go for it

I really hoped I’d grow out of wanting to sleep ~3-11am but it’s just never happened. No matter how tired I am during the day, I get a second wind around 8pm and have to force myself to go to bed at a reasonable hour during the work week because I won’t get sleepy, even if I stay away from screens.

Unfortunately I really enjoy night time, so I regularly completely fail at that task. I can’t remember the last time I woke up feeling rested, and yet here I am on Hacker News at 1:48am. At least I can sleep in tomorrow.

Do you drink any caffeine?

Usually just one cup of coffee on weekday mornings, but in general caffeine does not seem to perk me up, keep me awake, or have any noticeable effect besides jump starting my digestive system. I could (and have done, in the past) have a coffee at 2am and go to sleep around 3 no problem.

In my adult life I have ranged between 5-6 cups a day when I used to go into the office and none at all during periods where I just fell out of the habit of making any.

>> besides jump starting my digestive system

lol. Same here. Keeping your digestive system on track with your sleep cycle deserves a whole separate discussion. For those of us who've discovered coffee and cigarettes, usually the sight of one or the other is enough to get ya goin'

My buddy refers to it as “the strike” heh. First coffee (or cigarette for him) of the day, you better be near a bathroom.

Getting up at 11 sounds workable though. I have a colleague that regularly starts at 11, may be having sleep issues (they mentioned something but I don't know if that's always the reason), nobody seems to mind. My problem is that, during holidays, 13:37 seems to somehow be a very common time for me to get out of bed (suspiciously often around that minute, making me think it's a bias rather than coincidence)... so more like going to bed when the sun and birds would otherwise get annoying to fall asleep with

People speak of teenagers having a different sleep cycle but I'm now suspecting that, rather than that you'd grow out of your body's schedule, it's just that you don't complain to your toddler and expect them to understand and shift your job of entertaining them to later in the day. Same story at work; also a factor most teenagers don't have in the same way. So you suck it up and fall into a new rhythm that kinda works too

Looking back, I think that I was chronically exhausted as a teenager. I was always on 5 or less hours of sleep. At that age, you have the metabolism to wake up and have a full day without feeling sleepy. But I've always wondered about why militaries deprive their recruits of sleep, except right before battle, or why school systems do - and I think it's simply that people are more malleable when they're chronically tired. Yes, you can get used to it, and your adrenaline will still kick in when necessary. But you're not performing as a fully cognizant human being. Teenagers, however, don't need to be fully cognizant of anything anyway... so it all works out.

For me I think the only way I could make it work would be to be self employed and work a shorter day. My job wants me online from 9am, and my wife keeps a “normal” schedule so starting an 8 hour work day at 11 would seriously cut into our time together in the evening.

Methods that work for me, a lifelong “natural” (lol, nope) night owl:

1) No nighttime lighting brighter than a single-digit count of candles. No glowing screens after dark, either. Within a couple days I was no longer a “night owl”. Go figure, it was all fake, all those years.

2) A few mg of THC edible 90 minutes before I want to be asleep.

Do you still get noticeable REM sleep with the THC? In my own experience, albiet with higher dosage and smoked so significantly shorter half life, is that I have subjectively instant sleep latency but I do not dream (unless I take magnesium, in which case I have anxiety-type dreams that I can remember very brief flashed of). Do you notice anything in the morning, like maybe a dull sort of haze?

They work great for me, good sleep quality and no grogginess.

I’d tried prescription sleep aids in the past and did have issues with grogginess. Between that, needing timing to be pretty precise for the grogginess not to be even worse, and having to choose between “glass of wine” and “be able to sleep”, those had enough down-sides that it didn’t really work out (the “still feel shitty in the morning” bit was definitely the worst part)

I have found that, when I do succeed in forcing myself into bed at a normal time, I can “brute force” tiredness quicker by reading on my Kobo with low brightness. Honestly the part I struggle most with is actually just going to bed, there’s a strong psychological aspect to it.

As for your two points, they’re not super practical for me, at least not for a big chunk of the year. From now until about February it goes dark around 5pm, so that would effectively mean no lights, video games, movies/TV, or browsing on work days. And while weed will succeed in knocking me the hell out, it’s illegal for recreational use here, and very difficult to get a medical prescription, so it’s not something I have regular access to.

If you're going 3-11, that's 8 hrs...

I'm the king of getting a second wind, but it's usually alcohol-driven. Curtailing food and booze about 3 hrs before sleep, watching a little Mentour Pilot or reading a book, I'll conk out before I planned to. Avoiding the second wind is a discussion in itself.

Problem is the rest of my life is incompatible with waking up at 11. My job wants to me available from 9am and even if that wasn’t the case my wife—perfectly understandably—would not be too happy with me working until 19:30 or 20:00 as that would massively cut into our time in the evenings. Hence why I wish I’d grown out of it.

+1 for Mentour Pilot, love his videos

I think everyone gets a second wind in the late hours.

I used to have a schedule where I would start nodding off at 8PM and had to sleep, then wake up within 10 minutes of 4AM the next morning. My whole day was on such a routine, I never had to check the time. I could tell by temperature, sun, what I was doing, how I felt (hungry, tired) what time it was. I would be at my highest energy for the first hours after waking up. Then my energy would plunge during midday. Then it would build back up leading into the evening until I couldn't keep my eyes open anymore. Maybe 4 to 8PM I would be at good energy until I hit the abrupt cliff. I guess I was sort of a morning AND night person. I had to train my body to get on this schedule.

I’ve been in this situation and the problem is basically that the various internal clocks aren’t getting good quality information to keep them in sync. Light, food, and exercise and the timing of them have a big impact.

After I quit my day job and started freelancing, I actually saw my sleep schedule worsen. It partly had to do with the initial lack of projects and clients, and other challenges of freelancing itself, but what I observed was that my day job's grind or regular schedule also helped my sleep schedule.

However, I eventually overcame those challenges and created my own schedule to work with, and my sleep cycle became better then onwards.

How did you fill your schedules despite your initial lack of projects?

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