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Comment by zetazzed | Hacker News Reader

I'm still surprised the "dumb phone for kids" and "dumb watch with basic comms" markets are so underdeveloped (from my perspective). I would love my kids to have (a) gps tracking, (b) ability to send texts/calls to like 5 predefined numbers, (c) tell the time, and nothing else. But watches all seem to have games or weird gamified fitness trackers (Google's new fitbit for kids). Or they are super kid-ish, like bright blue with animal icons, and would be revolting to my older kids. That would make it easy to wait until 9th grade for a more feature-rich phone, though maybe still not unfettered access.

Does anyone have a basic watch/dumbphone solution for older kids that they like?

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Everyone has a different threshold for what they want from a dumb phone, some wants Google Maps, some think Youtube is ok, Google Chrome etc. which makes it hard to have a one true dumb phone. If you give access to the play store it's no longer a dumb phone

The best way to have a dumb phone tailored to your needs is to take a cheap smartphone and make it dumb, either by using a different launcher, or a customized OS

I wish there was an easy to customize "dumb android os" that would let you pick initial applications you want to have, and then disable play store

It’s true. My daughter didn’t have a phone until 9th grade, which she just started. She had talked about getting a dumb phone because she wasn’t very into the smartphone thing, which I was supportive of. However she now takes public transit to high school, and really wanted the Transit app so she could easily navigate in the city. So, an iPhone is where we landed.

And I have to say, it is astounding how quickly that thing got its hooks into her. I naively thought she might have been immune to it, given her habits and attitude. Boy was I wrong.

It's a real addiction, no matter how resistant you are.

I'm 44. I've never had social media accounts. When I was 18 or so, I had a Palm Pilot with a cellular modem cradle that let you actually go to (mostly text-based) websites. It was the first smart phone, really. Amazing for finding information, for someone who didn't even have dial-up internet until 5 years earlier. But eventually I put the Palm Pilot away. It wasn't really addicting (and it was insanely nerdy to walk around with a computer connected to the internet, in your pocket like that).

I militantly avoided owning anything beyond a flip phone again until I was 36 (2016), when I finally caved in and grudgingly bought a cheap Android phone to work on a mobile game. (For the first 6 months of development, I'd just written and tested it under emulation, but bug reports were getting too hard to reproduce). Six months after that, I found myself doom-scrolling on the damn thing every time I had a free moment.

What I noticed during my smartphone-free years of watching people play with theirs were a few things: They weren't considered nerdy. They weren't considered computers. The social awkwardness of looking at a device in public had changed into a shield for people against the social awkwardness of looking at their surroundings or acknowledging other people. People forgot how to interact and how to sit and wait without doing something with their phone. Doing something with the phone was more than passively sipping a drink or smoking a cigarette; it was a way to show other people that they didn't want to interact. Or a way to hide from interaction.

I think this has to do with the way apps are structured. The vast majority of people never needed a computer in their pocket. Computers were for information and for work. I think of smartphones and the current app ecosystem as more like a swiss-army-knife of spyware and ad tech shoved into a package with as many sensors as possible, to monitor the population. And so, it had better be addictive. Because the underlying act of looking at one and spending so much time with one is, and always has been, antisocial and therefore somewhat repulsive. It took a great amount of marketing to normalize it, and people still rebel against it.

> I think of smartphones and the current app ecosystem as more like a swiss-army-knife of spyware and ad tech shoved into a package with as many sensors as possible, to monitor the population. And so, it had better be addictive. Because the underlying act of looking at one and spending so much time with one is, and always has been, antisocial and therefore somewhat repulsive. It took a great amount of marketing to normalize it, and people still rebel against it.

I just wanted to highlight this section of your post for anyone skimming to have more of a chance of seeing it. Excellently put.

I would add - and think it's essential - that yes it took a great amount of marketing, but also a great amount of people who could have said or done something turning a blind eye and not sounding the alarm. I'm thinking mainly of developers who were happy bringing home a fat paycheck, and governments who were happy to have more information about their populations.

I'm happy to say I never built a free-to-pay game. I was only interested in casual arcade stuff you could play in 2 minutes while waiting for a bus. I considered anything with virtual goods to be unethical. Hate me if you must.

Still, I think gambling can be ethical. If done right. Giving a fair shot at a 97% average payback to consenting adults is at least as good as selling them garbage tokens.

So a bit of a side-track: I did design a slot machine (Flash, online) back in 2010, that let you build up bonuses and see how many multipliers you had built up until you were ready to use them on the next spins. That was when I was running my casino. I thought it clever. A player could use them at any time.

I tried to get that slot machine design approved through the Nevada Gaming Control Board, and they told me it would be illegal. A machine couldn't have a "memory" like that, which would entice players to keep adding money to get back their built-up bonuses. I countered that the player could run the bonus feature at any time, but, apparently even that violated the rules. If the player ran out of money, they'd still need to add more to trigger the bonus they'd accrued.

Flash forward to this year, I'm in Vegas and basically every slot machine is some variation of the fireworks/dragon machine where 3 separate bonuses build up over time... but not in any clear way, and where the last part of the bonus could take forever to actually be hit. Nor can the player force their bonuses into play. I dumped $700 on a machine, $100 at a time, explaining to my partner why this type of game was illegal 10 years ago, until I gave up on the SOB.

I'm mentioning this because, as a dev of casino games, I myself would have considered that type of game to be completely unethical. I don't specifically blame the devs; I think regulatory capture by companies like Bally has a lot to do with it. We had laws that prevented the worst kinds of addictive stuff from being peddled to the public, and those have been directly attacked and chipped away at.

I only have to look at my own phone habits to know that expecting any better from my children is probably unreasonable.

This is a great point. Kids can detect hypocrisy a mile away. Parents cannot, with a straight face, tell their kids to not be addicted to their smartphones when they themselves are addicted to their own smartphone.

Out of curiosity, what are her phone habits like? And, as others have mentioned, you can turn on parental controls to limit what apps she can have on it. Have you done this already?

I started describing the situation and then realized doing so is a breach of her privacy, so deleted my comment. I did have parental controls on it in terms of the apps she has access to, but had not limited the time spent (my mistake). I wish there was also a way to limit the number of pickups.

No worries that you deleted it, can understand that you want to be cautious with your child:)

Btw, I actually don't have a child so haven't used parental controls, but just found out that they do have an app time-limit setting: https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/set-up-screen-time-ip....

yeah, I have an app blocker on my iphone to block news websites/apps called Freedom. Essential these days to staying productive - although, don't think this app would work for your child, because it is not very reliable and needs to be restarted every few days.

I use the built in iOS controls for my kids and they are generally sufficient

Just took a look at the app limit features in parental controls, seems really useful:)

That’s sad but probably inevitable. Is there room for something like a personal Garmin navigation device? Does that already exist?

Either Android or iPhones can be customized. The parent has to take the time to sit down and set it up.

The iPhone has a lot of parental setting customization. You can disable certain built in apps, prevent installing anything from the App Store or just prevent making purchases, set screen time restrictions, and a whole bunch of other things [1].

Android has similar settings with Family Link [2].

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/105121

[2] https://www.androidauthority.com/android-parental-controls-e...

Isn't this what Family link [1] is for ?

Or you can get an iPhone and use parental controls. My kids has a tablet and I get to decide what can be used and for how long, and nothing gets installed without my approval.

[1] https://families.google/familylink/

Apple is really dropping the ball here, there are serious issues with parental controls on iOS.

No way to revoke install permission. e.g. child got ahold of a parent's unlocked phone, turned off parent approval for their own phone, and then installed a social media app. We have uninstalled the app, but he can re-install without requesting permissions. We have resorted to a 1-minute (the minimum) screen time limit instead. (Only work around would be to create a whole new iCloud account for the child!)

You used to be able to delete the purchase from purchase history, but now you can only hide it, hiding it should just retrigger the approval process?

There are well known / well documented ways to circumvent screen time limits.

You can't add additional pass code / authentication for the settings app or the parental controls

No way to prevent deletion of messages and call logs (and 3rd party tools just do a remote sync on Wi-Fi, after the kids already likely deleted them)

Parental controls are often janky or laggy and sometimes just don't work at all. And often require multiple re-authentication (iOS 18 / Face ID does improve this to be fair)

Your comment reads a bit silly to me. It’s like your child has control over this situation instead of you, and you’re trying your hardest to negotiate a good position for yourself.

If your child doesn’t use the phone in the way you want them to, you could take the phone away.

Had the exact same reaction, this seems like an IT administrator parenting through IT controls at work.

Do you have children yourself?

I have one child who is not yet of relevant age.

Nothing gets installed without 2 approvals, and 3 confirmations with your passcode. I really wish they’d fix all that duplication.

That is the worst thing to do as it means at least one parent and as many kids need to have google accounts.

> some wants Google Maps

There was a Java ME version of Google Maps. I had it on my flip-phone in 2006/2007.

I doubt it still exists, though.

Smart watches were banned in our kids primary school as some of them have cameras and were used to take inappropriate photos. We have finally decided for an analog watch and no tracking as we live in a safe neighborhood and they know most of the neighbors.

Did you ban pens and eye glasses too? Love places that make rules that prevent nothing from the offenders but make it worse for everyone else. If they had a hidden camera in a smartwatch they'll have a hidden camera in some other cheap gizmo.

Gabb seems to be the closest, but even that has a "virtual pet" type game built in that gamifies certain things.

I've also done an android phone with an MDM in kiosk mode. None of those let you limit who is contacted though, so it ends up being more like a classic dumb phone in that you can't browse the web, but can dial whomever you want. Just make sure that you disable the Google SMS app and use a stripped down one (I used simple-sms).

I can buy my kid a very cheap android phone and lock it down to only run a couple of select apps.

The advantage of this is that it is as smart or dumb as I allow it to be.

Now that she is a little older (8th grade) I've slowly increased the allowed apps and screen time. She is able to do really useful things with it.

So in short: you can make a smart phone dumb, but you can't make a dumb phone smart.

I would submit map functionality to the list as well. I think it would be healthy for a kid old enough to tell time to experiment with navigating, maybe following along on their map on drives.

This problem was quite well solved by a kids learning their way around using their eyes and good paper map.

(I miss paper maps. They were actually designed to confer understanding — in particular, every street showed a name! Smartphone navigation apps and navigation websites often don’t show names any more.)

I agree that spending time with a really good map is like reading a book and confers more understanding than a map app. Map apps are pretty crumby, presumably because they're crammed into a screen. Paper maps are still a thing, I was at a book store the other day with a really big paper map section. In particular I enjoy geologic maps; they add depth and history to the landscape around you.

Map apps are much faster for navigation though. At least on the scale of walking a few blocks.

I think the problem is it's not a defensible business because there's little barrier to entry to create an Android watch with less features. Every carrier has their own dumb, minimal smart watches, but I'm sure most of them suck because the product management is probably outsourced.

Essential features and nonfunctional requirements:

- Calendar, time and date, alarms and reminders

- IP67

- Ruby or gorilla glass screen (scratches OK)

- Locked-down phone, texting, messaging, and location sharing

- Ability to call 911

- Minimal apps

- Minimal animation

- Band that's somewhat difficult to undo and hypoallergenic material... silicone seems pretty neutral

- Not disassemblable without tools because the kids I know would have them in pieces in minutes.

- Neither a fashion statement nor a kid group social faux pas

If any existing models fulfill these close enough, then great. If not, then it might be worth entertaining but would need a go-to-market strategy to compete with every other smartwatch mfgr on the market with unlimited funding.

lol, I know someone who got his kid a "dumb" flip phone figuring that would solve things. Pretty soon, his kid was showing me how it was android underneath and all the apps he had sideloaded.

Samsung has partnered with Safesurfer in NZ to create a "kid safe" social media free version of the Galaxy A15 and A25. Not a samsung / android fan tbh.

My daughter has a normal android phone with Google Family Link and tons of builtin apps removed and websites blocked. The parental controls are pretty good.

Gotta agree here. The only apps that aren't blocked are the phone itself, messages, and a few games. Doesn't even have a browser on it much less social media. It's really been fantastic in letting her have a phone for communication, and technically she can text her friends if they want to, but no social media. It's pretty close to a dumb phone really. The location tracking alone is worth it, to me.

My only annoyance came when she turned 13, and Google decided to offer her complete freedom without parental consent. Left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth about the project, which is a shame.

Thanks for the warning, I guess I'll need to watch out for that in a few years.

It was scummy, because naturally it will always cause tension. I feel the right way would have been to approach us. Instead they approach the child who will always click freedom. They also sent us parents an email letting us know she's free to do as she wishes and we're SOL.

We told her she could stay under Family Link, or else buy her own phone and service. That seems effective.

Sorry Google, I'll decide my childrens' internet access. Not your giant advertising machine.

But you don't need any of this? The parental lock out settings on Android and iOS are superb - you can buy any modern smartphone, and lock out everything you want so it acts like a dumbphone with a nice screen - i.e. disable the web browser, disable app installs etc.

I see this comment a lot and it seems to mostly highlight that people aren't investigating the very capable tools which already exist.

You can get a basic flip phone from tracfone with a year of service (calls and text only, no mobile data) for $20-40. You can keep that plan but change to a regular smartphone and use google family app for parental controls.

I got my child an AppleWatch SE (a few years ago), which yeah, technically has a bunch of apps but they're not really useful or of interest to them, and if they don't have social media accounts (which mine don't), then it acts as a phone and locater without all the rest.

On the downside they kept begging for a phone so they could text their friends, which was reasonable, and texting on the Watch is a terrible experience. So we finally did give in to a phone but with locked down parental controls, so they can't install apps, etc. (though I'm finding those iOS parental controls don't work as well I had hoped; there's a huge issue with them being reset suddenly -- lots of forums of people complaining about this).

If it’s like an iPhone (or Mac!) you can disable all the apps you don’t want them to use.

Apple parental controls are great. Except on the AppleTV. I just want PIN unlock for any apps not on an allow-list. This does not seem like much to ask. But no.

Do you have a Mac at home? I wonder if a middle ground could have been reached by providing space and time for iMessage on the computer. It would be like the old IM days!

The iPhone has restricted access mode, to limit access to bad stuff, typically used for child gateways.

It also has assistive access mode, which only permits access to good stuff, mostly to simplify UI's for the elderly, et al.

Both put the burden of integration on the configuring user, who basically becomes the system UI designer with a limited and awkward palette.

A nice feature in either case would be a way to edit, package and share or sell such configurations.

Indeed, I could see Apple building out this capability as a product line architecture supporting enterprise, health, and childhood/education.

Yes. The Timex smart watch is perfect for this. You can find them on eBay for $20. You can get a SIM that works with T-Mobile usually. The only issue is that sometimes they are locked and getting them unlocked is some work. But I love these watches.

I'm using the watch for older people. There is a sport watch, which I think has an esim. I have one of these but haven't been able to use it yet.

Feel free to ask me more over email if you want. It's on my profile page. I definitely went down the rabbit hole on finding this watch and it was a doozy.

Sounds like Xplora [1] to me. I assume they have an English-language site but failed to find it and it's late, sorry.

[1]: https://xplora.se/

US: https://shop.myxplora.com/ UK: https://xplora.co.uk/

We've used both gabb and an apple watch and they both work decently well. The apple watch has a few too many features by default but it's not as engrossing as a smartphone. The gabb watch was great overall. We switched from gabb -> apple at the end of 6th grade because we felt like our daughter had reached a point of being able to ignore the distractions of the watch in most settings and for the most part that's worked out well. We upgraded specifically to allow texting/IM'ing friends, which may or may not be within what some people want happening.

I will note that having her be able to call us is fantastic. There's a lot of end-of-school "hey you need to walk home today / walk over to my office / oh wait i'll pick you up" kind of coordination, which we could probably avoid with careful advance planning but it's really nice to be able to be flexible.

And also, youtube shorts / tiktok are the most addictive thing I've seen put in front of a child that age. She can browse YT shorts on her school computer at home (!!) and it's .. it's really stunning how absorbing it is for her. And not in a good way.

Our friends basically locked down an old phone to just the apps they approve of. Their 8-year-old is home alone for about an hour after school, and they don't have a landline.

We plugged in an old phone to a wall outlet, and just keep it locked with a pin. It allows for emergency calls. There is almost always someone home, so we don't feel the need to allow our kids to call us.

Another set of friends trusts their 11-year-old with full access.

I'm not a parent, but I see why someone might want to always know exactly where there child is and invest in anything which might improve their safety.

On the other hand, raising children without GPS surveillance seemed to work pretty well for many years. Is saying something like "Put on your timex and be back home by 6." no longer feasible? (Or if you want be even more old school "by sundown".)

https://www.thelightphone.com/

This is exactly what the Fitbit Ace LTE does. So far it's been great since my daughter has no desire to ask anything else on it besides increase physical activity to get prizes

Also interested in this - the Apple Watch for Kids setup seems a possibility, but it's only available in certain countries

They already make this. Gizmo on Verizon. SyncUp on T-Mobile. Garmin bounce if you’re ok with them only being able to send voice memos and not call.

I didn't have a phone at all until I was in high school! Looking back on all the times that I was tragically killed or maimed as a result, it's a miracle I'm able to write this comment today!

I'm glad to see high schools pushing back on this. My college student had classes their first two years that required a smartphone in order to participate in class. Failure to procure an Android or Apple device that could run the app they used was an automatic 20% markdown on one's final grade for non-participation.

A friend shared a photo of a wall organizer that (middle school?) kids put their phones into during class. Even though I'm now long out of school, that they sort of have to adapt or else it will really affect the educational outcomes.

I don't think people failing out of college really has the same stigma for the institution. I wonder if in fact it would even help with the prestige somehow.

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